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In general discussion of "what it would take" to balance 40k or make it less crazy, I imagine three simple fixes that by themselves would help a lot.

1) Invulnerable Saves may not become better than 3+ Invulnerable, unless the Invulnerable Save started off as a 2+ Invulnerable. For example, a Shadow Field can give a 2+ Invulnerable, but casting Sanctuary in a unit of Storm Shield Terminators will not improve the Invulnerable save to 2+.
2) Invisibility uses ITC Invisibility rules. Attacks against an Invisible are resolved as WS 1/BS 1.
3) Destroyer Weapons do not have a Deathblow result. Rather, a Destroyer Weapon is resolved as an automatic wound or Penetrating hit that does D3 wounds/HP, ignoring Feel No Pain (but does not cause Instant Death). Invulnerable Saves against a Destroyer Weapon are resolved with a -2 penalty (Dispersed Destroyer Weapons do not modify Invulnerable saving throws).

Honestly, I feel these three things would be a good band-aid for some of the...ahem, weirdness that is 7th edition.

I agree with the first two, but the Deathblow should remain pretty powerful. Perhaps resolve it as D3+3 hits instead of D6+6, but the whole "No saves of any kind" thing remains the same.

I honestly think D weapons are fine. Play a game against some as often as possible - I think you will quickly realize that they are powerful but not excessive.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I honestly think D weapons are fine. Play a game against some as often as possible - I think you will quickly realize that they are powerful but not excessive.

Nope nope nope. Maybe against MSU, but far to often if you have a larger or more expensive tanky model, destroyer weapons (and Stomp) become a game of "Roll a 6, win the game". The difference between rolling a 6 and anything else is incredibly vast. One D hit will kill any model that costs less than 1500 points, easily, or else it'll bounce off cover saves and invulns and do jack all.

The only issue I have with D is the sudden jump from D3 to D6+6. Like wtf.

D3+3 would be better overall. It scales better and isn't as much of a wtf result against tougher targets.

That said I do like your version where it's basically the same as the 2-5 result but removes FnP and makes ++ worse.


I mean in general I think D should be reworked so you don't roll on some yet another Random Table (same with Stomp), but that could just be me.


TL;DR I like these "Rule of 3".

Maybe a smoother damage curve? 1-2 is the result we all know, 4-5 also ignores cover, FNP, and forces rerolls of succesful invulns, a 6 does 3+d3 auto wounds.

That would have the downside of making Eldar D-Scythes and the like even better than they are now... something we really don't need.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I honestly think D weapons are fine. Play a game against some as often as possible - I think you will quickly realize that they are powerful but not excessive.

Nope nope nope. Maybe against MSU, but far to often if you have a larger or more expensive tanky model, destroyer weapons (and Stomp) become a game of "Roll a 6, win the game". The difference between rolling a 6 and anything else is incredibly vast. One D hit will kill any model that costs less than 1500 points, easily, or else it'll bounce off cover saves and invulns and do jack all.

One D hit which is a 6 will kill any model less than 1500 points (except for a few major exceptions). That's far from your average D hit and may not even happen in any given game.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I honestly think D weapons are fine. Play a game against some as often as possible - I think you will quickly realize that they are powerful but not excessive.

Nope nope nope. Maybe against MSU, but far to often if you have a larger or more expensive tanky model, destroyer weapons (and Stomp) become a game of "Roll a 6, win the game". The difference between rolling a 6 and anything else is incredibly vast. One D hit will kill any model that costs less than 1500 points, easily, or else it'll bounce off cover saves and invulns and do jack all.

One D hit which is a 6 will kill any model less than 1500 points (except for a few major exceptions). That's far from your average D hit and may not even happen in any given game.

Or more that it can happen 1 in 6 games. It's the extreme variation that makes it problematic for play. 1 in 6 games, your Lynx one-shots an Adamantine Lance and the other times, you're basically running an overcosted Demolisher Cannon.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I honestly think D weapons are fine. Play a game against some as often as possible - I think you will quickly realize that they are powerful but not excessive.

Nope nope nope. Maybe against MSU, but far to often if you have a larger or more expensive tanky model, destroyer weapons (and Stomp) become a game of "Roll a 6, win the game". The difference between rolling a 6 and anything else is incredibly vast. One D hit will kill any model that costs less than 1500 points, easily, or else it'll bounce off cover saves and invulns and do jack all.

One D hit which is a 6 will kill any model less than 1500 points (except for a few major exceptions). That's far from your average D hit and may not even happen in any given game.

Or more that it can happen 1 in 6 games. It's the extreme variation that makes it problematic for play. 1 in 6 games, your Lynx one-shots an Adamantine Lance and the other times, you're basically running an overcosted Demolisher Cannon.

It won't one-shot an Adamantine Lance. There is only one 10" D blast gun in the game. It will one shot a single knight, and that's that. Honestly that's about right for something the same price as a Knight. I don't see the problem; if anything, you could argue that D-weapons are underpriced in their current iteration (though I don't believe that's true).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I honestly think D weapons are fine. Play a game against some as often as possible - I think you will quickly realize that they are powerful but not excessive.

Nope nope nope. Maybe against MSU, but far to often if you have a larger or more expensive tanky model, destroyer weapons (and Stomp) become a game of "Roll a 6, win the game". The difference between rolling a 6 and anything else is incredibly vast. One D hit will kill any model that costs less than 1500 points, easily, or else it'll bounce off cover saves and invulns and do jack all.

One D hit which is a 6 will kill any model less than 1500 points (except for a few major exceptions). That's far from your average D hit and may not even happen in any given game.

Or more that it can happen 1 in 6 games. It's the extreme variation that makes it problematic for play. 1 in 6 games, your Lynx one-shots an Adamantine Lance and the other times, you're basically running an overcosted Demolisher Cannon.

It won't one-shot an Adamantine Lance. There is only one 10" D blast gun in the game. It will one shot a single knight, and that's that. Honestly that's about right for something the same price as a Knight. I don't see the problem; if anything, you could argue that D-weapons are underpriced in their current iteration (though I don't believe that's true).

A single Knight can run anywhere from 400-500 points. Daemons also have a few models that can get up to that level. Magnus, Stompas, and a few others are in the 700-pt range. This isn't even considering a lot of FW stuff, which can run into the thousands. Warhound? Dead. Heirophant? Dead. An'grath? Dead.
All of these models go down in one shot if the guy rolling it gets lucky, but otherwise would hardly care, which means that someone playing a tactically sound, intelligent set of strategies with his army could still easily lose to a single bad roll, while someone else bringing D weapons to the table could simultaneously lose the game for NOT getting that one really good roll. There's no in between. The only counter to this is "Don't take expensive models", but that's a crappy way to go into the game. Expensive models are fun. Losing a quarter or a third of your army to a single roll of the dice is not fun.

Even when not facing uber-priced models, the same issue still exists. Against Terminators with Storm Shields, you're either an overpriced Demolisher Cannon or you're blasting anything off the board in one shot. There's no inbetween - Either you're bouncing uselessly off jinks and invulns like everything else, or you're removing models wholesale from the board. That's not fun, and it's not strategy.

What if we went back to 4th Edition Destroyer, where we get rid of this Destroyer Table nonsense, and a D hit is simply an automatic, Instant Death wound that ignores cover, against vehicles it's an automatic Pen with an additional +1 to damage?

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I honestly think D weapons are fine. Play a game against some as often as possible - I think you will quickly realize that they are powerful but not excessive.

Nope nope nope. Maybe against MSU, but far to often if you have a larger or more expensive tanky model, destroyer weapons (and Stomp) become a game of "Roll a 6, win the game". The difference between rolling a 6 and anything else is incredibly vast. One D hit will kill any model that costs less than 1500 points, easily, or else it'll bounce off cover saves and invulns and do jack all.

One D hit which is a 6 will kill any model less than 1500 points (except for a few major exceptions). That's far from your average D hit and may not even happen in any given game.

Or more that it can happen 1 in 6 games. It's the extreme variation that makes it problematic for play. 1 in 6 games, your Lynx one-shots an Adamantine Lance and the other times, you're basically running an overcosted Demolisher Cannon.

It won't one-shot an Adamantine Lance. There is only one 10" D blast gun in the game. It will one shot a single knight, and that's that. Honestly that's about right for something the same price as a Knight. I don't see the problem; if anything, you could argue that D-weapons are underpriced in their current iteration (though I don't believe that's true).

A single Knight can run anywhere from 400-500 points. Daemons also have a few models that can get up to that level. Magnus, Stompas, and a few others are in the 700-pt range. This isn't even considering a lot of FW stuff, which can run into the thousands. Warhound? Dead. Heirophant? Dead. An'grath? Dead.
All of these models go down in one shot if the guy rolling it gets lucky, but otherwise would hardly care, which means that someone playing a tactically sound, intelligent set of strategies with his army could still easily lose to a single bad roll, while someone else bringing D weapons to the table could simultaneously lose the game for NOT getting that one really good roll. There's no in between. The only counter to this is "Don't take expensive models", but that's a crappy way to go into the game. Expensive models are fun. Losing a quarter or a third of your army to a single roll of the dice is not fun.

Even when not facing uber-priced models, the same issue still exists. Against Terminators with Storm Shields, you're either an overpriced Demolisher Cannon or you're blasting anything off the board in one shot. There's no inbetween - Either you're bouncing uselessly off jinks and invulns like everything else, or you're removing models wholesale from the board. That's not fun, and it's not strategy.

Every unit you listed has protections against D-weapons rolling 6s except the heirophant. Magnus flies and there is no Skyfiring D with the vast majority being blasts. Stompas have layered Power Fields, which absorb a single D hit automatically without any damage to the stompa itself. Warhounds have layered void shields, which also absorb a single D hit automatically. Angrath, like Magnus, is flying.

Seriously. Play with and against D weapons all the time. Everything you are afraid of getting nuked by them has some form of protection, even against the Deathblow result. Hell, even with the Deathblow result, the heirophant lives 50% of the time because d6+6 doesn't always equal ten.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I honestly think D weapons are fine. Play a game against some as often as possible - I think you will quickly realize that they are powerful but not excessive.

Nope nope nope. Maybe against MSU, but far to often if you have a larger or more expensive tanky model, destroyer weapons (and Stomp) become a game of "Roll a 6, win the game". The difference between rolling a 6 and anything else is incredibly vast. One D hit will kill any model that costs less than 1500 points, easily, or else it'll bounce off cover saves and invulns and do jack all.

One D hit which is a 6 will kill any model less than 1500 points (except for a few major exceptions). That's far from your average D hit and may not even happen in any given game.

Or more that it can happen 1 in 6 games. It's the extreme variation that makes it problematic for play. 1 in 6 games, your Lynx one-shots an Adamantine Lance and the other times, you're basically running an overcosted Demolisher Cannon.

It won't one-shot an Adamantine Lance. There is only one 10" D blast gun in the game. It will one shot a single knight, and that's that. Honestly that's about right for something the same price as a Knight. I don't see the problem; if anything, you could argue that D-weapons are underpriced in their current iteration (though I don't believe that's true).

A single Knight can run anywhere from 400-500 points. Daemons also have a few models that can get up to that level. Magnus, Stompas, and a few others are in the 700-pt range. This isn't even considering a lot of FW stuff, which can run into the thousands. Warhound? Dead. Heirophant? Dead. An'grath? Dead.
All of these models go down in one shot if the guy rolling it gets lucky, but otherwise would hardly care, which means that someone playing a tactically sound, intelligent set of strategies with his army could still easily lose to a single bad roll, while someone else bringing D weapons to the table could simultaneously lose the game for NOT getting that one really good roll. There's no in between. The only counter to this is "Don't take expensive models", but that's a crappy way to go into the game. Expensive models are fun. Losing a quarter or a third of your army to a single roll of the dice is not fun.

Even when not facing uber-priced models, the same issue still exists. Against Terminators with Storm Shields, you're either an overpriced Demolisher Cannon or you're blasting anything off the board in one shot. There's no inbetween - Either you're bouncing uselessly off jinks and invulns like everything else, or you're removing models wholesale from the board. That's not fun, and it's not strategy.

Every unit you listed has protections against D-weapons rolling 6s except the heirophant. Magnus flies and there is no Skyfiring D with the vast majority being blasts. Stompas have layered Power Fields, which absorb a single D hit automatically without any damage to the stompa itself. Warhounds have layered void shields, which also absorb a single D hit automatically. Angrath, like Magnus, is flying.

Seriously. Play with and against D weapons all the time. Everything you are afraid of getting nuked by them has some form of protection, even against the Deathblow result. Hell, even with the Deathblow result, the heirophant lives 50% of the time because d6+6 doesn't always equal ten.

You haven't ever played against a regular Stompa, have you? Stompas do not have Power Fields. Big Mek Stompas get d6 Power Fields, but they cost even more than regular Stompas, and then you need to increase their point cost even further to buy them decent weapons.
If you're flying Magnus, you either have to bring him in from reserves (So you're losing at least a turn of utility with him,) or start him on the board and pray the other player doesn't seize the initiative. Same with An'Grath. (Not to mention the other big 3 super-Daemons that I didn't mention, some of which can't fly.)
Warhounds are the only one that I mentioned who start on the board with actual protection, and that protection is a whopping 2 void shields.

I do play with and against D weapons fairly regularly, and more often than not when someone gets a turn one '6' result, the other player can just pack up and go home.

(Oh, and there absolutely is Skyfire SD, by the way. Any Tzeentch DP or Lord of Change can roll one, Fateweaver and Magnus both automatically get one, and there's a relic which can auto-get that Tzeentch DP or Lord of Change one regardless. Eldar also has some, and while Orks don't get SD with Skyfire, they do have a couple single-shot D weapons that are only slightly less accurate than normal BS when firing at flying targets.)


Either way, though, you're still missing my point - It's not just that the 6 result is too powerful, it's that the other results kind of suck! It's better than most other weapons against vehicles, sure, but against most infantry you're not any better off with a D weapon than you are with a S10 AP2 weapon, which is a huge problem - In order for D weapons to have any difference with a 2-5 result, they need to be firing at a multi-wound model with T6 or Eternal Warrior. Otherwise, it's the exact same result, which is a huge letdown. (Or you roll a 6, which utterly obliterates any target you're going to see in a normal game.)

So we should buff the mid-range results?

Also, it is worth noting that I have had Baneblades survive Deathblow results and that is absolutely a unit you can see in a normal game.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So we should buff the mid-range results?

Also, it is worth noting that I have had Baneblades survive Deathblow results and that is absolutely a unit you can see in a normal game.

We should buff the mid-range results, but nerf the '6' result. Destroyer weapons shouldn't be shrugged off four out of five times by someone hiding behind a tree, but they also shouldn't have a good chance to obliterate 500+ point models in a single hit.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So we should buff the mid-range results?

Also, it is worth noting that I have had Baneblades survive Deathblow results and that is absolutely a unit you can see in a normal game.

We should buff the mid-range results, but nerf the '6' result. Destroyer weapons shouldn't be shrugged off four out of five times by someone hiding behind a tree, but they also shouldn't have a good chance to obliterate 500+ point models in a single hit.

Why not? Meltaguns can blow up 300+ point models in a single hit. Think of this as the scaled up version.

What 300+ point vehicle can a meltagun oneshot?÷+

 MagicJuggler wrote:
What 300+ point vehicle can a meltagun oneshot?÷+

Upgraded Land Raiders, Land Raider Spartans, Leviathan Dreadnoughts, just off the top of my head.

That's a whole 'nother balance issue, but lemme put it this way:
A Melta weapom has to be within 12" or so. 18" for the absolute longest ranges. Then it has to pen, then it has to get past cover/invulns, then it has to roll a 6. Certain units can make it even less likely to Explode! (Venerable Dreads, for example.) It has no special effect on Infantry, and the most expensive models this can kill cost less than 400 points on the biggest extreme.

D weapons? You roll a 6. Period. Some targets costing well over 1000 points still go down in one hit.

I can't think of anything costing over 1000 points that will go down in a single D hit.

And you still have to hit with D weapons as well, and there are units with protections against this that are similar to the units with protections against melta.

Melta does have a lot more hoops to jump through than D (as you rightly point out) but considering a Meltagun is 10 pts and a D-weapon is ... considerably more expensive, I would hope that it does not have as many hoops to jump through to achieve the same result.

I also Agree with OP D-weapons need a looking at i think a roll of 1 - nothing 2 and 3 normal shananigans 4 and 5 should be something a bit more potent and then 6 should be d3+3 wounds and something like Blind test.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can't think of anything costing over 1000 points that will go down in a single D hit.

And you still have to hit with D weapons as well, and there are units with protections against this that are similar to the units with protections against melta.

Melta does have a lot more hoops to jump through than D (as you rightly point out) but considering a Meltagun is 10 pts and a D-weapon is ... considerably more expensive, I would hope that it does not have as many hoops to jump through to achieve the same result.

A Lord of Skulls on a 3+

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can't think of anything costing over 1000 points that will go down in a single D hit.

And you still have to hit with D weapons as well, and there are units with protections against this that are similar to the units with protections against melta.

Melta does have a lot more hoops to jump through than D (as you rightly point out) but considering a Meltagun is 10 pts and a D-weapon is ... considerably more expensive, I would hope that it does not have as many hoops to jump through to achieve the same result.

A Lord of Skulls on a 3+

That's not over 1000 points.

With upgrades it is

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can't think of anything costing over 1000 points that will go down in a single D hit.

And you still have to hit with D weapons as well, and there are units with protections against this that are similar to the units with protections against melta.

Melta does have a lot more hoops to jump through than D (as you rightly point out) but considering a Meltagun is 10 pts and a D-weapon is ... considerably more expensive, I would hope that it does not have as many hoops to jump through to achieve the same result.

A Lord of Skulls on a 3+

That's not over 1000 points.

I checked, he's correct. With a Skullhurler and a Daemongore cannon, it comes in at 1013 points.

Hierophants are another 1000+ unit that can go down in a single D hit.

Also, just for fun, I checked: A Big Mek Stompa does technically get Power Fields, (maybe just 1,) but they can cost more than 1k as well. And a Forge World Kustom Stompa can cost almost 1200, without buying its singular Power Field.

Honestly remove D form non apoc games.

D was never designed to be seen in game lower then like 4k, where if you lost a squad it was no big deal but in 1850 the fact we have D weapons is just silly.

To kill a Stompa, a single D hit would need two 6s in a row, which is very very unlikely.

I don't know anything about the Khorne thing because everyone agrees it's bad, but touche, I suppose.

The heirophant is also a contender for worst titan-sized model in the game and still needs a 4+ after a 6 to die in one hit.