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Is the Riptide meant to be an artillery piece or a super-Crisis Suit?
Artillery 22% [ 61 ]
Linebreaker 67% [ 184 ]
Other (please comment) 11% [ 29 ]
Total Votes : 274
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Made in us
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Eastern VA

Over in Proposed Rules-land, the topic of the Riptide comes up over and over, and one of the fundamental disagreements on how to fix it hinges on one key question: what is it meant to be doing on the battlefield. There seem to be two camps: the Artillery Camp and the Linebreaker Camp, as I'll call them. The Artillery Camp envisions the Riptide as a slow, lumbering, ponderous machine that sits in the back lines acting like semi-mobile artillery, as basically the Tau version of a Basilisk, and they wonder why in the nine hells it needs to be so blasted durable and mobile when most other artillery pieces are at best T7/W2/3+ or AV12/10/10 3HP. The Linebreaker Camp envisions it as a mobile fire sink, basically a bigger, tougher version of a Crisis Suit that's meant to soak up an awful lot of incoming fire so the Fire Warriors and Crisis Teams can get where they need to go and kill what they need to kill, and they wonder why in the universe something like that has a 72"-range pie plate puker and trivially easy access to Interceptor.

These two camps seem like divergent design elements to me: you can't make a single model good at both without being OP in at least one of them. So, my question to you, Dakka-ites at large, both Tau players and those who play against Tau, is this: which do you think it should be?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/30 16:33:09


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Dallas area, TX

It is specified in the fluff, I think, that the Riptide is a large class of Crisis suit, thus it should function as such IMO.
The biggest issue is its Durability and those units that are capable of dealing with it's durability do not get to fire upon the Riptide due to EWO.
It is odd to me that the Riptide has a 2+ armour, as if it is trying to be a steroided combination of a Crisis suit & a Broadside. Jet-pack suit should have only a 3+ save. This would help fix the Riptide and make it function more like a giant Crisis suit.

-

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Fluff-wise, and what I think it was designed as, is to really be a Gundam Wing type suit. And in those animes, such units are super-powerful, able to kill lots of stuff, while also being nigh invincible.

In a story, that's cool. In a game, it's not. (well, it is, if you pay a blastedly huge amount of points for it)

Personally, I feel like the Riptide should be "hey, this thing is experimental", and that vibe should define it. You should be able to make it three ways:

#1 - The Artillery unit; it keeps strong shooting ability, and can even move around pretty quickly, but isn't able to really take a punch.

#2 - The Linebreaker unit; it doesn't have very strong shooting, but it's tough, meant to break through lines and sow discord among enemies.

#3 - The Super-Unit; It does it all baby! However, it's price is way higher than it is right now.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
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Eastern VA

I absolutely agree that the EWO is too much, for too cheap. The reason I posted this, and posted it here, is because last time I proposed any fixes, the thread got derailed on a bunch of suggestions that were predicated on the idea that it would be fine sitting back chucking S8 AP2 large blasts, even with Interceptor, as long as it dies when you breathe on it and can't rabbit around. Basically, arguing in favor of a version that's even killier than the current one, but much more glass - but I agree that the fluff doesn't portray it like that.

So, I'm trying to figure out not what the fluff says - which is pretty clear - or what the current crunch provides (which is all kinds of confuzzled), but rather, how the player base sees it.

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Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror

Line Breaker!

The Tau already have an artillery suit, its called the storm surge. Even in its original fluff the Riptide was instrumental in breaking the fortifications at Agrellan when they discovered it could take manticore missiles and keep going. I think its fundamental identity problem is the fact that the ion accelerator has such long range. I suggest it has a range or 48 inches or less to reflect this and more define the role of the suit itself.

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I voted breakthrough unit, but I still feel the easiest fix is to keep the same cost but drop a wound and not allow access to FNP, that would cut its survivability considerably without making it overly squishy. Maybe restrict it frok taking EWO too. Afted that, its good but not outrageous and would require a bit more thought to use properly.

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It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.

Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.
   
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 Gamgee wrote:
It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.

Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.


The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.
   
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Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror

Martel732 wrote:
 Gamgee wrote:
It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.

Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.


The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.


I think if they toned down the weapons a tad and reduced their range but kept the durability it certainly would fit the theme of a Linebreaker suit. You're right, predators cant do much but its just as vulnerable to things like sniper weapons, grav crushes it, and even a torrent of lasguns can give it a bad day (and is insanely fun to watch it happen). Not to mention that fact that its just as likely to wound itself from nova.

17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"

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Dallas area, TX

Martel732 wrote:
 Gamgee wrote:
It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.

Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.


The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.

I agree with this. Even in a Riptide Wing, the damage output is good, but far from OP. A StimTide is by far the hardest unit in Codex* 40K to kill. *I am excluding Forge world stuff here.
What makes it worse is that most units that can drop in a try to take it out, won't be able to because they die in their own movement phase thanks to EWO.

Player base & fluffwise, I don't think the Riptide is suppose to be an Artillery type unit. That is what the Stormsurge & Broadsides are for. Riptide is supposed to be a Linebreaker.
Having only 3+ save and more expensive EWO would still allow it to perform that task without being the Bane of all Marine lists

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 Gamgee wrote:
It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.

Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.


The issue isn't that he Riptide is too killy, or that it's too durable, it's that it is both for such a ridiculously low cost. Anything that can fill as many rolls as a Riptide can while taking as many hits as it can should have a commiserate points cost.

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I feel like you should only get an invuln save if you pay for it or nova charge.
   
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It should be a linebreaker by nature.

Awhile ago, I wrote a rule proposal to rework the Nova Reactor mechanic for the Riptide. Rather than it being "Roll a Die for a Bonus", the Nova Reactor would work as follows:

Nova Reactor: At the start of the player's Movement Phase, the Riptide may choose to have the Nova Reactor power a subsystem of choice. Until the start of the player's next turn, the Riptide follows the "Nova-Charge" rules for that subsystem. At the start of the player's next turn, the Riptide will instead follow the "Burnout" rules until the start of the player's subsequent turn. A Riptide may not use the Nova Reactor to power a subsystem that is undergoing Burnout.
Primary Weapon:
-Nova-Charge: The Primary Weapon uses its Nova-Charge profile for shooting.
-Burnout: The Primary Weapon may not shoot.
Shields:
-Nova-Charge: The Riptide has a 2+ Invulnerable Save.
-Burnout: The Riptide does not have an Invulnerable Save.
Thrusters:
-Nova-Charge: The Riptide doubles all movement for this turn.
-Burnout: The Riptide may not move at all this turn. If forced to Fall Back or to move from a Tank Shock, it is automatically destroyed.
Secondary Weapon:
-Nova-Charge: The Secondary Weapon may fire 3 times this turn.
-Burnout: The Secondary Weapon may not fire this turn.

For the "Riptide Wing", the Networked Reactor Array rule would be re-written as:

Networked Reactor Array: At the start of the player's turn, when a Riptide is about to suffer the "Burnout" effects of a particular subsystem, another Riptide from this formation within 6" may elect to suffer the Burnout effects instead, provided it would otherwise not suffer the Burnout Effects for the turn. For example, if Riptide A Nova-Charges the Shield Subsystem on turn 1, while Riptide B Nova-Charges its Thrusters turn 1, and both end within 6" of each other, Riptide A could have Riptide B's Shields to suffer the Burnout Effects for the turn, while Riptide B could have Riptide A's Thrusters suffer Burnout effects for the turn, thus allowing Riptide A to Nova-Charge its Shields for a second turn in a row, and Riptide B to Nova-Charge its Thrusters for a second turn in a row.

Finally, make EWO more expensive for the Riptide (Stimulant Injectors are already pricier) for it would definitely be a good start, and the Ion Accelerator's AP should be AP 3 instead of AP 2, requiring the Nova Charge for AP 2 to kick in.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/30 18:55:49


 
   
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 generalchaos34 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Gamgee wrote:
It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.

Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.


The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.


I think if they toned down the weapons a tad and reduced their range but kept the durability it certainly would fit the theme of a Linebreaker suit. You're right, predators cant do much but its just as vulnerable to things like sniper weapons, grav crushes it, and even a torrent of lasguns can give it a bad day (and is insanely fun to watch it happen). Not to mention that fact that its just as likely to wound itself from nova.


2+/5+++ is functionally immune to lasguns and snipers.
   
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An FNP'd Riptide is gonna take an average of 108 Lasgun shots to sustain a single wound, 540 to kill it. You can lasgun flurry the thing all day and it probably wont care. While it's *possible* to hurt a Riptide with small arms like Bolters and Lasguns, it is functionally immune to them.

Even Sniper weapons arent particularly functional against a Riptide.


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It's definitely a linebreaker unit - fast, durable and threatening. In my games I always use it as my vanguard - always in front, always making holes for my other suits to move up and continue the fight.

I would agree that it needs a cost adjustment, but until the Wraithknight is adjusted accordingly, and other armies stop getting several hundred points of free gear/transports as detachment boni, I'm not going to loose any sleep over the base price of the model.

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Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






This is actually a more complex question than it first appears.

The Riptide is, at the end of the day, a giant crisis suit. It does what a crisis gak does but is bigger, tougher, and meaner across the board.

Now... the crux of this conflict has to do with what you consider the Crisis Suit to be. If you think of the crisis suit as what it is in game, then the Riptide is easily a linebreaker, but if you're thinking about what the crisis suit is in the fluff (that is, the mech that can be modified into different roles, including mounting small rail guns to become broadside battlesuits) then the answer is more complicated, and the Riptide is the basis of a unit that could be kitted out in either role.

Of course, now that the stormsurge and ghostkeel exist the Riptide works less as the baseline model and is more easily shoehorned into the linebreaker, crisis suit-esque roll.

   
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 Captain Joystick wrote:
This is actually a more complex question than it first appears.

The Riptide is, at the end of the day, a giant crisis suit. It does what a crisis gak does but is bigger, tougher, and meaner across the board.

Now... the crux of this conflict has to do with what you consider the Crisis Suit to be. If you think of the crisis suit as what it is in game, then the Riptide is easily a linebreaker, but if you're thinking about what the crisis suit is in the fluff (that is, the mech that can be modified into different roles, including mounting small rail guns to become broadside battlesuits) then the answer is more complicated, and the Riptide is the basis of a unit that could be kitted out in either role.

Of course, now that the stormsurge and ghostkeel exist the Riptide works less as the baseline model and is more easily shoehorned into the linebreaker, crisis suit-esque roll.


That's where my thoughts were going, too. I think the idea was half-baked in the 6e Tau codex; by adding the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge, the Riptide no longer needs to do it all. So I think the roles should more clearly fork:

1) Stormsurge, as a mostly-static artillery suit, a giant Broadside. Probably something that takes a few solid hits to bring down, but doesn't just blithely ignore everything you toss at it. Has a long-range gun and a lot of medium-range ones.
2) Riptide, as a mobile linebreaker suit that's meant to laugh off lighter weapons but is somewhat vulnerable to anti-tank weapons.
3) Ghostkeel, as a stealthy hunter of artillery, tanks and heavy weapons units that's highly resistant to big guns but can be brought down by volleys of anti-infantry fire at close range.

I think if you try to make any of them able to fulfil more than one of those roles effectively, you end up with something that's like what the Riptide is at its worst now: out of range of anything that can hurt it, all but immune to anything that can reach it and able to kill anything that can both reach and hurt it before they can move, and can threaten the entire table.

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Martel732 wrote:
 Gamgee wrote:
It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.

Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.


The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.


Tri-Las preds can come in a formation with monster hunter/tank hunter, so with 3 sets of e single las cannons and 3 sets of TL 1 las cannon that's 4 lascannon hits from the singles, and 2.6 from the TL ones. Wounding on a 2+ rerollable. so lets call it 6 to be nice. If the nova failed (which it has a 1/3rd chance of doing mind you) there is 1 wound, 4 las cannon wounds, thats literally 1 turn dead. if it brings FNP then it can limp to 2 turns.

The argument of in 6th ed, riptide was needed to just be competitive. FSE made crisis suits troops, and then Tau became top tier. Now that we have more tools, but riptide is still in full 6E intro mode (lost the ECPA due to no signature systems so back to pre FSE) it should have been altered in the new codex/mont'ka/Kayon books.

Vote line-breaker, because "it's to tough to kill" tears are delicious. tears for the tear-throne

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/30 20:20:41


 
   
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 pumaman1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Gamgee wrote:
It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.

Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.


The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.


Tri-Las preds can come in a formation with monster hunter/tank hunter, so with 3 sets of e single las cannons and 3 sets of TL 1 las cannon that's 4 lascannon hits from the singles, and 2.6 from the TL ones. Wounding on a 2+ rerollable. so lets call it 6 to be nice. If the nova failed (which it has a 1/3rd chance of doing mind you) there is 1 wound, 4 las cannon wounds, thats literally 1 turn dead. if it brings FNP then it can limp to 2 turns.

The argument of in 6th ed, riptide was needed to just be competitive. FSE made crisis suits troops, and then Tau became top tier. Now that we have more tools, but riptide is still in full 6E intro mode (lost the ECPA due to no signature systems so back to pre FSE) it should have been altered in the new codex/mont'ka/Kayon books.

Vote line-breaker, because "it's to tough to kill" tears are delicious. tears for the tear-throne

Riptide Wing lets its riptides reroll the nova charge test so it gets 3++ 8/9 times now.. And there is no "if" on it having FNP, it's the best upgrade it can take so it's going to have FNP

Also Predetators aren't hard to kill, especially for Tau. You kill 1 Pred from the squadron and it loses monster hunter

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/30 20:46:12


 
   
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since we get to compare in a vacuum to a vacuum, your riptides never roll unlucky, my riptides are never brought in a riptide wing. They choose selective sky-fire over EWO because of a flyer heavy meta, your army is only terminators with no invuls making the s8ap2 large blast especially egregious..

Riptides/tau don't win tournaments because riptides have to chance unsavable wounds and no-result to make them as deadly as you say, or stay within 6" of another making them a cluster, and only very similar parts of the board.

They definitely aren't bad, they are quite good even. But as often as they are brought and as OP as dakka threads claim, no one but tau would win tournaments.
   
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Dallas area, TX

StormSurge = Big Broadside
Ghostkeel = Big Stealth suit
Therefore Riptide = Big Crisis Suit

But so some reason, Riptides have 2+ & Stormsurge has 3+. GW got this backwards.

   
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On moon miranda.

 pumaman1 wrote:


They definitely aren't bad, they are quite good even. But as often as they are brought and as OP as dakka threads claim, no one but tau would win tournaments.
Hrm, just because Tau dont autoroflstomp everything and other stuff is also an issue doesnt mean the Riptide is not. The Riptide mainly is the big obvious outlier that is present is literally every single Tau list almost without exception (I havent seen a single Tau army without a Riptide since they came out), which is an issue.

It doesnt mean that other stuff isnt also broken however.

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 pumaman1 wrote:
since we get to compare in a vacuum to a vacuum, your riptides never roll unlucky, my riptides are never brought in a riptide wing. They choose selective sky-fire over EWO because of a flyer heavy meta, your army is only terminators with no invuls making the s8ap2 large blast especially egregious..

Riptides/tau don't win tournaments because riptides have to chance unsavable wounds and no-result to make them as deadly as you say, or stay within 6" of another making them a cluster, and only very similar parts of the board.

They definitely aren't bad, they are quite good even. But as often as they are brought and as OP as dakka threads claim, no one but tau would win tournaments.


Your mistake. Flyers are mostly garbage and can be ignored.

Again, the firepower can somewhat be handled, but the fact that these thing never die is the frustrating part.

If have to count on bad luck for a unit to die, that unit is too powerful by far.

Tau don't win touranments because invisible deathstars exist. Fighting Tau with a "reasonable" list is virtually impossible.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 pumaman1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Gamgee wrote:
It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.

Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.


The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.


Tri-Las preds can come in a formation with monster hunter/tank hunter, so with 3 sets of e single las cannons and 3 sets of TL 1 las cannon that's 4 lascannon hits from the singles, and 2.6 from the TL ones. Wounding on a 2+ rerollable. so lets call it 6 to be nice. If the nova failed (which it has a 1/3rd chance of doing mind you) there is 1 wound, 4 las cannon wounds, thats literally 1 turn dead. if it brings FNP then it can limp to 2 turns.

The argument of in 6th ed, riptide was needed to just be competitive. FSE made crisis suits troops, and then Tau became top tier. Now that we have more tools, but riptide is still in full 6E intro mode (lost the ECPA due to no signature systems so back to pre FSE) it should have been altered in the new codex/mont'ka/Kayon books.

Vote line-breaker, because "it's to tough to kill" tears are delicious. tears for the tear-throne


You can't assume the NOVA reactor has failed. The base line comparison is no NOVA at all. Shoot lascannons through a 5++/5+++ is an exercise in futility for something with 5 wounds.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/09/30 21:16:17


 
   
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 Gamgee wrote:
It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.

Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.


Ok not be incendiary or trollish (honestly) but I thought I had read a post from you a year ago stating you hated tau? What changed? I remember because I like your name .
   
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Gamgee has been a huge fan of Tau for as long as I can remember.

I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
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Outer Space, Apparently

Lore wise it was deployed during the Third Sphere of Expansion to outmanoeuvre Imperial Armour while also being practically bulletproof against small arms, something that Crisis Suits can't handle. It plays well into the Mont'ka combat doctrine, being able to swiftly deploy to launch a counterattack to destroy key targets; lore wise it's very much a linebreaker/tank hunter/inevitable bullet sponge.

I think that carries over fairly well into the game, however A. It's more efficient and far easier to keep in your army's backline rather than trying to outflank your enemy with one, and B. The game ignores the fact that it's an experimental design that, at best, has only seen field tests for around a year. It hasn't been massed produced, and often hasn't even been seen by a some Imperial forces fighting on the Eastern Fringe. Make these damn things limited to 1 per army for Christs sake. That, or a limit like "1 per 1000 points".

G.A

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/01 23:22:41


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Either, it's intended to be flexible. The entire Tau army is intended to be flexible within the confines of ranged roles.

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I voted Linebreaker, because they are functionally battle suit versions of cruiser tanks (break through the line, cause disruption in the back line). My view is a little biased, though, because my weakest special weapon kills them outright on a single failed armor save (GK Psilencer).

SJ

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In all honesty I'd do 2-3 of the following:
- Reduce the ++ save granted by Nova Charging to make it less of a no-brainer (either making it a 4++, or just removing it as an option).
- Reduce the innate armour save to a 3+.
- Remove the option for Stimms (because honestly it makes no sense that stimm injectors should have much of an effect on a model that's 99% mechanical).
- Reduce the range of the IA to 24" or even 36".
- Increase the cost of EWO.

Then change the base cost as necessary (if it is).
   
 
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