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Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Suppose for a moment that every codex entry and every upgrade were actually playable/usable, and spamming the most OP stuff from your codex were no longer a good way to win the game, because OP stuff simply ceased to exist.

Suppose that every codex entry had a time and a place, and your best bet at winning was using a strategic blend of different things.

Spoken differently: suppose the game were balanced in such a way that an army composed of tactical marines (without grav), devastator marines (without grav), assault marines, rhinos, predators, vindicators, landraiders, terminators, etc...were actually capable of winning competitive games, even without a ton of free stuff and snowflake special rules.

If you kept using your current army, how do you think that your current army lists would fare competitively?

Edit:

Alternative phrasing of the OP question:

"My question is very simple:

Suppose that the game were actually balanced. What do I mean by "balanced"? That you couldn't point to a unit or option in your codex, or a set of units or options in your codex, and say: "Clearly, THIS is the one to use." What if every unit and every option in every single codex were actually playable and actually had a viable in-game use?

What would happen if, suddenly, simply spamming the "best" things in your codex no longer gauranteed you an advantage, and actually HURT you in game because it means that your army is running with a severe internal imbalance?

Would you, you personally, with the army lists that YOU currently use....would you win more games? Lose more games? Or win about the same number of games?"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/17 05:36:49


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Tradito, mind posting what you think a good list is?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 JNAProductions wrote:
Tradito, mind posting what you think a good list is?


"Good" is a relative term. My OP presupposes in advance that the current "good" lists would no longer be the exclusive good lists (or even good lists at all) if the game were actually balanced.
   
Made in au
Lady of the Lake






Dodged like a pro.

   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





I dunno....I guess I'd win half of my games?

To put it another way...the game would come down to skill. If I played against a better player, I'd lose unless I had a run of luck.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Well, why tactical marines without grav? Other options should be equally viable, but that doesn't mean grav should NOT have a place.

And why no Sternguard? Or Drop Pods?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 JNAProductions wrote:
Well, why tactical marines without grav?


Grav doesn't belong in the game in its current form. In a game where previous weapons have been surgical scalpels, grav is a fething mallet.

And why no Sternguard? Or Drop Pods?


Those things should clearly have a place too. But drop pods vs. rhinos should be an actual choice, not an obvious no brainer.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

You know, I think part of the reason why you tend not be listened to a ton, Tradito, is that most of us here think you aren't actually very good at 40k. I remember you posted a TAC list a while back that was just truly awful.

You obviously have some very strong opinions about 40k, but you don't seem to fully understand the game well enough to figure out if your opinions are valid.

I won't go on record saying the game is balanced-because it's not. Nids versus Eldar is a joke, most of the time, as is, say, Guard versus Marines, but the game at its core is not broken. And, because of that, you can, with some work, make good matchups.

I guess my main point is, when this inevitably devolves, actually listen to other people, and try to learn, rather than just having an opinion and never changing it.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





 Traditio wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Well, why tactical marines without grav?


Grav doesn't belong in the game in its current form. In a game where previous weapons have been surgical scalpels, grav is a fething mallet.

Doesn't mean grav should be removed from the game, it just needs to be balanced
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Or, hell, Grav could jsut be pointed appropriately. It can be the best at everything, but if a Grav-Cannon is 50 points, it really PAYS for being the best.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 JNAProductions wrote:
You know, I think part of the reason why you tend not be listened to a ton, Tradito, is that most of us here think you aren't actually very good at 40k. I remember you posted a TAC list a while back that was just truly awful.

You obviously have some very strong opinions about 40k, but you don't seem to fully understand the game well enough to figure out if your opinions are valid.

I won't go on record saying the game is balanced-because it's not. Nids versus Eldar is a joke, most of the time, as is, say, Guard versus Marines, but the game at its core is not broken. And, because of that, you can, with some work, make good matchups.

I guess my main point is, when this inevitably devolves, actually listen to other people, and try to learn, rather than just having an opinion and never changing it.


JNAProductions:

I posted a thread topic.

If you want to talk about something other than that thread topic, then feel free to discuss it elsewhere.

However, none of what you just said is, indeed, the thread topic, with the exception of this point:

"Nids versus Eldar is a joke, most of the time, as is, say, Guard versus Marines, but the game at its core is not broken. And, because of that, you can, with some work, make good matchups."

Those matchups do not exist. There is no such thing as "The Tyrranids codex versus the Eldar Codex." There is no such thing as "The Imperial Guard Codex versus Codex: Space Marines. All of it."

What does exist is this flyrant spam list versus that aspect host. What does exist is this sternhammer list with a 1st company task force of assault terminators versus that leeman russ spam list.

If you take all codex entries and options in the game, and not just a select few, no, the game isn't balanced. At all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/17 03:11:20


 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Of course, grav ISN'T the best at everything, it's just relaly damn good at killing MEQ and TEQ.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Melissia wrote:
Of course, grav ISN'T the best at everything, it's just relaly damn good at killing MEQ and TEQ.


Grav cannons + bolters can slaughter the vast majority of lists.

A white scars battle company with Khan, rhinos and grav cannons can beat pretty much anything.

Grav cannons can slaughter landraiders.

What kind of bull gak is that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/17 03:10:34


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Or, hell, Grav could jsut be pointed appropriately. It can be the best at everything, but if a Grav-Cannon is 50 points, it really PAYS for being the best.

Grav needs to wound as it was designed to wound in terms of fluff. Swarms are wounded on 6, regular infantry on 5+, Bulky on 4+, Very Bulky on 3+, and anything bigger on 2+. Then only strip a HP on a 6 for penetration rolls without the silly immobilization clause.

Done.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Hyperspace

This prompt is far too vague. The game is simply too far from being balanced for us to form projections about what it would be like if balanced.



Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Melissia wrote:
Of course, grav ISN'T the best at everything, it's just relaly damn good at killing MEQ and TEQ.


And vehicles, thanks to its immobilizations. (Only super-heavies really resist it.) And SEQs? (Scout-equivalents.) And the stuff that's reasonably resistant to it (5+ armor saves) dies to bolter fire. Only Daemons are really resistant to Grav, having an invuln and no armour.

It's hard to say it's not the best.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

They won't slaughter a legion of Orks before the Orks get stuck in combat, nor will they slaughter a hefty platoon of guardsmen before they can erase the marine squad in question, to give just two examples. I never said grav wasn't really damn good, but it's not OH MY FUGGING GAWD RUN FOR DA FUGGIN' HEELS RUHN FER YOHR LAAAIIIIIVES! material, either, which you're pretending it is. It's not an "I win" button. Hell, the strongest army in the game doesn't even have grav weapons, if I'm not mistaken (pretty sure Eldar doesn't anyway).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/17 03:15:17


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in ca
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






I'd probably do better since my unit selection is based on a combination of what models I like then one of everything as a secondary objective.

   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

OP, your question is a rather strange logic exercise.
I know that if the game was truly balanced playing normally should yield a 50% win.
I suppose also since most outcomes are determined by dice if it was balanced, most decisions will still yield a 50% win rate.
If I am a tactical genius compared to my opponents, my wins may shift to the relative skill I have.
If balanced it should not matter what army I have, it would fair relatively the same as my other armies (with an equal win ratio relative to my "genius")..

I must ask, what is the real question you are looking to have answered?
Should it be: Chaos and Orks would be better, and Eldar and Tau worse?

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
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 Talizvar wrote:
OP, your question is a rather strange logic exercise.
I know that if the game was truly balanced playing normally should yield a 50% win.


I'm going to have to agree with Peregrine on this:

I don't think that a truly balanced game would or should necessarily yield a 50% win for every list vs. every other list. I don't think that cultists should be able to win against landraiders, at least, not in terms of killing capacities.

If you have an internally imbalanced list, your win rate should suffer.

Flyrant spam shouldn't be a good strategy. Grav spam shouldn't be a good strategy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/17 03:28:47


 
   
Made in us
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What's left of Cadia

I'd probably win the exact same number of games. My issue isn't typically my list, it's typically the fact that I suck as a tactician that makes me lose games

TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
 
   
Made in ca
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Canada

 Traditio wrote:
I don't think that a truly balanced game would or should necessarily yield a 50% win. I don't think that cultists should be able to win against landraiders, at least, not in terms of killing capacities.
If you have an internally imbalanced list, your win rate should suffer.
Flyrant spam shouldn't be a good strategy. Grav spam shouldn't be a good strategy.
Which goes into some of the more "rock-paper-scissors" aspects of the game.
Playing units to their relative strengths (rather than good for everything models with cheap points values).
Which then leads to games like chess (which is less "balanced" and more "equal").
Where the relative skill of the player completely determines the win-rate.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Talizvar wrote:Which goes into some of the more "rock-paper-scissors" aspects of the game.
Playing units to their relative strengths (rather than good for everything models with cheap points values).
Which then leads to games like chess (which is less "balanced" and more "equal").
Where the relative skill of the player completely determines the win-rate.


Pretty much.

How do you think that your current lists would fare if the game were balanced in that way?
   
Made in us
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 Traditio wrote:

Pretty much.

How do you think that your current lists would fare if the game were balanced in that way?

I would get more wins with my 2++ rerollable sceamer star + 6 soul grinders list because the betters armies wouldn't better then my army
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Traditio wrote:
Talizvar wrote:Which goes into some of the more "rock-paper-scissors" aspects of the game.
Playing units to their relative strengths (rather than good for everything models with cheap points values).
Which then leads to games like chess (which is less "balanced" and more "equal").
Where the relative skill of the player completely determines the win-rate.


Pretty much.

How do you think that your current lists would fare if the game were balanced in that way?


Probably about the same, because they would go from being good vs. Orks and bad vs. Eldar to good vs Rock and bad vs Paper.

   
Made in us
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Ute nation

I love honesty test, and I see I'm the only one who selected I might win less. Really? No one plays eldar, marines, tau or summoning demon hordes? I'm on a 20 game win streak, that would be much harder to accomplish with a codex that was simply middling (like say straight dark angels or orks). I'd like to think I'm a decent player, but having a codex north of the balance point is also very helpful. If all codices were equal I should have lost some on bad rolls alone, or had an opponent better able to capitalize on a mistake I made and pull a win out. This entire threads theme is "My codex is fine, you guys are the problem".

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in us
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Springfield, VA

 Grimgold wrote:
I love honesty test, and I see I'm the only one who selected I might win less. Really? No one plays eldar, marines, tau or summoning demon hordes? I'm on a 20 game win streak, that would be much harder to accomplish with a codex that was simply middling (like say straight dark angels or orks). I'd like to think I'm a decent player, but having a codex north of the balance point is also very helpful. If all codices were equal I should have lost some on bad rolls alone, or had an opponent better able to capitalize on a mistake I made and pull a win out. This entire threads theme is "My codex is fine, you guys are the problem".


My 40k army is Armoured Battlegroup. This means that I already play the rock/paper/scissors meta that Traditio is suggesting. My tanks will wreck an army that is underprepared to fight tanks, and will lose to an army that overloaded on antitank weapons. Rarely do I find armies bring enough antitank to defeat my tanks unless they know they are coming, (I make no secret about it), in which case every single enemy squad has a meltagun, combi-melta, multi-melta, and meltabombs in a melta pod with melta spaceships and melta tanks.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





 Grimgold wrote:
I love honesty test, and I see I'm the only one who selected I might win less. Really? No one plays eldar, marines, tau or summoning demon hordes? I'm on a 20 game win streak, that would be much harder to accomplish with a codex that was simply middling (like say straight dark angels or orks). I'd like to think I'm a decent player, but having a codex north of the balance point is also very helpful. If all codices were equal I should have lost some on bad rolls alone, or had an opponent better able to capitalize on a mistake I made and pull a win out. This entire threads theme is "My codex is fine, you guys are the problem".

I play daemon summoning, but since my opponents are eldar, marines, and tau armies my match up got easier, not harder
   
Made in us
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Ute nation

In the game of rock paper scissors Necrons, Tau, Eldar, Space marines and chaos demons are a kick to the groin followed by a slap in the face followed by laughter that someone wanted to play a balanced game. Sorry that was much funnier in my head...

Also Daemons are number 3 right now, so most of the list you are fighting are weaker than yours.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/17 04:16:26


Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge




What's left of Cadia

I play mostly Mech Guard, so my situation is similar to 1126's. Either they have enough AT to deal with my armor wall or they don't

TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
 
   
 
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