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Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut






Bikes are extremely good at shooting in the game.
We all know the rules reason why, but why did GW make them that good at shooting.
Bikes seem to be the 40k equivalent of fantasy cav and are fun. I get that they get some sort of guns this makes them sifi and all instead of just wfb.
I just wonder why they are made into the best weapon platforms of the game, is there any historical, computer game, sifi movie / book or fluff reason for it ?
Making the fastest unit in the game also the sturdiest and the sootiest seems a bit of an odd choice.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/26 15:43:59


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They aren't better at shooting then infantry, they just aren't encumbered by Heavy Weapons because they are mounted on a large metal chasis. As a result bikes tend to just be using a better guns then foot soldiers (heck bikes even strap on two bolters instead of just 1 resulting in them being twin-linked)

The actual problem that you have missed is that most bike unit are undercosted on points. No one would think Scatterbikes are good if they were 100 pts per model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/26 15:48:04


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




The other issue is that other platforms are consistently mediocre or bad.

Forget about the durability difference between a Tactical Marine and a Biker Marine. The Tactical Marine squad can't double up on special weapons OR Heavy weapons. This makes them impossible to specialize at larger squad numbers, and at the same time costing more to take that damn heavy weapon. Meanwhile, Bikers are typically taken at 5 dudes but at least take two of the same special weapon. Their purpose can be defined. The Tactical Marine cannot.

See where I'm going with this?

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The other issue is that other platforms are consistently mediocre or bad.

Forget about the durability difference between a Tactical Marine and a Biker Marine. The Tactical Marine squad can't double up on special weapons OR Heavy weapons. This makes them impossible to specialize at larger squad numbers, and at the same time costing more to take that damn heavy weapon. Meanwhile, Bikers are typically taken at 5 dudes but at least take two of the same special weapon. Their purpose can be defined. The Tactical Marine cannot.

See where I'm going with this?


Grav Cannon trumps this argument. It can be used as a Special Weapon as it can be fired on the move, it's also good against many target types, so no need to specialize. Grav Cannon uber alles.

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 CrownAxe wrote:
They aren't better at shooting then infantry, they just aren't encumbered by Heavy Weapons because they are mounted on a large metal chasis. As a result bikes tend to just be using a better guns then foot soldiers (heck bikes even strap on two bolters instead of just 1 resulting in them being twin-linked)

The actual problem that you have missed is that most bike unit are undercosted on points. No one would think Scatterbikes are good if they were 100 pts per model.


What I observed from 3rd edition, is that bikes started to

1) progressively cost less, way less (this happened to Jump units too, to an extent)

2) progressively creep into troops (this happened to Jump units too, to an extent, see 5th ed BA)

In 3rd you took bikes with a specific role in mind but the slot and the cost made them not a win-all.
As if there was some design intent and vision back then, go figure.

They needed some buff, but as always GW went overboard.

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Nobody knows really, other than GW wanted to sell more bikes and Jetbikes.

In reality, bikes would be awkward, fragile, and clumsy combat units, and would be atrocious as firing platforms, there's very little about them that bears any resemblance to anything that could possibly be considered a "stable firing platform". The idea that a bike should be Relentless is more than a wee bit silly.

40k for some reason sees the need to make them tougher and more capable at everything just because, while being dramatically cheaper than in previous editions. Between enhanced T, Relentless, twin linked basic guns, heavy weapons access, HoW hits, and Jink, theyve gone completely overboard, and on top of that theyve made them progressively cheaper.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/26 17:01:08


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This seems to cover a lot of the same ground as the thread I started over in proposed rules. Seems to me that bikes give a lot of advantages over infantry, yet without any representation of the drawbacks bikes would suffer compared to infantry.
   
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Bikes are the equivalent of light cavalry in Fantasy. The way the morale rules are written there isn't any room in 40k (and barely any room in 8e Fantasy, for that matter) for shock/melee cavalry, so the designers are trying to make them a fast harassment/disruption/artillery-hunting unit, which means guns. And since the escalation in game scale keeps punishing small arms they've got to come with massed/accurate small arms and special weapons to stay relevant.

They aren't strictly speaking the best weapon platform around; they're fast and durable, yes, but they're expensive, come in small units, short ranged, and have a more limited selection of guns. Infantry can impact more of the field at a time (just looking at absolute threat range discounts infantry's ability to sit on an objective and still shoot things 36-48" away), vehicles can take more punishment (imperviousness to small arms is worth a lot).

The current situation wherein bikes are outright better than competing units is due to some mixture of miscosting and poorly-thought-out guns to ablative wounds ratios in most infantry units, not an inherent issue with the Bike type or game role.

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 Nazrak wrote:
This seems to cover a lot of the same ground as the thread I started over in proposed rules. Seems to me that bikes give a lot of advantages over infantry, yet without any representation of the drawbacks bikes would suffer compared to infantry.


It's the same situation as MCs vs vehicles. GW needs to quit making unit A strictly better than unit B.
   
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Dallas area, TX

Honestly, the easiest fix would be to remove Relentless from Bikes and Jetbikes. Yes the platform is more stable, but you still have to position the whole darn bike to point where you need to shoot it. From what I can tell, most bike mounted weapons are fixed to the machine.

Having to sacrifice the movement for a turn is the trade off for carrying more weapons.
A potential problem is that this would throw certain bikes out of balance while trying to fix others. Scatterbikes would not be as good, but now you would see more Shuricannon bikes (cause those are Assault). Space Marine Attack bikes would be rubbish, while DA bike would pretty much be the same (since they always Jink anyway).

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/26 16:32:13


   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don't know what people are talking about, because the OP is correct. Bikes are Relentless, and that makes them so good at shooting.

It really doesn't make sense, because a guy zooming around on a bike is going to be less accurate, not more. Non-skimmer vehicles in the game can't even move 12 inches and still fire at full, so it's not exactly reasonable for bikes to do this.

What IS important for the designers is the idea of the bikes shooting into things and then charging them. But the way they do this, by giving them Relentless, is very strange indeed.

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Maybe attack bikes could keep full relentless and bikers could get a cheapo relentless that only lets them assault after firing rapid fire/salvo weapons. But firing those weapons follow the infantry rules.

Another key to this is the upgrade from T4 -> T5 is amazeballs and way better than the upgrade from T3 -> T4. This kind of nonlinearity is a serious problem in 40K and I'm sure GW doesn't think about it at all.

We'd still have to address how incredibly bad non-fast non-super heavy vehicles are at firing their weapons. A lot of vehicles need the old pseudo-fast the Tau had in 4th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/26 16:34:47


 
   
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Washington State

For me, the idea of a 10' tall, genetically altered super soldier riding a motorcycle into combat is ludicrous at best. There is a suspension of belief in reality when you play a table top game like 40K, but the bikes just don't do it for me. The rules for bikes just have nothing in common with the reality of riding a motorcycle. Street bikes go stupid fast, but if they even look at debris on the road, they are going to wreck. Dirt bikes can pretty much roll over everything, but they are slow. Mounting a weapon on a bike would just be... how would you aim it? Pop a wheelie and point? If the weapon is big enough, it's going to have mass and screw up the balance on the bike (which is pretty critical as a bike only has two wheels and is inherently unstable), not to mention the recoil. I don't care if it's a Space Marine or not- Sir Issac Newton had a few laws about mass, force, and action/reaction. The toughness of a bike is deceiving, as it's a mechanical device. It doesn't make the rider 'tougher', but it does add some to the durability of the bike and rider. But if a bike is ever shot, especially with some of the weapons in 40K, it should pretty much disintegrate.

What it comes down to is that bikes are under costed and have no bearing on how they would actually perform on a battlefield. If they ignore difficult/dangerous terrain, then they should be reduced in speed to 6", with a 1d6" turbo boost. Allow them to mount a heavy weapon, but there is no way they should have relentless. They should get +1 toughness, but an armor save of 4+ (instead of 3+ or even 2+). Then they will be costed about right.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The other issue is that other platforms are consistently mediocre or bad.

Forget about the durability difference between a Tactical Marine and a Biker Marine. The Tactical Marine squad can't double up on special weapons OR Heavy weapons. This makes them impossible to specialize at larger squad numbers, and at the same time costing more to take that damn heavy weapon. Meanwhile, Bikers are typically taken at 5 dudes but at least take two of the same special weapon. Their purpose can be defined. The Tactical Marine cannot.

See where I'm going with this?


Grav Cannon trumps this argument. It can be used as a Special Weapon as it can be fired on the move, it's also good against many target types, so no need to specialize. Grav Cannon uber alles.

No, the Grav Cannon can sorta fire on the move as once it moves it is 12" range.
There's a reason it doesn't work outside of Skyhammer Devastators on PA Marines ya know.

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If I were rewriting this, I'd have different armor types confer a relentless property to different weapons. For example, I'd have power armor allow one to use boltguns relentlessly, but not lascannons. I'd let the guard have analogous armor with inferior protection. Since we have stabilization arms in real life.
   
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Dallas area, TX

Martel732 wrote:
If I were rewriting this, I'd have different armor types confer a relentless property to different weapons. For example, I'd have power armor allow one to use boltguns relentlessly, but not lascannons. I'd let the guard have analogous armor with inferior protection. Since we have stabilization arms in real life.

I feel like that gets a bit convoluted. It would be easier just to remove Relentless from the Bike Type and than add it back to certain units, like Attack Bikes. Maybe add a "catch-all" for bikes that start equipped with a Heavy weapon, or ones with 2 riders. That way Bikes that start with Assault or Rapid fire guns, then upgrade to heavy weapons do not get Relentless (hopefully helping to balance Scatter bikes)

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/26 17:51:36


   
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In previous editions only the weapons mounted on the bikes were relentless. I know it was in 3rd, maybe 4th. This would give the TL’d bolter a nice perk (which was more relevant with the older rapid fire rules) and keep attack bikes working. But would take grav bikes down a peg.

Wouldn’t hurt scatbikes.

I think going to a 1-in-3 weapon option for all bikes would also help. It would tone down the pure spammy nature of a lot of bike lists. Marine bikes would either have to loose a special to keep 3 man MSU builds, or ramp up to 6 man squads to keep their firepower. Eldar would either have to hang back and have one scat do the work, or get in close for the cats to lend their fire. And they don’t want to get close.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Not to get too much into Design philosophies, but I'm a strong proponent of opportunity costs in 40k for movement. 3rd edition was a little too restrictive, as you either didn't move and shot full effectiveness, or moved and often didn't shoot at all, but the current system allows you to do too much with a unit during a turn.

As such, I like the idea of treating Bikes like mini-vehicles. If they move 6" or less it's full BS, and if they move more than 6" it's snap-shots only, but they're still otherwise "relentless".

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Dallas area, TX

 Yarium wrote:

As such, I like the idea of treating Bikes like mini-vehicles. If they move 6" or less it's full BS, and if they move more than 6" it's snap-shots only, but they're still otherwise "relentless".

Oh I kinda like this. But maybe say that they just lose Relentless if they move more than 6" period. Bikes that are designed for CC typically have assault weapons anyway (or if they have rapid fire weapons, they aren't worth firing before the charge anyway)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/26 18:30:03


   
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 Galef wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
If I were rewriting this, I'd have different armor types confer a relentless property to different weapons. For example, I'd have power armor allow one to use boltguns relentlessly, but not lascannons. I'd let the guard have analogous armor with inferior protection. Since we have stabilization arms in real life.

I feel like that gets a bit convoluted. It would be easier just to remove Relentless from the Bike Type and than add it back to certain units, like Attack Bikes. Maybe add a "catch-all" for bikes that start equipped with a Heavy weapon, or ones with 2 riders. That way Bikes that start with Assault or Rapid fire guns, then upgrade to heavy weapons do not get Relentless (hopefully helping to balance Scatter bikes)

-


The game needs convoluted to make the units distinct. Having 80% of the units mopped up as if they were the same by a few sweet spot weapons sucks. Likewise, giving armor types some additional properties helps distinguish them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/26 19:42:52


 
   
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 Vaktathi wrote:
In reality, bikes would be awkward, fragile, and clumsy combat units, and would be atrocious as firing platforms, there's very little about them that bears any resemblance to anything that could possibly be considered a "stable firing platform". The idea that a bike should be Relentless is more than a wee bit silly.


You're spot on considering the Relentless, but otherwise people have used bikes for a lot of really odd stuff. IIRC the French and Spanish armies have used bikes to carry recoilless rifles for AT work, for example. It is a fast and agile platform to get the gun where it needs to be, preferably aiming at the weakest armor facing of an enemy armored vehicle.
   
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 Galef wrote:
 Yarium wrote:

As such, I like the idea of treating Bikes like mini-vehicles. If they move 6" or less it's full BS, and if they move more than 6" it's snap-shots only, but they're still otherwise "relentless".

Oh I kinda like this. But maybe say that they just lose Relentless if they move more than 6" period. Bikes that are designed for CC typically have assault weapons anyway (or if they have rapid fire weapons, they aren't worth firing before the charge anyway)

Haha, then you'd like what my idea actually is; make Bikes into Fast Chariots with 1HP.

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Spetulhu wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
In reality, bikes would be awkward, fragile, and clumsy combat units, and would be atrocious as firing platforms, there's very little about them that bears any resemblance to anything that could possibly be considered a "stable firing platform". The idea that a bike should be Relentless is more than a wee bit silly.


You're spot on considering the Relentless, but otherwise people have used bikes for a lot of really odd stuff. IIRC the French and Spanish armies have used bikes to carry recoilless rifles for AT work, for example. It is a fast and agile platform to get the gun where it needs to be, preferably aiming at the weakest armor facing of an enemy armored vehicle.
IIRC these were not fired on the move, the bike was used to get into position, and then would be dismounted and fired from a tripod or something, and then remounted after firing to move to a new position. The scooters were just a transport for the gun, they didnt have any way to shoot from the bike if I recall.

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That would be a good niche for bikes IMO. We need some more forethought required for the shooting units in the game. The last two editions have brought a glut of highly mobile devastating ranged options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/26 20:28:59


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Do you think 40K is abstracting dragoons with the current rules? Or they are relentless "because".
   
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I dont think 40k is abstracting Dragoons, dragoons would be dismounting and fighting on foot, while Bikers clearly do not do this.

Really theyre fundamentally based on Judge Dredd bikes, which kinda work within that universe of mad maxesque highway chases with small arms exchanges on limited angles of traverse due to being on roads and whatnot, but this doesnt really work at all for 40k really, and especially not with bikes sporting heavy weapons and fighting close combats.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/26 20:32:55


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Dallas area, TX

 Yarium wrote:
 Galef wrote:
 Yarium wrote:

As such, I like the idea of treating Bikes like mini-vehicles. If they move 6" or less it's full BS, and if they move more than 6" it's snap-shots only, but they're still otherwise "relentless".

Oh I kinda like this. But maybe say that they just lose Relentless if they move more than 6" period. Bikes that are designed for CC typically have assault weapons anyway (or if they have rapid fire weapons, they aren't worth firing before the charge anyway)

Haha, then you'd like what my idea actually is; make Bikes into Fast Chariots with 1HP.

Wait, so 1 HP for the bike, 1 wound for the rider? What would the AV of the bike be? This is an interesting idea

   
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 Galef wrote:
 Yarium wrote:
Haha, then you'd like what my idea actually is; make Bikes into Fast Chariots with 1HP.

Wait, so 1 HP for the bike, 1 wound for the rider? What would the AV of the bike be? This is an interesting idea

I'm guessing it'd be AV10, open-topped. Also would want to include a rule that the model is removed when destroyed and doesn't become a wreck.

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Bikes having relentless probably doesn't have anything to do about accuracy, considering any kind of movement make a weapon inaccurate from a realistic standpoint. When you consider why a weapon is heavy or not, it would require set up, and the reason for the set up is not because it would be harder to hit the target, but because the recoil would knock you straight on your ass, send the weapon flying out of your hand, or rip your arms off (or all three!) if you tried to hip fire it. A bike then provides a mount for the weapon that can take the recoil and be able to move it. This is not completely realistic, as everyone has post above has said, but this is also the same game where all closed topped transports seem to come equipped with stasis modules which keeps their passengers safe from safe unless it explodes

As for if the SHOULD have relentless? I would say yes (as well as the added toughness). Bikes need to be a competitive choice compared to vehicles (yeah yeah, I know vehicles aren't that hot, but that's not going to be fixed by removing relentless on bikes), and without it they lean closer to shooty version of jump pack units, which aren't taken outside of formations that require them. Extra movement is not worth it on its own then transports can give your that movement and several other bells and whistles for roughly the same cost.

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 Yarium wrote:
 Galef wrote:
 Yarium wrote:
Haha, then you'd like what my idea actually is; make Bikes into Fast Chariots with 1HP.

Wait, so 1 HP for the bike, 1 wound for the rider? What would the AV of the bike be? This is an interesting idea

I'm guessing it'd be AV10, open-topped. Also would want to include a rule that the model is removed when destroyed and doesn't become a wreck.


Also they can only explode d3 inches instead of d6. How much fuel can those things actually hold?

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