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Made in lt
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Hello,

Recently I had tried to explain that Abbadon is not an incompetent commander and in fact is the most dangerous individual in the galaxy. His achievements arguably are greater than one's of the Emperor like uniting Chaos, killing few Primarchs and all that while refusing to be a servant to any Chaos god in return. Something that even Horus did not managed to. I was showing how each Black Crusade achieved its goal, how Abbadon only grew in power and how cunning he was in choosing not to go all out against Imperium, but space himself through 13'th Crusades and slowly increase might of his forces while Imperium only decayed.

I do realize that lore was changed and issues with models only made it force, but ignoring more recent changes it would be like thinking that Squats are still official part of w40k. Yet, they delude themselves into thinking that they are right. That they do follow official lore and I'm wrong then every example in the lore speaks the opposite.


One of more recent examples of IG fanboyism was in Battlefleet Gothic Armada video game where chaos is portrayed like saturday cartoon villains, creaming empty threats and having nothing relevant to say. Worse yet, they do not shower why Chaos is so enticing and how they are ultimately right. Even though, expecting for IG fanboy to understand why Chaos is ultimately right about this universe and nature of humanity is like asking Christian to use its reason. It is pointless since these two groups long forgotten how to think for themselves. Their beliefs are now that defines them and that makes them, them. Questioning that they believe is like question their own inherent worth as human beings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, I do want to know why it is so hard to accept that Abbadon is in fact extremely competent individual. It is only natural and logical to everyone who knows at least basic gak about Chaos. Chaos do not tolerate weakness. Nuff said...

I do realize that it might tickle a lot of fanboys in a wrong way or I might appear arrogant, but I'm way beyond such mortal concerns. I know that I'm right. I was forced to check wikis far too many times and I read far too much of w40k lore in order to know that I'm right in this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/17 11:56:36


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So, I do want to know why it is so hard to accept that Abbadon is in fact extremely competent individual. It is only natural and logical to everyone who knows at least basic gak about Chaos. Chaos do not tolerate weakness. Nuff said...


Because the problem is for the longest time, the whole "Crusades have goals!" Was not a major thing for each Black Crusade from the beginning and as a result it's gotten stuck in.

Of course there's other problems that tend to stick even with recent stuff, like people wondering why Ultramarines are pushed so hard in the Space Marine Codex (Because it was originally Codex: Ultramarines), Grey Knights killing Sisters of Battle for a blood ritual (When they used to slaughter entire worlds that knew of them or daemons before without care of the populace)..

It's just not going to change, people are going to constantly get themselves over various subjects, it doesn't help that much of this tends to stem from /tg/ and 1d4chan.


One of more recent examples of IG fanboyism was in Battlefleet Gothic Armada video game where chaos is portrayed like saturday cartoon villains, creaming empty threats and having nothing relevant to say.


Considering that Battle Fleet Gothics campaign is based on.. Well Battle Fleet Gothic, which was introduced back in 3rd edition, also known as the "Grimmest GrimDark version" where Chaos really WAS like that... Remember that this edition when Alpha Legion was more using Cultists because they were more like suicide bombing terrorists rather then plotters and elaborate scheme makers they've become today.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/17 12:31:03


 
   
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He hasn't united Chaos, to my knowledge he hasn't killed any Primarchs and refusing to serve Chaos is no big deal. Almost all Eldar and Space Marines do that. Big whoop.

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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So, I do want to know why it is so hard to accept that Abbadon is in fact extremely competent individual. It is only natural and logical to everyone who knows at least basic gak about Chaos. Chaos do not tolerate weakness. Nuff said...


Because the problem is for the longest time, the whole "Crusades have goals!" Was not a major thing for each Black Crusade from the beginning and as a result it's gotten stuck in.

Of course there's other problems that tend to stick even with recent stuff, like people wondering why Ultramarines are pushed so hard in the Space Marine Codex (Because it was originally Codex: Ultramarines), Grey Knights killing Sisters of Battle for a blood ritual (When they used to slaughter entire worlds that knew of them or daemons before without care of the populace)..

It's just not going to change, people are going to constantly get themselves over various subjects, it doesn't help that much of this tends to stem from /tg/ and 1d4chan.

^This.

Originally the black crusades were all failed attempts to attack the imperium, then GW realised that their biggest bad guy had never actually accomplished anything so they changed the black crusades to make it seem as though Abaddon succeeded in finding a relic or testing the imperiums defences.

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pm713 wrote:
He hasn't united Chaos, to my knowledge he hasn't killed any Primarchs and refusing to serve Chaos is no big deal. Almost all Eldar and Space Marines do that. Big whoop.


Refusing to serve, whilst benefitting from them, is unique to Abbadon. Eldar and imperial marines aren't carrying any marks of chaos. I think the unity comes from the fact that they all support him, so he is a warrior they are all agreed upon who will cause the most, well, chaos.

The main issue I think is that he's been around for 18 years without any story progression. It makes him seem like a stagnant threat, rather than an imminent one. Hopefully the black crusade supplements and likely new model will restore him to his intended status.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/17 13:28:43


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IIRC, he killed a clone of Horus. Does that count as a Primarch ?

   
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he killed Sigismund, that's not a Primarch but still that dude was a badass.

really, the thing is that Chaos has for a long time BEEN treated like bumbling 80s saturday morning cartoon villains, like your Cobra Commander or Megatron who is built up to be this supreme badass that threatens the world, only to have their crazy schemes (which get crazier) easily thwarted by the good guys time and time again after basically accomplishing nothing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/17 13:56:52


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 Ernestas wrote:
Hello,

Even though, expecting for IG fanboy to understand why Chaos is ultimately right about this universe and nature of humanity is like asking Christian to use its reason. It is pointless since these two groups long forgotten how to think for themselves. Their beliefs are now that defines them and that makes them, them. Questioning that they believe is like question their own inherent worth as human beings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, I do want to know why it is so hard to accept that Abbadon is in fact extremely competent individual. It is only natural and logical to everyone who knows at least basic gak about Chaos. Chaos do not tolerate weakness. Nuff said...

I do realize that it might tickle a lot of fanboys in a wrong way or I might appear arrogant, but I'm way beyond such mortal concerns. I know that I'm right. I was forced to check wikis far too many times and I read far too much of w40k lore in order to know that I'm right in this.


You're taking this a bit too serious bud. People take the piss on Abaddon because it's funny. He's tried so hard, but in the end always gets foiled by the heroes and does the "If it weren't for you meddling kids!" thing. Chill, and watch that edge man.

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 Ernestas wrote:
but I'm way beyond such mortal concerns.


Whoa
   
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 toasteroven wrote:
 Ernestas wrote:
but I'm way beyond such mortal concerns.


Whoa


Smells like Heresy.

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WayneTheGame wrote:
really, the thing is that Chaos has for a long time BEEN treated like bumbling 80s saturday morning cartoon villains, like your Cobra Commander or Megatron who is built up to be this supreme badass that threatens the world, only to have their crazy schemes (which get crazier) easily thwarted by the good guys time and time again after basically accomplishing nothing.


This. Both Chaos and Imperial fluff portrays Chaos as the ultimate deadly threat, but this hasn't really been supported anywhere. If anything Imperial purges of suspected Chaotic influence have death tolls several orders of magnitude higher than anything Abaddon has ever accomplished. He's not the biggest enemy of mankind, the IoM itself is.
   
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Automatically Appended Next Post:
The reason nobody is scared of Failbaddon is because he has no arms.

His old metal model had the arms fall off so much I think I've seen them attached exactly one time in real life.

Also, the lore really reeks of a desperate "I meant to do that guys! Honest!" vibe. If you've ever worked with someone who gives lots of excuses, failbaddon is annoyingly similar due to how his lore is treated.

You can claim this was your plan all you want bob, I still don't believe your screw up is helping us, and especially dont believe it's part of some master plan.

I mean look at his name! HE HAS "BAD" IN HIS NAME! Thatd be like an Ultramarines character named Failius Maximus.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/17 15:09:52


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I don't accept the changed lore regarding Abigail. He's going to continue being a failure in my eyes, plus that's what the gods want. They want continuing chaos, not a successful campaign. Get a cocky guy that thinks he came do it and you got yourself what you need.

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 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I mean look at his name! HE HAS "BAD" IN HIS NAME! Thatd be like an Ultramarines character named Failius Maximus.


To be fair, that is not because he is bad in general, his fellow captains just felt he was really bad at donning his armour.

Hence a bad don.

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I think TVTropes summed this up pretty well.

If Abaddon's end goal is to get to Terra and that each Crusade before the 13th had accomplished it's goal of doing whatever Abaddon wanted, then there's no point in the buildup of them ramming the Cadian Gates; they clearly had some way of sneaking out and back to the Eye without going through that bullcrap.

Like I said in the "Why isn't Kharn a Daemon Prince" thread, this is due to the original writers lacking foresight in addition to not knowing the implications of what they're doing. Abaddon is basically Archaon IN SPACE but Archaon differs from Abaddon in that he's a relatively new champion of Chaos, while Abaddon inherited the title shortly after Horus bit the dust some 10k years ago. This is a huge difference in that the world at large doesn't know about Archaon prior to the "present" of the story and so he can have a ton of minor victories building up to his greatest achievements (and indeed his "black crusade" only had one iteration and it blew up the world).

The other issue with Abaddon is that his goals go directly against what he's been doing for the past 10k years. Asdrubael Vect, arguably the only other villain as old as him, only has survival (and being a bigger dick than Eldrad) as his primary motivation, thus it's understandable that he's basically done jack for the same amount of time; maintaining status quo in Commoragh while he's top dog is basically his end goal. Abaddon's characterization would have gone a lot better if they had implied he spent the last 10k years uniting Chaos. While that sounds like an even greater failure, it's stated numerous times that this has never been done before. Instead it sounds like whenever chaos needs uniting, he just calls the Power Puff Girls hotline and has an army ready, then gets beaten back to the warp for the next pre-13th try.

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Sadly when I view Chaos I view them as how the Deceptions are betrayed in Transformers. Only a few characters but the rest faceless being to look bad ass and be numerous only to loose and not be taken seriously.

Basically like the someone said, Cobra Commander and his whelps or more like Star Wars Storm Troopers, look cool but can't hit the side of a barn.

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Davor wrote:
Sadly when I view Chaos I view them as how the Deceptions are betrayed in Transformers. Only a few characters but the rest faceless being to look bad ass and be numerous only to loose and not be taken seriously.

Basically like the someone said, Cobra Commander and his whelps or more like Star Wars Storm Troopers, look cool but can't hit the side of a barn.


Yes. That's probably the BIGGEST issue I have with Chaos in general. In the fluff, the mere HINT of a Chaos taint gets a world blown up, or gets its population forcibly sterilized and/or sent to to a concentration camp the rest of their life. The First War for Armageddon had basically all the regiments that took part sterilized and then sent off to the corners of space; IIRC they were going to just kill them, and it took Logan Grimnar basically saying if they did that, he'd butcher them all for them to back down, just because they fought against Chaos and saw daemons and saw a Daemon Primarch. Millions were going to be executed, and in the end got basically shunted off to die in some far reach of space, just for the sheer chance that someone was exposed to corruption by Chaos; how's that for a reward for fighting against supernatural horrors. About the only thing besides Chaos that warrants an Exterminatus is the Tyranids.

That's the big problem. Chaos is the ultimate enemy, the foil to Mankind, but in the game? They're a bad joke. The fact that Abaddon has a meme and is essentially stigmatized as being a loser when he's in the fluff supposed to be the Antichrist and the guy who is supposed to finally complete Horus' goal and overthrow mankind speaks volumes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/17 17:30:29


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When a bad guy doesn't succeed in blowing up earth and all the heroes on it, it doesn't make him incompetent it just makes him the bad guy. If you don't like this philosophy then stop watching batman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:

His old metal model had the arms fall off so much I think I've seen them attached exactly one time in real life.


I wonder how many of the kids joking around with this have ACTUALLY ever put a metal model together. I don't know about you guys but abandon isn't even in my top 10 of hard models to put together. There is noting hard about him, its just 2 hands with more than enough space to pin or magnetize them.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/09/17 17:57:18


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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

If Abaddon's end goal is to get to Terra and that each Crusade before the 13th had accomplished it's goal of doing whatever Abaddon wanted, then there's no point in the buildup of them ramming the Cadian Gates; they clearly had some way of sneaking out and back to the Eye without going through that bullcrap.

Yes, Abaddon can get out of the Eye of Terror other than through the Cadian Gate. However he doesn't seem to be able to bring all of his forces through with him. The Imperium is militarily stronger than Abaddon and doesn't have the level of disunity as Chaos does. Abaddon's plan is to tear open the Cadian Gate and spread the Eye of Terror in a Crimson Path. This requires the Gate to be sundered. It does make sense.

Also Abaddon "inherited" a crippled Legion and remade into the most powerful one. Every time he sally's out in force he has to unite a bunch of ambitious and backstabbing superhumans. It's not as if he has it easy.
Davor wrote:Basically like the someone said, Cobra Commander and his whelps or more like Star Wars Storm Troopers, look cool but can't hit the side of a barn.

If Star Wars Stromtroopers are bad how much worse does that make the rebel soldiers? They get hammered by Stormtroopers.

   
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SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

If Abaddon's end goal is to get to Terra and that each Crusade before the 13th had accomplished it's goal of doing whatever Abaddon wanted, then there's no point in the buildup of them ramming the Cadian Gates; they clearly had some way of sneaking out and back to the Eye without going through that bullcrap.

Yes, Abaddon can get out of the Eye of Terror other than through the Cadian Gate. However he doesn't seem to be able to bring all of his forces through with him. The Imperium is militarily stronger than Abaddon and doesn't have the level of disunity as Chaos does. Abaddon's plan is to tear open the Cadian Gate and spread the Eye of Terror in a Crimson Path. This requires the Gate to be sundered. It does make sense.

Also Abaddon "inherited" a crippled Legion and remade into the most powerful one. Every time he sally's out in force he has to unite a bunch of ambitious and backstabbing superhumans. It's not as if he has it easy.
Davor wrote:Basically like the someone said, Cobra Commander and his whelps or more like Star Wars Storm Troopers, look cool but can't hit the side of a barn.

If Star Wars Stromtroopers are bad how much worse does that make the rebel soldiers? They get hammered by Stormtroopers.



And let's not forget the numerous hits Stormtroopers got while firing from the hip.

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Well, thank you for explaining it. I just take lore too seriously and I'm irritated by most of w40k fans who take positions of: ''chaos wtf? They are are failures, 13'th crusades and got their asses beaten''. I tend to look at w40k as seriously as possible, trying to see all the hints which writers throw at us and want it to as far as possible from anime bs of one individual pwning entire armies and can only be beaten by another even more badass character.

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 Happyjew wrote:

And let's not forget the numerous hits Stormtroopers got while firing from the hip.

Whilst charging through a doorway with no cover at rebel troopers set up in cover no less.
Ernestas wrote:Well, thank you for explaining it. I just take lore too seriously and I'm irritated by most of w40k fans who take positions of: ''chaos wtf? They are are failures, 13'th crusades and got their asses beaten''. I tend to look at w40k as seriously as possible, trying to see all the hints which writers throw at us and want it to as far as possible from anime bs of one individual pwning entire armies and can only be beaten by another even more badass character.

40K started as satire so I'd be wary of taking it too seriously. The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer is not something to be read in a serious manner as an example.
   
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And with that they had done to warhammer fantasy universe, end times are truly near! I'm truly afraid that bad thought out fan fiction level of bs they are going to produce next.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, in Abbadon's defense, he has to unite not disciplined legions with clear hierarchy, but warbands. He also does not have surprise of ''It is heresy bitches'' and wipe out vast portions of loyal space marines within a simple massacre. Nor any of the Primarchs would ever follow a mere space marine. In addition, he is dealing with selfish individuals at best, at worst lunatics who are ready to split each other's head at mere provocation with additionally having a nice little trait of each chaos god follower attacking other specific God on sight. Like leaving berserker and demonette in the same room is not a winning combination...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/17 18:22:58


"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."

Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
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pm713 wrote:
and refusing to serve Chaos is no big deal. Almost all Eldar and Space Marines do that.

Ahahah good one you are such a joker ^^.
It's like half the marines serves Chaos.
Fair for Eldar though.

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 koooaei wrote:
Because the last time i faced him on tabletop he died from a bubblechaka shot made by a grot.


Whut.... I have so many questions about this "bubblechaka"

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Well, you will never ever achieve persuading anyone through hammering your own fanboy message down "OMG ABBADONZ SO BADASS U FOOLZ" and arguing as if it were some real life, mattering issue... To be honest the worst fanboy between you and the one you call such... is you. Abaddon is just here to serv as a punching ball for imperial forces whose purpose is to play the whole galaxy's punching ball in return, no further. As far as the character, his being a great individual has, Under no circumstances, aims nor profits in bereaving other factions and especially the most importants one as orks and imperium, to be represented by their own ones.

You did notice your arrogance, you though missed your ridiculous misunderstanding of the case.

ALTHOUGH, even if none of the matter you evoked is envolved, 40k community does struggle with the problem of being immature people invaded.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/17 19:04:55


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 koooaei wrote:
Because the last time i faced him on tabletop he died from a bubblechaka shot made by a grot.

This is actually a fascinating point about Abigail. Theoretically he has good stuff going on for him:
1. T5 plus EW
2. A S8 AP3 shredding weapon or a S5 AP2 weapon that adds about 3-4 attacks per turn
3. I6 means you go before lots of dudes

However, we then incorporate his price tag of 265. Then we realize that if he's the Warlord he's stuck with a very specific Warlord trait. Then we realize that he can't get anywhere without being slingshot into combat.

Look at Typhus for comparison. He is tougher to anything that doesn't cause ID, and actually enhances your army by giving you Plague Marines instead of Garbage Marines (both Vanilla and Chosen) and makes your Cultists better. He gets a VERY awesome weapon that can cause ID (needs warp charges of course) but is still S6 and lets him hit around 6-7 times compared to Abigail's 8-9 times. Then he is 35 points cheaper, which is enough for two Plasma Guns or three Melta Guns.

So there is the realization he isn't that durable for the price. Smashfucker is around the same price and has more mobility to boot.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 mrhappyface wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So, I do want to know why it is so hard to accept that Abbadon is in fact extremely competent individual. It is only natural and logical to everyone who knows at least basic gak about Chaos. Chaos do not tolerate weakness. Nuff said...


Because the problem is for the longest time, the whole "Crusades have goals!" Was not a major thing for each Black Crusade from the beginning and as a result it's gotten stuck in.

Of course there's other problems that tend to stick even with recent stuff, like people wondering why Ultramarines are pushed so hard in the Space Marine Codex (Because it was originally Codex: Ultramarines), Grey Knights killing Sisters of Battle for a blood ritual (When they used to slaughter entire worlds that knew of them or daemons before without care of the populace)..

It's just not going to change, people are going to constantly get themselves over various subjects, it doesn't help that much of this tends to stem from /tg/ and 1d4chan.



^This.

Originally the black crusades were all failed attempts to attack the imperium, then GW realised that their biggest bad guy had never actually accomplished anything so they changed the black crusades to make it seem as though Abaddon succeeded in finding a relic or testing the imperiums defences.
This is really interesting. Didn't realise Abaddon's Black Crusades predated the 2nd ed codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/17 19:09:18


 
   
 
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