Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Pretty self-explanatory question here. How do you feel about them?
On the one hand, I really like that they can add flavor and unique abilities to your special characters, adding an extra wrinkle to tactics and making player-favorite HQ models pack a bit more of a punch or add a neat bonus. I played Space Wolves with their 5th codex, back when they had the 'Sort-of-relics-but-not-really' abilities granted by Sagas, and it was great then, and I think it's great now.

On the other hand... It feels like a lot of the relics are simply too good, and taking them has become a huge no-brainer. If you're playing Orks, you bring the Lukky Stick. Period. Even if you don't want it, (maybe you got hit on the head really hard?) then there's zero reason not to take Da Finkin Cap on your Warlord, or Da Dead Shiny Shoota on pretty much anyone except a Big Mek with a Shokk Attack Gun.
Raven Guard have a relic that is literally a Jump Pack, with extra buffs and bonuses, for the same cost as a Jump Pack.
For barely more points than normal 3+ armor, the Armor of Scorn is just loads better. (Same with the Impossible Robe for Tzeentch, granting a 3+ invuln instead of 3+ armor for pretty much the same points investment.)
So it feels like Relics actually lose their specialness by being too good, because there's no reason not to take many of them, so they end up being seen in every single game.

Ooh, that's a good question.

My armies don't get relics (there aren't any for Armoured Battlegroup and in 30k, relics are campaign-system-only, not for PUGs without asking first).

Based on what I see from other armies though... yeah they're not relics at all. I think I've seen more enemy Orks with the Lucky Stikk than I have seen enemy Orks with Shokk Attack Guns, lol.

I don't know how to fix that problem though.

I like the idea of 40k magic items. However it would be good to have a wide variety of choices instead of one must take and some place filler items.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I don't know how to fix that problem though.

Wfb didn't have this issue as much in most editions. The solution is a lot more options, including a general list of "generic ones" that can be fluffed up to the army.
The limit of just using 1 should also be replaced by something less restrictive.

Well without Da Finkin Cap or DLS Orks lose a significant amount of power so....:(

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Ooh, that's a good question.

My armies don't get relics (there aren't any for Armoured Battlegroup and in 30k, relics are campaign-system-only, not for PUGs without asking first).

Based on what I see from other armies though... yeah they're not relics at all. I think I've seen more enemy Orks with the Lucky Stikk than I have seen enemy Orks with Shokk Attack Guns, lol.

I don't know how to fix that problem though.

I dunno either. Increasing the point cost just changes which relics are valuable.

A problem that I often see is that those relics are used to fill a gap that should really just be standard wargear.
For example, there's really no reason why the various Space Marine chapters can't have an AP2 sword in their wargear, that's limited to only being taken by their Captains/Chapter Masters, etc.
However, no such sword exists. Instead, each chapter except for Dark Angels has their own random variety version - Space Marines give a big Strength boost but can hurt you, Space Wolves is less of a strength boost, but is bolstered by the ability to mount it on Thunderwolves, and the Blood Angels choice sucks.

Honestly, I think the best solution would actually be to unlock as many relics per character as possible, but give the 'best' relics a small price bump. That would mean more unique builds, and I really don't think it would create things that are too imbalanced.
For example, Chapter Master Smashfather is generally OP because of his Gorgon's Chain. No other reason. Letting him take the Burning Blade and the Ironstone wouldn't make him any more points efficient, if anything, it would make him worse. However, it WOULD mean that those relics get a lot more use, because you're no longer limited by the number of good HQ choices you have that can have a relic mounted on them. Similarly, letting a Warboss take Da Headwompa's Killchoppa (Or whatever it's called) in addition to the Lukky Stick doesn't break the game, it makes the character more interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To mention another example of 'Fixing' the lack of useful gear: CSM don't have access to Artificer armor, but they DO have something like four relics that give a 2+ armor save without being Terminator armor.

look at this list of generic wfb items of the 8th edition with the knowledge that there was also a race specific magic item list to see how it could be fixed. Just imagine also having a similar list on top of what you already have.
Note that 8th wfb wasn't the best incarnation of this list but I am sure that you will get the general idea.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer/Tactics/Magic_Items

I like them. Some of them are overpriced, but at least none of them are underpriced and that's something we can all be thankful for.

I love relics, although I wish they were all good instead of some of them being utterly unusable crap. They do add a bit of interest to characters and armies, though.

Take Dark Angels, for example. We get the awesome Mace of Redemption (which I use in almost all of my lists), the Shroud of Heroes (also awesome), and the Foe Smiter (good but not nearly as good as the first two). Then we get the Monster Slayer of Caliban (utter overcosted garbage), the Eye of the Unseen (more of the same), and the Lion's Roar (not so bad, but still not great). If all of the relics were appropriately costed, then maybe they'd be worth considering. As is, some of them are just too expensive to justify whatever meager benefit they bring.

Yeah I do like them. I think they should be limited to 1 per army though. There is absolutely no reason that in one small skirmish an army should have 2 or even 3 of these super rare one of a kind items. I also like the sound of more common items in the main rulebook, and wouldn't impose this restriction on them.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I don't know how to fix that problem though.

Easy. Balance them, most likely by adjusting point costs, until they're no more powerful than "normal" options and are only taken for fluff reasons. The problem is not relics, it's powerful relics that are so good for their point cost that you automatically take them.

^^^ This.

I can't count the number of times I've seen Shield Eternal on a chapter master from the vanilla SM dex. Every other relic in that dex is "meh" at best. 50 points for a 3++, Eternal Warrior and Adamantium Will is a pretty good deal though. The Gorgon's Chain for IH is even worse.

FIrst, GW should make a census, asking people which relics they use most (a survey for each book with them). Noting that things like Monster Slayer of Caliban are way less used than Mace of Redemption, they could release codex updates buffing the former or nerfing the latter - by adjusting points, changing rules, etc.

I like most of them but some need balancing.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I don't know how to fix that problem though.

Easy. Balance them, most likely by adjusting point costs, until they're no more powerful than "normal" options and are only taken for fluff reasons. The problem is not relics, it's powerful relics that are so good for their point cost that you automatically take them.

how much should a Big bosspole cost? Currently it's 20 pts. And it's auto include in the greentide. But than if you just take a character from Ghazzy detachment, it's not that great cause first of all, you're handicapping yourself with ghaz detachment rules that are worse than regular ork codex rules, secondly, it's still only ok in large squads and large squads are not really good. So, if you want it to be ok in non-greentide, it should cost like 10 pts. If you want it to not be auto-include in greentide it should cost like 30-40 pts.

How much should an Axe of Blind fury cost? It's only ever used on a khornelord. If you make it cheaper, it'd be op for a khornelord, if you make it more expensive, it's not going to be used cause running Khorne also limits your retinue options quite significantly and now that you don't have a good choppy axe for such modest cost, it might not even be worth it.

Do you get my point? It's not possible to balance some things without adding an extra layer of rules bloat in form of different point costs for different lists.

how much should a Big bosspole cost? Currently it's 20 pts. And it's auto include in the greentide

Why is it an Auto include? I've never used it.

Like so many things in 40k, the unique abilities of Relics can go from useless to busted very suddenly, and so points costs are a very challenging way to allow for them. However, I don't find there to be much of an issue right now. I see Relics as more of a "my opponent gets items unique to his force and will only show up on certain guys" rather than "there's only one of these items in the galaxy", despite the fluff being the other way. It also helps to think this way whenever you have two forces clashing that have the same relics.

Like anything else in the game, there is a lot of imbalance and stuff that doesn't make sense.

KDK codex, why would i want to take the Helmet that give ONE extra attack on a 6 to hit, instead of the Kinder surprise Axe or Goredrinker?

Why is an Anti-Psy Rune limited to ONE and if you don't take it, you can't take an Artifact Weapon...

Honestly sometimes i feel they should divide the relics/artifacts/systemes in 2 categories; offensive and defensive.

in each categories, there's sub-categories Major and Minor.

You can thus take 1 Offensive and 1 Defensive, but you can't take 2 Major relics no matter what, only 1 Major and 1 Minor.

Major items are the more powerfull versions and costs 30-45pts, while Minor are less powerfull and cost 10-20pts.

If uou take that armor/shield that gives EW and FnP, then you cannot take that weapon that does +2S AP2 ID on 6's, only the S+1 Ap3 +rage weapon.

Then on the other hand , there is allready so many shenanigans and don't bypass the language filter like this Reds8n
My point been that either a relic is a must have, or its laughably useless/or circumstantial..., and thats the problem.

 warhead01 wrote:

how much should a Big bosspole cost? Currently it's 20 pts. And it's auto include in the greentide

Why is it an Auto include? I've never used it.

Well, it's other the big bosspole or grotsnik. Otherwise you'll have to roll mob rule and RANDOMLY allocate wounds to your 100 boyz and roll fear tests. And Grotsnik is 65 pts over a painboy, big bosspole and a pk.

Ok, I can see the fear tests as an issue. the wounds don't matter to me. I take well over 100 boys in my green tide.
No one I play regularly has anything that causes fear. ..Do riptides cause fear?

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I love relics, although I wish they were all good instead of some of them being utterly unusable crap. They do add a bit of interest to characters and armies, though.

Take Dark Angels, for example. We get the awesome Mace of Redemption (which I use in almost all of my lists), the Shroud of Heroes (also awesome), and the Foe Smiter (good but not nearly as good as the first two). Then we get the Monster Slayer of Caliban (utter overcosted garbage), the Eye of the Unseen (more of the same), and the Lion's Roar (not so bad, but still not great). If all of the relics were appropriately costed, then maybe they'd be worth considering. As is, some of them are just too expensive to justify whatever meager benefit they bring.

This. Mace, shroud, and foe smiter are all appropriately priced compared to normal options. Mace and smiter add some damage output to an HQ, shroud gives a nice 10 point FNP to a character. In general some of the most reasonably costed relics in the game. The others though need work before anyone takes them. Either up the power or drop the cost of the rest, this can be said in general for the less useful relics. Making it possible to take multiple relics would make people more likely to take some stuff, like I'd consider using lion's roar, but nothing will make anyone take the Monster Slayer of Caliban, the 40 point AP3 sword.

Mace is bunk unless it's going against CSM, you're better off with a powerfist.

I haven't had the opportunity to use any of my SM relics yet.

If I wanted to make a tanky Captain I could take the Shield Eternal + Terminator Armor. That'll cost me 170 points, and i'd get a 2+/3++ eternal warrior, adamantium will lead-blocker. I could pay a few extra points and give him a Thunder Hammer, or Power Fist.

Then on the other hand, Celestine is in the mail and I should have her soon. She's a paltry 30 more points and is a damn juggernaut of tanking. So, while the relic I would even consider might be costed appropriately, there's pretty much no reason for me to use it right now.

Lots of times, the Relics cover ground where they address a weak point in the army, giving you a one-shot chance of plugging that hole. Problem is, everybody takes that "one".

And is it my imagination or there always **SIX** relics per book - if so, how has GW not yet moved this from a point cost to random roll?

In the end, IMNSHO Relics need to die like named characters.

Speaking to Blood Angels, we have some fairly cool, and points cost efficient Relics in the standard BA codex. I can't speak toward the new Death Company Relics in the Angel's Blade Supplement as yet as I've not used them, but some seem pretty good.

Probably my favorite, for personal reasons, is the Crown Angelic. It's usefulness is debatable but when it works, it works well, and is very reasonably priced at 2x Meltabombs points wise. (My old original 3rd edition Captain had a Death Mask at all times, so having one back in the list I can put on my updated Captain is awesome)

Other personal favorites are The Veritas Vitae, which costs the same as the Crown Angelic. It grants an additional Warlord Trait off of the Strategic Table in the BRB. Again, not stupendous but useful and reasonably priced. Typically this goes on a Librarian if I'm running one as my Warlord.

Alternatively, the Relic Librarian Force Stave called Gallian's Staff which, conveniently, costs the same as the above two relics also, is a great option on my Librarian if I opt to run it as a second HQ with a different Warlord. Convenient as it doesn't change the Librarian's overall point cost when switching between the staff and Veritas Vitae.

Lastly, the only other Relic I've run with any effect is the Valor's Edge power sword, at just one meltabomb's points more expensive than a standard Power Weapon, it's decent enough for the points. An AP:2 power sword, no other bonuses sadly, but for the points it's not a bad option. I find myself preferring to run a Relic Blade more often than not however, and eschewing the AP:2 for the bonus strength/getting wounds in. There's a Warlord trait that allows me to, if I roll it, Master Craft the Relic Blade for additional effectiveness. .

Beyond that there are other relics to use such as the Relic Jump Pack called The Angel's Wing, which is a fun option forcing anything firing at it with interceptor to Snap Shot and that also includes any squads said character with the relic is attached to. Lastly there's the Relic Plasma Pistol that doesn't have the Get's Hot! USR. While cool, this is just monstrously over priced. It costs the same as a Power Fist and generally speaking if I'm going to take a Plasma Pistol on an Independent Character I'm just going to take a regular plasma pistol and save the points over this thing. It's interesting, but I've honestly never heard of anyone running it, ever. Once again, I'd rather take a regular Plasma Pistol and hope for the master crafted weapon warlord trait, then make the standard pistol Master Crafted. At that point it's not only cheaper, it's more effective.

I've always felt underwhelmed by the Blood Angels relics list when compared to the Space Marine, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves relics. The Blood Angel's Relics are all neat and flavorful pieces of wargear (except for the Plasma Pistol, that offering just left me scratching my head) and the prices on the wargear by and large are not bad at all, with fully half of them costing just two meltabombs points wise. Still, nothing, and I mean nothing available comes close to something like the Burning Blade, or Shield Eternal, let alone the Gorgon's Chain.

Were I king for a day and given a chance to re-write the Relics List for the Blood Angels I would have included at least one more melee weapon option. Not sure what. A Relic Axe, a Relic two handed chainsword a-la Seth's, or perhaps a suit of relic artificer armor with some extra defensive bonuses (Eternal Warrior, something) instead of the Plasma Pistol offering we got.

Anyway, that's my take on Relics. Thanks for reading if you got this far, and take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

I like the relic wargear but I don't like the concept of a "Relic" just as I don't like the concept of "Special Characters". In that I don't like there being this ONE guy or this ONE piece of wargear in the entire universe but he/she/it just so happens to be in this battle. Personally I would like to see some sort of rule set that allows you to give special rule sets to regular characters (say giving a Warboss the "Biker Boss" rule that gives warbikers as troops and the skilled rider special rule for X number of points). Instead for "Relics" just have it be special equipment that is reserved for only certain HQs and do away with some of the limitations on them. Maybe certain ones can be limited to 1 per army but others can have multiple taken.

I really like the idea of relics I just wish that, along with the rest of the game, they were thought out a bit better and were more appropriately costed. In some cases they should be improved and in others they should have reduced bonuses. To bring up Da Lucky Stikk again, there's no way that it's only worth 25 points (+1 WS for bearer and unit, re-rolls To Hit, To Wound and failed saving throws with a downside that has never occurred in my games) and it's been a rare battle indeed that I've not taken it on a Warboss since the release of the codex. Just like regular wargear, there should be very few or no auto-takes at all but as it stands every relic list has winners and losers.

 warhead01 wrote:
Ok, I can see the fear tests as an issue. the wounds don't matter to me. I take well over 100 boys in my green tide.
No one I play regularly has anything that causes fear. ..Do riptides cause fear?

whut you are running non fearless green tide formations.... why would you ever do that? There are so many ways to lose them all without the protection of being fearless.

It doesn't really matter. the warboss is LD 9. the tide gets +2 to the mob rule chart so it can't ever run off. Most of the things, like riptides try to stay as far away from the tide as it can get. Add in the possibility of rolling a one on the Ork warlord table and who cares, fearless any way. My Green tide has only been wiped out once. by tau through shooting and speed bumping and my own bad luck...and blood lust. One nob or pain boy off in the back with a boss pole. It just depends on what else I put in the tide. an extra warboss on warbike or KFF Meks over all just more boys for the win. It just needs to hold down the table and take a beating about the head, neck and shoulders. The only relic I see any value in is Da Finkin Kap.

 warhead01 wrote:
Ok, I can see the fear tests as an issue. the wounds don't matter to me. I take well over 100 boys in my green tide.
No one I play regularly has anything that causes fear. ..Do riptides cause fear?

Riptides are MC - all MC cause fear. All daemons - even brimstones with t1 can frighten orks. A lot of formations give free fear and lower ld significantly. Harleuins can. For example, every time you'll get shot with a death jester, you'll have to pass ld at -2.

And you didn't get my point about mob rule. It's RANDOM wound allocation. You'll first have to roll d100 to see which boy gets killed and than count up to it.

Indeed. I'd pay those 20 points just to avoid the random allocation on Mob Rule hits. My least favourite part of any game is random allocation