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So over here on this thread, another Dakka Dakka member was saying that Space Marines have no real counter to Riptides. I pointed out a Skyhammer will, in addition to turn-one murdering a Riptide, be around to kill a lot more later on in the game, but they keep insisting it's impossible.

Could people with more experience (I don't play Tau very often) weigh in, either agreeing with me or pointing out that I'm a dumb for thinking Space Marines can beat a Riptide?

Riptides aren't easy to kill. On top of their 2+ armor, T6 and 5Ws they also almost always have 3++ invul and 5+++ FNP so even if you are shooting them with grav they still pretty much shrug off wounds completely. It take 41 grav shots to down what is only a 215 pt model (so even a full unit of grav centurions doesn't kill a riptide by it self)

 CrownAxe wrote:
Riptides aren't easy to kill. On top of their 2+ armor, T6 and 5Ws they also almost always have 3++ invul and 5+++ FNP so even if you are shooting them with grav they still pretty much shrug off wounds completely. It take 41 grav shots to down what is only a 215 pt model (so even a full unit of grav centurions doesn't kill a riptide by it self)

In my (admittedly limited) experience, they tend to only rock a 5++. Too busy using that novacharge for something else. (Plus, if you get first turn, they have no way of managing a 3++ till after you've had a round of shooting.)

And it'll take, with Grav-Amps...

5 Wounds, but with a 5++ save, that's more like 7.5 wounds. 7.5 wounds, wounding 35/36 of the time, is 270/35, or around 7.71 hits. 7.71 hits require, on average (assuming no Doctrines) 11.57 shots. Even if we up the save to a 3++ (making it more like 15 wounds) that's still only about 23 shots-so it will, on average, survive a Grav Dev squad shooting it (not accounting for the Signum, though) but has a pretty dang good chance of dying.

Although that assumed no FNP, which increases the shots needed by about 50%-for a total of around 18 shots with a 5++, or 35 with a 3++.

No idea, at all, how you get 41 shots needed. Mind showing some math?

Edit 1: For a little more mathhammer:

15 shots at BS 4 is 10 hits. 5 shots at BS 5 is 4.16, 6 repeating, hits. For a total of 14.17 hits from a Grav Dev squad. Out of these, 13.77 will wound (14.16*35/36).

Out of those, 4.59 will be saved on a 5++, 9.18 on a 3++. Meaning 9.18 or 4.59 wounds go through.

With FNP, 3.06 wounds get saved from 9,18 and 1.53 get saved from 4.59.

So, with FNP (which not all Riptides have) and a 5++, the Riptide takes 6.12 wounds on average. More than enough to kill it.

With a 3++, though, it lives on average, with one wound remaining. With FNP, 2 wounds left.

Edit 2: I put it into Anydice, for more math. using this code:



This is for 5++ and FNP Riptide.

It dies 78.08% of the time. Now for the 3++ Riptide.

Using this code:



We find a 3++ Riptide dies 18.05% of the time.

Edit 3: Though it only has one wound left an additional 18.65% of the time.

And if we take out FNP...



It dies a whopping 49.96% of the time!

Check on the 5++, no FNP...



It dies 98.49% of the time.

There is always FNP because that's just an upgrade a riptide can take

The 3++ is from Ion Charging which in the riptide wing formation happens 8/9 times (since it s a rerollabe 3+ check to pass to have 3++)

41 shots isn't using the grav amp

 CrownAxe wrote:
There is always FNP because that's just an upgrade a riptide can take

The 3++ is from Ion Charging which in the riptide wing formation happens 8/9 times (since it s a rerollabe 3+ check to pass to have 3++)

41 shots isn't using the grav amp

That assumes they get turn one and DON'T want to do anything other than an increased invulnerable save. What if they want to Nova Charge their weapons?

And why would you bring up Centurions and assume no Grav Amps? They ALWAYS have Grav Amps!

 JNAProductions wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
There is always FNP because that's just an upgrade a riptide can take

The 3++ is from Ion Charging which in the riptide wing formation happens 8/9 times (since it s a rerollabe 3+ check to pass to have 3++)

41 shots isn't using the grav amp

That assumes they get turn one and DON'T want to do anything other than an increased invulnerable save. What if they want to Nova Charge their weapons?

And why would you bring up Centurions and assume no Grav Amps? They ALWAYS have Grav Amps!

Nova charging thei weapon isn't worth it. Giving their blast +1 Str and Gets hot isn't worth not having 3++.

Also my comment of 41 grav shots and centurions not one shotting a riptide were separate comments

And you are assuming in a vacumm that if SMs get first turn they can just kill the Riptide. You are not accounting for their being terrain the riptide can hide behind or that if there really is a strong chance of the riptide getting alpha striked that if could just stay in reserves and then it will always get to Ion Charge for 3++ before it can get shot at. Besides 1/2 the time tau go first and gets to turn on its 3++

Depends on how heavy the Tau are on EWO. Riptides, crisis, commanders, broadsides, ghostkeels, Stealth suits and stormsurges can ALL take EWO, so yes. There's a very real possibility that marines can be shot off the board before they get past the end of the movement phase.

Riptides, stormsurges and even ghostkeels have blast weapons that deny armour even on termies are strong enough to deny any FNP and the existence of the drone net with boosted bs and interceptor (amongst a host of other special rules) means that there's likely no cover save available either.

The shear volume of plasma and Missile fire from intercepting crisis and broadsides (especially now that the FAQ's state that they can fire both weapons) can definitely deal with anything that has deep struck too close for blast templates, or just contribute to the pain for those that survive.

Having said that, that's a deep investment in interceptor, so it's only going to be a thing amongst the people who are in an all marines all the time meta, a tailored list or just someone who is paranoid enough about reserves to do it.

It can only take a single marine to rout a Riptide or squad of suits (especially if he has an evicerator!), and grav cannons can definitely do a number on a Riptide who hasn't got his shield up (either failed the roll, went for something else or hasn't had a chance to act yet). If the Tau player hasn't gone heavy on EWO, the marine player can probably put enough units down to ensure some of them get to survive, though it's going to be the Tau players choice on what survives for the most part.

I've played games on both sides of this, and to a large extent, it's very dependant on how the Tau player rolls. Having the Riptides scatter or fail to overcharge, having marker drones roll far too many misses, having the marine player use Terrain to block fire from critical units, the Tau player making or being forced to make poor deployment decisions due to Terrain, any and all of those can be critical to having enough marines survive the drop.

Or you could just take land raiders and hope he doesn't have a stormsurge. I've seen it happen a couple of times when the Tau player thinks that massive amounts of str7 was enough to solve all his problems (and it usually is, but not against raiders).

So, yeah, it depends, but if the Tau player knows what's coming, it's going to be difficult for the marine player to do much about it.

Thanks Drasius. Any idea if there any Tau vs. Marines battle reports here on Dakka Dakka that provide some illustrated examples of how this goes?

Edit: Found one! Here.

As for CrownAxe, what about double tapping with secondary weapons? Or assault moving 4d6"? (The second is really valuable in Maelstrom.)

It also wasn't very clear that your Centurion and 41 shots comments were separate. Plus, more often than not, Grav Weapons have the Amps.

And want me to run the math on a 4+ cover save? (3+ cover, such as with Night Fighting and Ruins, is the same as a 3++.) It'd be pretty simple to do, though an off-hand guess pegs it at dying around 50% of the time with a 4+ cover and FNP. Though with Perfect Timing, Hunter's Eye, Phase Form... Yeah, pretty decent chances that cover is not a thing that matters.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So over here on this thread, another Dakka Dakka member was saying that Space Marines have no real counter to Riptides. I pointed out a Skyhammer will, in addition to turn-one murdering a Riptide, be around to kill a lot more later on in the game, but they keep insisting it's impossible.

Could people with more experience (I don't play Tau very often) weigh in, either agreeing with me or pointing out that I'm a dumb for thinking Space Marines can beat a Riptide?

A good Tau player, aware of today's general meta, comes packing so much Interceptor fire, that your Sky-Hammer will be a stain before they fire a round.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So over here on this thread, another Dakka Dakka member was saying that Space Marines have no real counter to Riptides. I pointed out a Skyhammer will, in addition to turn-one murdering a Riptide, be around to kill a lot more later on in the game, but they keep insisting it's impossible.

Could people with more experience (I don't play Tau very often) weigh in, either agreeing with me or pointing out that I'm a dumb for thinking Space Marines can beat a Riptide?

A good Tau player, aware of today's general meta, comes packing so much Interceptor fire, that your Sky-Hammer will be a stain before they fire a round.

A single Riptide or two is not hard to deal with. It is the Riptide wing with the supporting Marker lights combining into problem. The best solution Imho should be either Draigo-Tigirius (with Librarian Conclave)-Grav Centurion Star. Since GoI do not counts coming in from reserve, while Invisibility neturalize the getting large Blast problem (even Tau gets lucky ML on the unit, they still cannot fire Blast due to snapshot right?) If you also get either Veil of Time or Endurance up (quite likely for Tiggy Conclave), the better. Tau have almost no answer to intense psychic just like Droppod Marines have no answer to EWO.

The other solution is the WolfStar. Alarge fast assault units is always a problem of Tau. But, you also need Invisibility, Endurance or Veil of Time to survive the Tau shooting before you gets into combat.

Finally, something had been sad over and over again. Always take something to kill the Marker Light sources (TFC, Psychic sherik, etc.). Remember every 18 ML shots means even under Invisibility, the Riptide wing is gonna hitting you on 3+.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Thanks Drasius. Any idea if there any Tau vs. Marines battle reports here on Dakka Dakka that provide some illustrated examples of how this goes?

Edit: Found one! Here.

That's a poor batrep to illustrate the point since the Tau player had no idea what he was doing (as stated later in the thread, I'm not having a go at him) and a Tau list without markerlights is generally a bad one. Not to mention that the marine list didn't have a huge amount of deep striking units, nor did the Tau Force even have any EWO from what I remember from my quick skim.

As others have pointed out, the more competitive way to run Riptides will obliterate a Skyhammer before it can shoot. Even if the Marine player goes first, all Riptides have EWO. So Grav-Devs drop, Riptide intercepts with Str 8 AP2 blast. Best case scenario is 1 Dev lives, which will not be enough shots to kill the Riptide. If there are 2+ Riptides, nothing that drops in (that is a threat to the Riptides) will survive the drop
Drop-Grav just doesn't work against Riptides, so running the math on how effective it kills them is pointless.

Good Tau players use the Nova Charge to get the 3++ 90% of the time, with a case-by-case need to use any of the other options.

Now, if you run 3+ Skyhammer formations, then you might have enough survivors to kill a Tide or 2, but is that investment worth it? You would be spending twice the cost to do this. On the upside, that many Assault Marines getting to charge after the Deep Strike is just brutal to a Tau army.

Riptides will kill ASM in CC easily.

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides will kill ASM in CC easily.

Riptides, yes, but ASM should be charging units like Crisis Suits, Broadsides, etc. Basically anything in between Fire Warriors and MC suits to tie up their shooting, but not completely blow through the unit in 1 turn. This would only work if you had 3+ Skyhammers to do it, which most players would only run 1

The fact that we are discussing running three instances of one of the most broken formations in the game to handle Tau says a lot. It especially says a lot about the chances of lists like Orks, BA, DA, etc.

The bottom line is... Skyhammer IS excellent, and can be very strong, but it is absolutely terrible of a match-up versus many Tau players.

Even without say, Markerlights with EWO from their formation, etc... I'd LOVE for a SM player to drop anything anywhere near my Y'vahra, etc. With the dirt cheap access to Interceptors, someone would have to waste a disproportionate amount of points to get rid of ONE of my threat vectors... and even then would get a black-eye for doing it.

Even as a Tau player, I think there's too bloody much Interceptor for far too cheap.

Maybe a squadron of Predator Annihilators? That's 9 lascannons with monster-hunter. Those Riptides are going to fail a few rolls, and the Predator AV13 to the front should let them weather any return fire.

Nomeny wrote:
Maybe a squadron of Predator Annihilators? That's 9 lascannons with monster-hunter. Those Riptides are going to fail a few rolls, and the Predator AV13 to the front should let them weather any return fire.

That will kill the Riptide in about 4-5 turns. Useless.

Nomeny wrote:
Maybe a squadron of Predator Annihilators? That's 9 lascannons with monster-hunter. Those Riptides are going to fail a few rolls, and the Predator AV13 to the front should let them weather any return fire.

The major problem of doing so is that if you need to manuver, the each tank would have only one lascannon firing at BS4, other 6 are forced to snap fire. So unless you are playing on a no LOS blocking terrain, the Riptide can jump from cover to cover, forcing you to move in order to see it, and reduced your fire power.

Force axe i between it's sensors. Shooting and grav is for pussies.

How do you propose to get a force axe alive to a Riptide?

Martel732 wrote:
How do you propose to get a force axe alive to a Riptide?

Go invisibilty, veil of time and shifting worldscape, Librarian conclave with someone in Terminator armor and taking stormshield

So basically you need the fw libby to guarantee invis so you can fish for the rest.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but Nova reactor is at the start of EACH movement phase. So a smart Tau can use shooty nova during their turn, and activate immunity nova during the opponents turn. I play Tau pretty regularly and my general strategy is tarpit or ignore the riptide and take out marker lights.

Morris782 wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong here, but Nova reactor is at the start of EACH movement phase. So a smart Tau can use shooty nova during their turn, and activate immunity nova during the opponents turn. I play Tau pretty regularly and my general strategy is tarpit or ignore the riptide and take out marker lights.

ITs each of the tau player's movement phase

Morris782 wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong here, but Nova reactor is at the start of EACH movement phase. So a smart Tau can use shooty nova during their turn, and activate immunity nova during the opponents turn. I play Tau pretty regularly and my general strategy is tarpit or ignore the riptide and take out marker lights.

When rules describe something that is voluntarily done in a certain phase, it refers to YOUR phase. Generally you cannot do voluntary actions in your opponents phase.
So nice try, but no Nova charging in your opponents turn.

-

Correct. Also, the Nova reactor roll can only be re-rolled if using the Riptide Wing formation or the Earth Caste Pilot Array relic (which, being a relic, is something you can only have one of.)

Obviously, the tournament monster bash lists will use the Riptide Wing, but that's not actually one of the base features. Other misunderstandings that you shouldn't let people get away with: the Nova-charged profile for the ion accelerator does not have Barrage. It's Ordnance, and for some reason people seem to think that Barrage and Ordnance are the same thing. Nope. It needs line of sight, and does not inherently ignore cover. The Riptide is an MC, not a GC, and it is not Fearless. (It does have Fear, which is the source of confusion.)

just ally in the new BA formation that lets you charge from deepstrike, and eat them alive/make them fail a morale test.

I feel like the "tons of interceptor upgrades" mentioned above is a counter to your strategy, pumaman1. :(