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As a new gamer I sat on the fence for a few weeks deciding whether to collect Chaos or Loyalist SM & have finally opted for the latter (Imperial Fists...I like yellow...)

I'm getting the 'Start Collecting' box set for Christmas & painting it up over the festive period. My plan is to run the Terminator Captain as my HQ, give him a Terminator assault squad for company, and pack them in a Land Raider. Then I'll buy another tactical squad to finish off my starter army.

I'm thinking the termies & Land Raider will dish out the damage, the tactical squads will hold objectives/ be the jack of all trades, and the dreadnought will back up the termies once they disembark the LR.

Is this a sound starter force & tactics philosophy? What are the main weak points in this force, what would you change, and what weapons choices do you suggest for the LR/ dread/ tactical squads?

Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should add I'll only be playing in small scale, social games.

Terminators with an HQ in a landraider is expensive, especially in games smaller than 1850 points, and if you're up against certain opponents will not be the best, but for a starting list it isn't bad.

The dreadnought is a fun choice, and can be good if supported by threat saturation.

I would definitely invest in rhinos for the tactical squads. They really help with mobility and they help protect your tactical squads and get them in range to use that IF bolter drill.

Happy wargaming!
~Mikey

Land raiders are terrible. You are better off deep striking with drop pods and coming in from deep strike using teleport homers/locator beacons. There is, in fact, an entire thread about how terrible the land raider is. It is a 150 pt tank at best.

Terminators in a Land Raider with an HQ are going to be in excess of 600pts. If your opponent runs deathstars that it's worth taking 600pts of stuff to blend that's all well and good, but in most games they're never going to have a chance to make their points back.

Even leaving competitiveness aside Land Raiders make small-scale social games weird since they're easily removed by people who have the tools to do it (Wraithguard, drop-Meltas, that sort of thing) and utterly impervious to people who don't (Orks, for instance).

A second Tactical Squad is absolutely the right buy once you've got the Start Collecting box, but I'd suggest holding off on the Terminators/LR. Assault Marines/Vanguard Veterans, Bikes, Devastators, Drop Pods/Rhinos/Razorbacks, and/or a Predator or Vindicator will get you more tools for small/casual games, more flexible options, and showcase a broader selection of the Space Marine rules to help you figure out what you like and what you want to do with your army as a whole.

*EDIT* Noticed the mention of the Imperial Fists further up. Definitely go for more Tactical Marines and strongly consider Devastators.

Also, if you want to play Imperial Fists, seriously consider Sternguard. Sternguard are pretty good anyway, and Imperial Fist chapter tactics work very well with them.

I enjoy fielding assault terminators in a LR, but it is a ton of points. I would not do it in anything less then a 1,500 list.

While often panned as sup-par (and they are) tactical terminators are OKish in a casual environment. And fluffy and fun. You could take a squad of them as backup for the captain. But in all honesty, a terminator captain is going to be one of your less used options as your collection grows. Nice looking mini though.

You probably want to look at the codex and see if any formations leap out at you. Working up to a battle demi-co is a solid core of a marine list. Adding some vets to give it some teeth in the form of a 1st company TF is a good next step.

Sternguard are very good, and the box is a treasure trove of bits. Devestators is another good pick. Not only can you field them as a HS pic, but there are plenty of spare guns to add to your tac squads.

Great answers guys, thanks. Still waiting for my codex to arrive so when it does it sounds as if I have a fair bit of reading to do!

From your comments it looks like maybe a Devastator squad is a possibility & a logical expansion. No doubt I will also learn the importance of the Rhino.

I understand re: the Terminator Captain, he just seems the obvious initial HQ choice as he's in the starter box set. Perhaps teaming him up with some tactical terminators & letting them slog it out on foot (to begin with) would be more fitting to the scale of games I'm likely to encounter.

Forgive my ignorance; I've heard sternguard are worthwhile in an IF army...but what is their role exactly?

Also what is the best weapon set up for my dread to offer effectiveness on the tabletop whilst fitting in with IF fluff?

Apologies for the annoying questions of a beginner.

SaltySeaDog wrote:
Great answers guys, thanks. Still waiting for my codex to arrive so when it does it sounds as if I have a fair bit of reading to do!

From your comments it looks like maybe a Devastator squad is a possibility & a logical expansion. No doubt I will also learn the importance of the Rhino.

I understand re: the Terminator Captain, he just seems the obvious initial HQ choice as he's in the starter box set. Perhaps teaming him up with some tactical terminators & letting them slog it out on foot (to begin with) would be more fitting to the scale of games I'm likely to encounter.

Forgive my ignorance; I've heard sternguard are worthwhile in an IF army...but what is their role exactly?

Also what is the best weapon set up for my dread to offer effectiveness on the tabletop whilst fitting in with IF fluff?

Apologies for the annoying questions of a beginner.

Dude, don't apologize. We were all beginners once too, we all had buttloads of questions.

Sternguard can be kitted out to handle most things.

Vehicles? Meltas and combi-meltas.

Hordes? Heavy flamers and combi-flamers.

Monstrous Creatures? Hellfire rounds.

JNA, thanks for your patience. This is a steep learning curve!

One thing I can't get to grips with (and no doubt it'll make more sense once I understand the rules & have read the codex) is that many units seem to have the same names, and must therefore fulfill vaguely the same role...for instance an SM assault squad, assault terminators, assault centurions...why would you field one over the other? Or are the different units geared towards different game sizes?

Assault Squads are the fastest.

Assault Terminators are the most durable... Sorta.

Assault Centurions are the most deadly. And, due to some shaky rule writing, also probably the most durable against anything that isn't S10 AP2.

Sternguard are a super solid choice. Even with combis. The special issue ammo is great.

Am I right in thinking the general IF army is a 'come & get it' type force, rather than racing off to strike first? If so how, in your experience, do IF armies differ from other SM armies (if at all) both in model choice & basic tactics? Is there a fundamental rule or image I should keep to?

Yes, because they have bolter drill and siege masters.

IF are a generically solid marine army. They don’t really excel at any one aspect, but have some generically good rules that shore up the basic guys. Fluff wise, they are stubborn siege experts, who should do well in gunlines,fire support, etc. Each chapter has different strengths. But that does not mean you must follow them. For example, as an Ultramarine I still field bike squads. White Scars do that a heck of a lot better then I can. But they fit into the rest of my list as a little mobile fire support, and I don’t feel like working in allies, or re-jiggering my whole list. But if your idea of a fun marine army is very bike centric, you might want to look at them. And you list will work better if you play off your strengths. But don’t shoehorn your IFs into taking nothing but bolters, just because you have bolter drill.

Seige master makes their devs good for blowing up tanks. Bolter drill helps tac marines (and sternguard) shoot up the infantry.

Sternguard, with their special ammo, are really good at taking down most non-vheicle units. If you want to spam combi weapons, they can take down anything. But that can get expensive. They work really well in drop pods. Gets them into optimal firing range without getting shot first. Assuming everything goes well. (drop pods can be risky vs. some armies and skilled players). So in addition to being a pretty solid gunline army, they also make a pretty decent pod army. Or combine the two with a hybrid drop list. Take 3 pods, put some nasty stuff in them. Dig in with the rest of your army for some long range fire support.

There really isn’t a wrong answer.

One thing with marines is that many units can do the same job, with slight variation on how they work. Each one has some subtle pros and cons. And they can all fit together in different types of lists, depending on what kind of flavor/mood you want. And many units can be geared for different jobs. Your dread could take a MM or the AsC, and a HF under the fist and ride to battle in a drop pod to rampage through your enemy’s backfield. Or you could give him the TLLC and have him march up with your troops, providing long range support. (as a note, the dreads arms should fit onto the torso snuggly without glue, so you can swap them around without bothering to magnetize)

Find what you like, and work with it. Unless you are playing at the very competitive level, there is a lot of wiggle room in lists. Take the things you like, and then build the rest of the list to support them/cover their weaknesses.

Hey Salty,

As Nevelon and a few others have said Sternguard would be my first choice in terms of additional support for your starter set.

The issue really is with marines now you need a delivery system (rhinos or pods). Sternguard are fantastic in a pod but there's space for 10 marines in there. Realistically to get the best out of sternguard you want 2 boxes of them, 10 veterans jumping out of a drop combat squaded can take out two targets turn one reliably. That would be a drop pod and two boxes of sternguard, but then you still need the second box of tacticals you've identified and then you're back to needing a delivery system... (rhinos work best in my opinion).

The other thing i've found with sternguard is that if you've got something equally as scary on the board your opponent is forced to pick which one he wants to kill. So while sternguard aren't particularly long lived you can increase their survivability with target saturation.

If I were in your position I'd personally get the second lot of tacticals and some rides (even though they are better IMHO in Rhinos buy the Razorback so you have options) and then take a look over the codex as Nevelon said and figure out what direction you want to take your army. You'll have enough to build and paint for now and get playing some small games and see where you feel your lacking based on what people in your area tend to bring... Find yourself up against guard tank columns alot? Drop pod Sternguard. Hoardes or orks or infantry? say night night with a thunderfire or two or a Vindicator etc. ect. This way using a couple of tacticals as the core of your army will make you learn what a power armour marine can do without getting distracted by relying on specialist units too early, you'll quickly figure out where you need to improve.

Just a couple points though to consider.

Don't stick a Terminator captain in a Land Raider with assault terminators this early in gaming. That is a lot of points and a very very specialist unit that will attract a lot of fire and is likely to have the L/R wrecked and your passengers stranded with no-one to assault more often than not. I do use a terminator assault squad in a L/R atm but I wouldn't risk my HQ in a bullet magnet unit like that and I have also learnt the hard way how to appropriately support this unit.

The dreadnought you get in the Starter set is a Venerable Dread and the weapons options you get if they're the same as the individual Venerable Dread box are the Plasma Cannon, A/Cannon and TLLC. Don'd glue these in as you can pick a shoulder to match the power fist shoulder and then the weapons just slide in and out so you can swap them out as you please.

Finally it will depend on how confident you are at modelling etc. but if you haven't considered it yet think about magnetising minis. If this is something that you think you'd want to try do it early!

Don't worry too much about what to buy next after that as most of us marine players will probably tell you after you've caught the bug you'll end up with nearly everything in the codex. I've now accepted my fate and my bank balance is just going to have to deal with it.

Oh and I nearly forgot, welcome to the hobby.

Pr3Mu5 wrote:
That would be a drop pod and two boxes of sternguard, but then you still need the second box of tacticals you've identified and then you're back to needing a delivery system... (rhinos work best in my opinion).

Just on a modeling POV: I’ve found that the vet boxes are so over the top with the bling, that you can take the box of sternguard, half a box of basic tactical marines, and shake them together to get a 10 man squad of sternguard. Considering the cost of the boxes, it’s a good way to stretch your hobby dollar out a bit.

Another thing with the vet boxes: You can also think of them as the new multipart captains box. I made my jump pack captain by basically taking the coolest looking bits out of the VV box and sticking them all on one guy. Then I used one assault marine worth of parts to replace the stuff I took so I still had a 5 man squad. You could do the same with the sternguard, to make a foot captain.

For Sternguard I never understood why you need an expensive kit for them when you can just use a box of tacticals to get a 10 man squad. End of the day its just 10 marines in power armor armored with bolters.

 Vankraken wrote:
For Sternguard I never understood why you need an expensive kit for them when you can just use a box of tacticals to get a 10 man squad. End of the day its just 10 marines in power armor armored with bolters.

While true, the same could be said for a lot of stuff. All sternguard need is a slightly different paintjob. White trim on the shoulders to denote 1st company. White helmets if you roll that way. Maybe a painted cross to represent the crux terminus on the shoulder. Extra points for rolling them an additional time through your bits-box for more pouches/purity seals/bling. Some different chapters paint schemes may vary.

But their box lets them be so much more. 2 of every combi weapon. 1 or 2 (I forget) of each special. “Basic” bolters (which are anything but). A HF and a HB. More sculpted shoulder pads then helmets then you need for just 5 guys. Cool bodies with tabards and embellishments. Whistles. Bells. All that. And the bag of chips.

You do pay for it. It’s an expensive box. $50 for 5 guys. You can get a box of tacticals, 10 guys for $40. Which is one reason I suggest cutting the vet box with spare PA bodies from the tac one. The sternguard box is such concentrated awesome that it can afford to be toned down, and $10 per man is a little rough to swallow.

And all the parts you don’t use will find good homes elsewhere in your army. All the rest of the sergeants in your army will be glad for some extra sparkle.

 Nevelon wrote:
you can take the box of sternguard, half a box of basic tactical marines, and shake them together to get a 10 man squad of sternguard.

This is definitely true for many people and I've seen some good examples, personally though I wanted all my sterguard to have the robes you get on the legs in the box and the combi weapons are magnetised for 8 of the 10 I have but you can easily make ten out of a box of 5 and some tac squad guys. It definitely makes sense with the current cost of boxes but then again that's why I don't buy anything from GW and have developed a rather efficient paint stripping process for second hand minis I pick up...

Anyway for the purposes of this thread and the OPs question one box would definitely do the job.

I'm thinking of picking up Sternguard. Is there a place that shows you what weapon is what?

For instance, in my start collecting box, my specialist had a lot of options but i didn't know what they were until i started googling... and even then i'm not entirely sure what i put on him.

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm thinking of picking up Sternguard. Is there a place that shows you what weapon is what?

For instance, in my start collecting box, my specialist had a lot of options but i didn't know what they were until i started googling... and even then i'm not entirely sure what i put on him.

There used to be pictures in the rulebook/codex of all the guns, but I have no idea if they still do that. I don’t know of any good reference pictures off hand to point you to. Google is a safe bet. One thing that compounds the issue is that they have changed looks over time, and some look different in different kits.


Gun in the top right (43) is a flamer
95 is a combi-melta
The rest of the normal guns on the frame are normal bolters
Big ones are a heavy bolter and a heavy flamer

From the top left going down:
c-melta
grav gun
meltagun
plasma gun

Below the legs are two combi-plas, and 2 combi-flamers
Under them are the two stormbolters, the grav pistol, and 2 combi-gravs.


As for what to give a squad, that is a very complicated issue. For tacs, a good rule of thumb is to give the sarge a matching combi to the squad’s special. If you give them a heavy, pick something that works with the squad.

For sternguard, you can spam combis in a pod (I wouldn’t do that footslogging) or run them bare-bnoones. My prefered load is 10 guys, 2xheavy flamers, in a pod. You can take a guy out if you need room for a HQ. 5x combi melta, 2xHF, 3 normal guys is a very high impact load. combat squad out of the pod, melta something to death, and flame the contents (if a transport) or something nearby.

Oh that is insanely useful information you just shared.

I wanted the grav gun on my specialist and it looks like i picked the right one. I put a pistol and power fist on my sarge. Probably not the smartest thing to do in retrospect but live and learn. I didn't expect to make great decisions right out of the gate. All of my marines are using boltguns. (Well, Storm Bolters, if i can pay the points). I did put the heavy flamer on my dreadnought instead of his bolt gun. So, I figure I should be able to fend off a melee attack a little bit with that stuff.

If you don't have them painted, you can still change out the weapons with a little bit of careful work. Magnets are your friend here. If you don't want to do the magnet thing, we used to pin arms and weapons on figures by drilling tiny holes and using cut off pieces of paper clips. If you want to get really fancy, use very small brass tubing and fine wire that just fits in the tubing. They will wear and loosen up over time, but a light coating of thinned paint on the pin will make things tight again for a while. As cheap and effective as the magnets are, they are all I usually use any more.

You will never get the perfect loadout, and if you do, then the meta will change and mess it up. Even playing at different point levels will change the roles certain units need to play. Nothing is more frustrating than being stuck with a loadout that isn't working for your army after you have already painted it. I highly recommend making your weapons interchangeable from the start.

Sounds like you are already off to a great start. I really like the looks of Imperial Fists. Nothing quite says, "Go ahead, shoot at us. We're too tough to be afraid." like painting your whole army in High Vis Yellow! Their style of play it pretty rough and tumble too. Good Luck!

As a veteran marine player who has tried what you are going to do........Land Raiders are a waste of money and points, I sold mine.
As are terminators. Dont bother with those.
The strengh of marines are their 3 basic infantry, their powered armor veterans and droppods Spend what you would have on a land raider on drop pods.
Aso, for specialist you want a melta, cheap and always useful. Grav is reserved for something relentless.