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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





So, a close friend of mine just started 40k, he tells me he's been watching GW for a while, and they have made vast improvements over the last year, in terms of more customer friendly policies, and better balance. I'm highly skeptical, GW was Riding the nuke down waving their cowboy hat when I last checked. Has anything actually changed?

i hear the CEO was replaced by an actual gamer, and that balance is better, and that GW has acknowledged thier problems and are starting to correct them, bringing back tournaments, etc.. Is this all wishful thinking? Is balance still decided by dart board and codex creep? Do they still intentionally churn and burn new customers just to get cash? Still invalidate armies and army options in order to force you to buy new versions? etc?

Is there any hope?

Who's on top balance wise? Are there any actual tactics to the game now? or still just throw buckets of dice with shooting and hope to go first?

If they have made improvements, what have they- are they doing?
   
Made in au
Prescient Daemon Prince of Tzeentch






They've managed to start turning things around. I wouldn't say it's back to being great, rather they've made some good steps to get it going the right way at least.

   
Made in be
Furious Fire Dragon





There is a thread raging in the Dakka discussions about GW policies and improvements in general. Take a look.
Some people think that the improvements are superficial, other have more hope. My personal opinion is that "the new CEO is better" is just a meme, but other will bring different arguments.

For the balance of 40k, is all over the place. The game is riddled with unnecessary rules, some faction is pumped up because the designer plays it or just cannot do math. Some other faction is nerfed or just ignored. They do not re-write codices, they just add layers of new rules and see what sticks. It took 7 books for a reasonable improvement of Chaos Space Marines.

Still, the main problem of 40k is the design team. These people brought WHFB to its knees, and they are slowly doing the same with 40k.

As always, it depends from the gaming group if you can enjoy something from this mess.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/09 09:05:33


"One must have chaos in oneself to give birth to such heresy" - Nietzsche 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Mississippi

As Kaiyanwang said, huge discussion in another area about whether things have really changed.

Personally, it did seem like initially they were starting to turn the corner, but it's beginning to look like smoke and mirrors - things are still stupidly expensive, there's not even an attempt at rules balance and GW still believes anything they shovel will be consumed as if it were gold, no matter how shoddy the enclosed rules are.

If you were thinking of getting into 40K, I'd wait to see what 8th brings. For Age of Sigmar, plenty of better (and cheaper!) options available.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 09:02:32


It never ends well 
   
Made in be
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Belgium

Things do look up in a numerous ways compared to last year and before.

GW as been more in touch with their fanbase and are making efforts to be more "friendly" towards them.

Now the balance of the game, is not something that they can correct like this unfortunatly, there is still gaps between armies.

Problem comes from the lack of external playtesting.

Because ironicly, GW Studio sucks at their own game, for them its unthinkable why someone would want 3 times the same exact unit in an army instead of other things, thats why you end up with 2/3x Grav centurions or Drakes or other bullcrap.

its become more apparent when they did a Live game on Twitch, where it was apparent that neither of the guys playing had a solid grasp of the rules or even common battle tactics.

And its not news that their battle reports are riddeled with mistakes, errors and other things that doesn't make sense.

Ironicaly, they are too casual, to make a balanced game.

   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





The drop of 8th edition will likely prove where they're heading with things. Some want a more simplistic game, others want things to stay the same, and even more complain about it all but give no constructive advice other than "it should be balanced better" or "OP pls nerf". I personally would like them to cut things back big time: on decurions (the formations that give free stuff), but that's unlikely to happen as it definitely sells models. Free razorbacks for your whole army if you play this specific setup sells a load of razorbacks. On all the new MCs and superheavies, they keep adding bigger and bigger models that have completely changed the way the game plays because they can charge an arm and a leg for the stuff. On the fact that some armies are spread between several different books (chaos, skitarii/admech, all the formations that require you to buy $50 books even if all you want is a page of rules from it).

They have done a better job with FAQs, they've been doing more with tournaments and the community in general, they've started releasing a lot of get started boxes that, while they won't exactly get you started, are a good bargain. So we'll see where things go. If you're really unsure I'd wait to see what 8th edition does.

~3000 painted
W - a few
L - a bunch
D - a handful
2000 w/ 1200 painted, and 300 scions painted 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





There is too much gunk to clear out for the game to get fixed by the generally slow update cycle 40k. If the game is getting fixed it's going to be when 8ed drops and they rewrite all the codexes simultaneously.
   
Made in be
Furious Fire Dragon





 Slayer le boucher wrote:


Because ironicly, GW Studio sucks at their own game, for them its unthinkable why someone would want 3 times the same exact unit in an army instead of other things, thats why you end up with 2/3x Grav centurions or Drakes or other bullcrap.


The design team is composed by bumbling buffoons, but I fail to understand this sentence. They constantly write rules for formations pushing us to buy 2-4 copies of the same unit to make it barely functional.

"One must have chaos in oneself to give birth to such heresy" - Nietzsche 
   
Made in de
A Crystal Tree in the Dome of the Seers






Hamburg

Indeed, they got better but not good enough. I'd stay away from the game and enter something different.
Or I'd wait for the new edition which should come by midst of this year. Then you will see if things are getting really better.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 Slayer le boucher wrote:


Because ironicly, GW Studio sucks at their own game, for them its unthinkable why someone would want 3 times the same exact unit in an army instead of other things, thats why you end up with 2/3x Grav centurions or Drakes or other bullcrap.


The design team is composed by bumbling buffoons, but I fail to understand this sentence. They constantly write rules for formations pushing us to buy 2-4 copies of the same unit to make it barely functional.

And to make matters worse, "oh, if you run a bunch of this fairly powerful unit it gets all these buffs that make it even more powerful than it already was", creating even more internal balance issues with codices.

~3000 painted
W - a few
L - a bunch
D - a handful
2000 w/ 1200 painted, and 300 scions painted 
   
Made in fr
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





France

Maybe they are casual because, you know, 40k IS a casual game ?
I never understood why some people try to play it "competitively", when the only interests of this game are the miniatures and the background, and then complaint because it is "unbalanced".

   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





 godardc wrote:
Maybe they are casual because, you know, 40k IS a casual game ?
I never understood why some people try to play it "competitively", when the only interests of this game are the miniatures and the background, and then complaint because it is "unbalanced".

Because a game is competitive because the players make it competitive. You think the inventor of chess intended planned for ELO rating, FIDE, and Grandmaster rank? The nature of the game has nothing to do with competitive play

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 09:23:48


 
   
Made in au
Prescient Daemon Prince of Tzeentch






A game would likely only be able to be purely casual if there were no competition or potential of competition to it. So probably a single player game with no scores, like an open sandbox story telling game and also with no room for creating content to avoid players being able to create anything in which they might be able to compete or otherwise interact with other players.

But, because of human nature and because it's a game of 2 or more people, where one wins and one loses, it's rather impossible for it to never become competitive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 09:28:57


   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





 godardc wrote:
Maybe they are casual because, you know, 40k IS a casual game ?
I never understood why some people try to play it "competitively", when the only interests of this game are the miniatures and the background, and then complaint because it is "unbalanced".

Some level of competition is enjoyable, plus you never know when "oh that model looks cool" or "wow, some of these formations seem pretty fluffy and fun" turns into "holy crap this stuff is way stronger than your fluffy army".

~3000 painted
W - a few
L - a bunch
D - a handful
2000 w/ 1200 painted, and 300 scions painted 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





 n0t_u wrote:
A game would likely only be able to be purely casual if there were no competition or potential of competition to it. So probably a single player game with no scores, like an open sandbox story telling game and also with no room for creating content to avoid players being able to create anything in which they might be able to compete or otherwise interact with other players.

Actually there is a competitive scene for those (and all) video games and it's called Speedrunning and you compete on being able to complete videos games in the fastest time possible.

In fact there is a massive 7 day speed running marathon being streamed on twitch to raise money for charity RIGHT NOW.
   
Made in gb
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader



UK

Nope prices are still stupidly high, rules still suck the "positive" changes are purely cosmetic.
   
Made in au
Prescient Daemon Prince of Tzeentch






 CrownAxe wrote:
 n0t_u wrote:
A game would likely only be able to be purely casual if there were no competition or potential of competition to it. So probably a single player game with no scores, like an open sandbox story telling game and also with no room for creating content to avoid players being able to create anything in which they might be able to compete or otherwise interact with other players.

Actually there is a competitive scene for those (and all) video games and it's called Speedrunning and you compete on being able to complete videos games in the fastest time possible.

In fact there is a massive 7 day speed running marathon being streamed on twitch to raise money for charity RIGHT NOW.


I'll admit it's extremely hard to think of a game or activity that's impossible for someone to make competitive.

   
Made in fi
Infiltrating Broodlord






Finland

They have turned around their customer interaction and parts of their marketing. More content for customers about the hobby aswell.

Somehow people mix these with being the same as "change everything."

Which ofcourse, it is not. The balance and pricing is still somewhat same.

The new edition is coming, and it's taking some time. It can be a good thing it is taking time; having it being done in 2 weeks would almost automatically mean a bad end result. There's just so much content that needs a fix that I doubt there will be a fix of that magnitude. Some simplifying and small fixes here and there, maybe a few of the absolute worst offenders nerfed is what I expect but not much more.

One can of course interpret this as "nothing has changed" - not that it makes any sense though since obviously a lot has when looked at objectively.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 10:33:12


   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

godardc wrote:Maybe they are casual because, you know, 40k IS a casual game ?
I never understood why some people try to play it "competitively", when the only interests of this game are the miniatures and the background, and then complaint because it is "unbalanced".


Because much like a 'semi-casual' dress code, everyone's perception and expectation of what actually constitutes a 'casual game' is going to be very different. Moreover, being a casual player doesn't exclude someone from playing to win.

Runic wrote: having it being done in 2 weeks would almost automatically mean a bad end result. There's just so much content that needs a fix that I doubt there will be a fix of that magnitude.


Just give us 5th ed with reworked wound allocation and vehicle damage and call it a day. Maybe toss in allies because that seems inevitable anyway.
   
Made in be
Furious Fire Dragon





 godardc wrote:
Maybe they are casual because, you know, 40k IS a casual game ?
I never understood why some people try to play it "competitively", when the only interests of this game are the miniatures and the background, and then complaint because it is "unbalanced".


I see myself as a causal player. Never played cutthroat and played since 3rd. Nonetheless, we have reached a point in which there are armies almost unbeatable for other armies. A full windrider Eldar army is a completely fluffy army based on the BG of a specific craftworld. But such "fluffy" army means tons of scatterbike. There are fluffy options, or option based on model preference (say a full riptide/stormsurge tau army) that can be really frustrating to play against. No game will be fully balanced; even chess has white always starting first and the queen bein OP compared to other pieces.

But following the game since 3rd I think that we reached a ridiculous level.

"One must have chaos in oneself to give birth to such heresy" - Nietzsche 
   
Made in us
Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor




Speaking as someone who started in 5th? Well, the balance is definitely better than it was in 6th ed. It's difficult to compare to 5th, both because I wasn't very good at the game back then, so my relative understanding will be biased, and because it was a while ago, but I think the rules as they currently stand are about as balanced as they were in 5th, if in a different way.

There are still much better armies and much worse armies, just like in 5th, but unlike in 5th there's less of a 'The newest codex trounces all the old ones' vibe, it's more of a matter of arranging formations, psykers, and allies in the right way to stack buffs onto units.

However, like I said, it's still better than the clusterFun! that was 6th edition, especially early 6th edition, when the answer to fliers was a shrug and maybe an Aegis line. (Because four S7 shots was really going to scare a Helldrake. Or Four Helldrakes. Or a half dozen Necron Croissants.)

Psykers are still really powerful, but also in a different way. Instead of spamming in Psykers in order to get access to free re-rolls without any downsides, there's at least a *little* more tactical flexibility to it. Taking more than one Psyker has diminishing returns, because they share a Warp Charge pool that gets spread thin quickly, but it means that spamming cheap Psykers does allow for a lot of shenanigans that still can't be countered directly. Shutting down Psyker-powered Deathstars is easier than it was, but it's still not a cakewalk.
   
Made in us
Junior Officer with Laspistol




pontiac, michigan; usa

I started in 4th and played in a chunk of 5th and skipped 6th and a lot of 7th. 7th is not as balanced as 5th and not by a long shot. I'll admit back then guard were top tier but as a dark eldar player facing tau just watch a game of it. It's just a monster mash with the tau and dark eldar basically get tabled after only taking a few small models away. It's absolutely BS. Sad thing is with gargantuans or riptides banned from play tau would be very balanced alongside dark eldar. It's when they spam the cheese like riptides, stormsurge and ghostkeels in a formation that just kills the game.

Basically the balance is still garbage but it'll take time to fix if they can even do so.

I also don't care if 40k isn't made to be competitive. Anything can be competitive. I mean on the subject of single-player being competitive think about not just speed runs but achievements and playing using certain characters or with certain restrictions. I almost feel like the healers and support classes in a game can be made competitive which is just odd to me.

Of course i'm not saying being ultra-competitive is a good thing. I hate blizzard games and counter strike for that reason but that's because i wasn't a big fan of them. When warhammer fantasy died however i was super p***ed. We spent a lot of money only to be crapped on by GW. Thank god they fired the old company head's stupid ***. He totally deserved it for screwing over Fantasy players so badly. We can't even play a game we bought anymore at a local GW we bought it from for christ's sake. How horrible is that? It's probably the first time i've ever thought of boycotting a company and no nothing they've done to 40k is equal to that even with formations and awful balance. Sad bit is Fantasy was more balanced than 40k but they still didn't save it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/09 11:32:22


Join skavenblight today!

http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
Made in gb
Member of the Malleus






The core rules are as competent as they always were. The supplementary materials are as inconsistent as ever, except they're now far more numerous and include Forgeworld nonsense as well as everything else. Expect to pay upwards of £300 for a full set of game rules including the rules for all the armies, plus all the other game-legal gak. I'm not convinced Codex creep is an issue, since the top armies (Eldar, Tau, Daemons) are all using relatively old Codexes.

In terms of character I think the fatigue and disinterest in GW creative is starting to show. They're defaulting to Spess Mehrens a lot more than they used to; they've always been the stars of the setting, but now they seem to have gone from hyper-competent elites to the backbone of the Imperium's military. it sucks.

"We must not let them jeopardise.... THE BREWWWD!"
- - - - - - -
Outside of Celestine and her Geminii bodyguards, there are no plans in the next 5 months for any SoB boxes/kits.
 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Germany, Frankfurt area

Well, I think the pricing has definately improved in most cases. More often than not I had anticipated higher prices than they actually charged. And I was really baffled by their Arcanites of Tzeentch for AoS. 20 models (they are bigger than normal humans I think) for only 40 euros. I can't remember the last time you were able to buy models for 2 euros a piece.

Of course, they are still expensive and some stuff is definately overcharged (i.e. Kharn), but overall the new prices are better than in the past. Especially the many new boxed sets/games that provide heavy discounts. Sure, the had battleforces before with similiar discounts, but now you just have way more choice and also good discounts in the boxes with double digit retail prices. The old battleforces have all been 150 -180 euro IIRC

I think the balance also got better. Of course, Eldar and SM are still OP, but IIRC no release since then has been labeled as OP. Most new books have been strong and useful but not OP (GSC, legions, deathwatch)

Overall I would say GW is way better than 2 years ago, but I would wait until summer to get more info on 8th edition before I would fully commit back.

 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Right now it's all smoke and mirrors. Like I said in the other thread if GW got better. GW is like a bully. He would call you names, beat you up and take your lunch money. Well now GW dresses up nicely. They wear a suit now. They may not punch us anymore and call us names, but they still take our lunch money. Does that make them better?

40K is a mess. You need the main rule book of course, but need to go to page 30, then page 74, then back to page 34 to see how one rule works in full. That is if you are lucky. Then you might need this codex, then that supplement and this other supplement, and free dataslate. So to see how one rule works, that is a lot of books/data slates and page flipping to see how one rule works. It's a mess.

As for the CEO being a gamer. It could be true. Just because someone said it, it seems to be have taken as fact. There is no proof of this. They don't even know what this supposed army is that the CEO loves so much. So him being a gamer doesn't make a difference at all.

I say right now after seeing 2016, it's all smoke and mirrors. I have bought so much GW product last year than I have in like the last 5 years combined. So while it is all smoke an mirrors it got me to buy more. Thing is, GW is even worse than it was before. While we have "starter" boxes that are awesome value, when you want to buy something that is not in a "value" box you are still paying an insane price. Look at Betrayal of Calth from last year. Great box set value. Then GW decided to sell the minis individually. The prices were even more than what they would have sold regularly I believe and are just insane for what GW is working.

Also as I said, the rules are a mess. So the important thing that matters the most is, price and rules. Both are worse than ever before. So while GW looks prettier, don't bash their customers in public anymore (who knows what they think of us behind closed doors) they have "social media" now. You still can't comment on YouTube and they basically still control what is said and will delete comments that GW doesn't like.

So outside of "stater" boxes, GW is still very anti consumer polices and balance.

So while GW looks different, they are still same old same old when it comes to rules and price.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 13:20:03


Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in dk
Ambitious Space Wolves Initiate




Randers

Im a an old 5th ed player.

I quit i 5th, because my space wolves sucked ass, and i got wrecked hard usually... I just lost interest, i had no options and i couldnt play the units/models i liked because they were point waste.

Now i can take units i like, and then add in some: allies, formation, detachment, forgeworld. To make up for my Terminator spam (wich sucks nowadays)

I dont play hard, i play so both can have a game, and IF players have the mindset for that...Then its a GREAT game. If they like to win win win and you dont share view of the game... Well, then its a piece of gak game, and might aswell go elsewere. I have nice freinds and family to play against. So i love it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 13:30:56


Space Wolves 2500 pts
KDK 1500 points. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope




Terminators always sucked.
   
Made in be
Furious Fire Dragon





 BBAP wrote:
The core rules are as competent as they always were.


With the current rules, is easier to Snipe with a Mortar than with a Sniper Rifle. Also, Salvo. Psychic Phase. Random rolls everywhere.

The Codices break the game, but the core is far from being good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 13:51:11


"One must have chaos in oneself to give birth to such heresy" - Nietzsche 
   
Made in au
Trustworthy Shas'vre






40k is both better and worse balanced than it was before.

It's better in the sense that, most factions have at least one, if not multiple, optimized competitive lists that have a decent chance of getting to the top tournament tables. This is better than the days where there was a clear winner that wouldn't be toppled for months.

Its worse in the sense that the distance between a 'standard' / fluffy / take a bit of everything list and an optimised tournament list is wider than it ever has been. In 5th edition that may have looked like AAA vs college, but now its more like AAA vs little league.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK Manchester

It's still not really balanced. 7th edition has been one big mess.

I would wait until 8th edition. While you can't fault GW's commitment to interacting with the community more and making it more accessible, the core rules and external balance between codices is so startling that you can make separate tiers between factions.

Now, you can make it a good experience for both of you. But this requires a mutual mindset and a mutual understanding of house rules and whether you want a competitive match, or just a beer and pretzels scenario. But the fact that the players themselves have to initiate this themselves, shows there is something wrong with the functioning of the game itself.

Another thing I should add about accessibility - yes, bundle boxes are available, but it's still easily one of the most expensive hobbies out there - just to get the rules, unless you're borrowing/getting from illegal sources, costs £80 minimum. A full, painted army will easily set you over £500, maybe even double that depending on how you build it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 14:28:07


YMDC = nightmare 
   
 
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