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This may be a controversial topic, and I'm probably going to get a lot of disagreement, but hear me out. I'll be talking about this from a competitive standpoint (as I mainly play in tournaments). In my mind if you're playing casually, then you can just not take these formations or run suboptimal versions if needed. Also, just to say I don't actually run either of these formations myself!

'Free' gear in these formations is heavily frowned upon by the internet community as it feels like it unbalances the game (i.e. if you calculated the points cost for each bit of gear it makes these formations cost considerably less than paying for the models and upgrades in CADs). I don't think it is as simple as people claim - and I think these formations are fairly good for the game on the whole (at least in the competitive setting). I am not disputing that these are powerful formations when built right, but I don't think the 'free' gear problem is actually a problem at all. Let me persuade you...

1. These formations get less-frequently-played units used more. Gladius and war convo both force players to choose a broad mix of units, including several that they would not ideally field. Not many people tend to go for assault marines, ruststalkers or chaplains, but because of the formations they see the table more frequently and can be actually quite strong while doing so. This is a good thing for the interest of the player and their opponent. It forces the player to think about how to use their least-favourite unit.

2. They aren't the nastiest thing out there. These lists don't auto-win every tournament or even necessarily do very well in incompetent hands. When there are wraithknights, scatbikes, imperial deathstars and riptide wings out there, any traditionally-built footslogging/transport based list needs all the help it can get. In particular, skitarii and cult mechanicus have limited options for competitive builds without allies. These formations allow you to take a mix of otherwise fairly uncompetitive units and run them with a high power level so they can compete.

3. The gear isn't actually free. As you buy these formations as a whole, the free gear can't ever be accessed on its own. It's better to see it as a general discount on the whole army. In a min-maxed Gladius for example, you pay around 1050 for the models (assuming some unit upgrades) and get 350pts worth of transports for 'free'. I find it's more helpful to see this cost distributed through the army. You get 10 transports, 10 squads and the two characters for around 1100 points. Nothing is truly free. You just get roughly 25% off the total depending on upgrades. You could see the marine squads as costing approx 50pts each base, the transports roughly 25pts for rhinos/drop pods and the characters around 70pts. The units are cheaper for being in the formation, but nothing is free. It's about the points invested and the utility of the units you get out.

4. Another cost of the gear is the lack of flexibility. This is another price you pay for taking gladius/war convo. You can't just spam out exactly what you like in an army. No ideal rhino-based marine list would pay for a chaplain (a slightly over-costed melee buffing character) out of choice. The tax units of the captain and chaplain tone it down a little. War Convo has even fewer flexibility options if you need to fit within 1850pts or so. If you could literally take nothing but the most powerful unit of your choice and get free gear included, that would be different.

5. Regular formations get 'free' rules too. Like it or not, formations have become a big part of 40k, and people have grown accustomed to the goodies they bring for free. For the most part they pay for this in limiting your flexibility (e.g. daemon incursion grants great bonuses but requires a LOT of units to unlock them). Free gear is just another one of these equally free buffs. It might be powerful or not depending on the formation.

6. Free gear doesn't necessarily make a for a strong formation. The space wolves 'ironwolves' formation allows you to take all vehicle upgrades for free and it isn't considered overly strong. Likewise in war convo, a lot of the shiny relics have interesting rules, but most aren't considered worth their points. When people say 'he has 500pts worth of stuff more than me' bear in mind that a decent amount of this might be junk that he wouldn't have paid for had it been half the price.

7. I enjoy playing against them. I really do. At the last GT I played in, I faced war convo twice with my guard horde army + its allies. Admittedly, I did lose both of these games, but one was extremely close, and I was playing guard - not usually considered top tier. I like the way that it felt like playing back in 5th edition - every individual unit could be destroyed and we both had to make tactical decisions as to our movement and target priorities. Compared to the riptides/wraithknights and deathstars that I just had to largely ignore, I just felt the game had so much more strategic depth. Incidentally I also placed higher than both war convos in the end

So, thoughts? Just thought I'd share my opinions as it tends to annoy me when I see people just randomly dismissing these formations. I see them as a great way to get more traditional 40K gameplay back from the unkillable super units we see these days.

I don't have as much experience against these lists as many people here(as I just returned from 4th edition), but they stink of BS right out the door.

In a competitive environment they are fine. They don't belong in friendly games.

No army should be so powerful it tables somebody by turn 3-4.

If you are tabling people in a friendly game, something is wrong with the balance.

GW only makes these formations to sell models anyways.

The tax you pay on them is completely worth it. And I don't see why it matters if it gets less used units back in the game. The solution is to balance those units, or to ENJOY a fluffy game, not blow the power levels out of the water to see them get played.

I haven't actually fought against a War Convocation yet, there aren't many in my area, and I am waiting to get a bit better (and fully painted) with my DE before I actively seek one out.

As for the gladius, its really not the free transports that break it, at least my experience (outflanking white scars to be specific) its really the amount of OBsec units that my opponent can bring. He has something like 12/15 Obsec units, which is insane, and considering my DE don't have any, its just an uphill battle. It doesn't matter if I can get anywhere I want if he already has an Obsec unit sitting there. Just my opinion however.

I do think there IS a valid point here in that the more restrictive a formation the better it's benifits should perhaps be. I think in this case the Gladius Battlle company shot a bit low. had it instead said "if a space marine player takes a full battle company, all units, at maximum size, may take a dedicated transport for free, we'd see a lot less complaining and a lot less abuse. as you'd only get transports on squads of size 10

A guy in my area runs a War Convocation but only takes like 150-200pts max of free upgrades (which isn't much considering that that number can go up to near 700 when pushed), so we don't mind him. He likes the formation more for the variety in models and other special rules rather than the free gear.

The Gladius can also be 'de-optimised' to be compatible with friendly lists - it just isn't generally done.

So yeah, I don't mind them either, so long as they aren't being abused.

"Full Company" Gladius / Lions Blade, Grav Cannons, and Librarius Conclave are the three corner stone that offered Space Marine a chance to stand against the competitive armies like Craftworld Eldar, Tau, Daemons, and Necrons. While the "free transport" is one of the bonus make taking Full Company worth it, when other "ridiculous change" in new codex (such as allowing every marine take a Heavy weapon / special weapons, or allow every one to add their number of shots / attacks) is just not viable (while we all know what ridiculous things Eldar have now).

I think similar things can be said for the Admech, especially consider how slow this army are generally is due to lack of transport and almost no one can move 12inch a turn. The free wargear upgrade is then become the reliable buff to them and make them competitive.

Space Wolf ones are a bit on the oddball side when it comes to free transports-free dedicated transport drop pods for everyone! Lets clutter the battlefield with turrets, maybe we can stop our opponents under sheer weight of rubbish in the way.

Alternatively you can get free stuff for vehicles, they just make it so you can only get transports and Landspeeders, then tack on extra rules to make running over your opponent's army more fun than shooting it.
Oh and just for more fun there's no option to take TWC.

Free wargear is a massive boon, and if you cannot see that I honestly do not know what to do.
Compare the Gladius to the Guardcurion, which comes in at roughly 1100 minimal, without any upgrades, and offers an extra order a turn and access to a new platoon only order. Now try and tell me that the free wargear formations are not powerful, and should be accepted in regular play.

Or perhaps you wouldnt mind facing my homebrewed Guard formation? Minimal of one CCS and two Veteran sections. For each veteran section you get a free Chimera, and if you have six Chimeras then you get two free Leman Russ. Oh, and all upgrades are half price.

Orkurion. No free stuff and comes with further penalties to their mob rule as well as the warlord being forced to challenge. Bonus - get to Waaagh every turn but orks can already take a smaller formation without the penalties to get it. Ghazzy''s default army wide fearless sync well with it but he can only be brought with council leaving orks in the same boat as AM: 1100+ pts to pay the tax before upgrades. Would be nice to have free stuff too but a 1500 pt game is a 1500 pt game not a 2000 pt game.

I'm sure it would be less of an issue if every codex had free stuff in it's structure.
I'll gladly take grot mobs equal in size to a boys mobs for free for every mob of boys. And free transports.

The orkurion is horrendously bad though

Ugh, I had forgotten about the Okcurion. I may complain about the Guardcurion, but at least ours doesnt nerf our army as well *facepalm*

Neophyte2012 wrote:
"Full Company" Gladius / Lions Blade, Grav Cannons, and Librarius Conclave are the three corner stone that offered Space Marine a chance to stand against the competitive armies like Craftworld Eldar, Tau, Daemons, and Necrons. While the "free transport" is one of the bonus make taking Full Company worth it, when other "ridiculous change" in new codex (such as allowing every marine take a Heavy weapon / special weapons, or allow every one to add their number of shots / attacks) is just not viable (while we all know what ridiculous things Eldar have now).

I think similar things can be said for the Admech, especially consider how slow this army are generally is due to lack of transport and almost no one can move 12inch a turn. The free wargear upgrade is then become the reliable buff to them and make them competitive.

But that's the basic problem, isn't it? Everyone's stupid rules are justified by needing to fight other armies' stupid rules. Free transports are justified by Riptide Wings, which are justified by scatterbikes, which are justified by Tzeentchstars, which are justified by the Decurion, which are justified by free transports. It never ends.

The generic Space Marine isn't very good at 14 ppm. Once you have a "free" razorback however, the marines are now [70-55=15/5] 3 ppm. Do you think that 3 ppm marines are fair and balanced?

Even if you "only" take a free drop pod and we include the melta/combi melta that is a common build, those marines work out to be [70+10+10-35=55/5] 11 ppm. A marine squad with a plasmagun, combi plas and a las/plas razor is [70+15+10-55+20=60/5] 12 ppm. Is that what it takes for tacticals to become competative against scouts? Is that what it take for marines to become competative against the other "big 4" races?

Another take is that, at minimum, every single tac and dev squad you take gets a free grav cannon. Every. Single. One. put in those terms, do you think it's fair to hand out 8+ free grav cannons?

 master of ordinance wrote:
Free wargear is a massive boon, and if you cannot see that I honestly do not know what to do.
Compare the Gladius to the Guardcurion, which comes in at roughly 1100 minimal, without any upgrades, and offers an extra order a turn and access to a new platoon only order. Now try and tell me that the free wargear formations are not powerful, and should be accepted in regular play.

Or perhaps you wouldnt mind facing my homebrewed Guard formation? Minimal of one CCS and two Veteran sections. For each veteran section you get a free Chimera, and if you have six Chimeras then you get two free Leman Russ. Oh, and all upgrades are half price.

i agree. To think that playing with 350-700 points more than your opponent is not a ridiculous advantage is crazy talk. If it was not a massive tactical advantage, the OP would not see them in the many tournaments he claims to play in, yet both warcon and gladius are everywhere in atournament play.

Cant wait for the next headline, "wraithknight is to many points" discuss.

The problem is the design philosophy. Free stuff only makes sense if something was fundamentally over-costed before.

Its therefore pretty stupid to release these formations in the same book that costs up the models. Either you are giving a boost that isn't needed or you are saying everything is overcosted without these freebies.

If someone looked at say Dark Eldar and went "no one takes Wyches, Hellions or Wracks" maybe they could release a new formation that gives them upgrades for free to try and attract players into using them. The current system though isn't good for the game.

OK let me clarify a few things.

Firstly, I wasn't trying to say that these aren't extremely strong formations. They are beyond the normal power curve for 40k, and generally belong in competitive games, not casual ones (unless you take pains to de-optimise them). In my mind, if you're playing a casual game then you should try and ensure the armies are balanced before you play. It's pretty obvious that gladius/war con aren't going to have a balanced game when matched with fluffy dark eldar/tyranids for example. The strong rules could be balanced in two ways - either make the gladius/war convo worse (less flexibility, pay points for formation, remove obsec etc.) or you could make the weaker models/formations in 40k stronger (e.g. guardcurion gains obsec, orkurion gets army-wide stubborn or something) until balance is restored a little.

What I was trying to say is that I find these lists more fun to play against than the other strongest armies around at the moment. I think it's a plus for 40K when the humble tac marine or infantry squad has a place in the strongest lists even if it's via some slightly contrived mechanics. I also wanted to say that the mechanic in itself isn't fundamentally flawed, and can be applied very appropriately e.g. that ironwolves formation that I've never seen played.

In a competitive environment they are fine. They don't belong in friendly games.

Agreed - by their nature, friendly games should be aiming to have some sort of balance. Otherwise they're not particularly friendly.

GW only makes these formations to sell models anyways.

True again, but basically everything they do is to try and push more models. Formations are particularly effective, especially the slightly restrictive ones (e.g. necron decurion pushed cron players to pick up tomb blades)

, not blow the power levels out of the water to see them get played.

I think that ship has already sailed to a greater or lesser degree

He has something like 12/15 Obsec units, which is insane, and considering my DE don't have any, its just an uphill battle

That is true, DE have received a weak codex and nothing since. I suspect they get their own meta formation to even things out a little before very long...

So yeah, I don't mind them either, so long as they aren't being abused.

I think few people do tbh, and I reckon they can be fine for casual games if the player doesn't min max to exploit them.

Free wargear is a massive boon, and if you cannot see that I honestly do not know what to do.

Again, I didn't say they're not strong formations.

Compare the Gladius to the Guardcurion

I was also disappointed that the guardcurion is unnecessarily restrictive and comes with few real benefits and loss of obsec. It's clearly not a equivalent formation. There are many formations that are worse than the 'free gear' ones and several that offer similar power - necron decurion, skyhammer, riptide wing, optimised stealth cadre, incursion, and many more coming out all the time.

my homebrewed Guard formation with free stuff

Yes, I could make up powerful formations too - you've managed to devise one that gives far more free gear than the gladius. I would not mind playing against a guard formation that had access to thesame proportion of 'free' gear as its formation bonus though. Most people would agree pure imperial guard armies need some help.

Orkurion. No free stuff and comes with further penalties

Yeah, the orkurion is pretty awful. Again, orks really needed a boost, and I'm disappointed GW didn't take the opportunity to give it to them.

Free transports are justified by Riptide Wings, which are justified by scatterbikes, which are justified by Tzeentchstars, which are justified by the Decurion, which are justified by free transports.

Unfortunately, yes. A lot of armies now have access to something extremely powerful and new rules have to compete with the best. I think GW will always try to gradually ramp up the power of their newest releases to sell them better, and the game will never achieve any true balance. They're not great at writing rules though, and some stuff is accidentally too weak (e.g. scarab occult terminators) and some stuff is far too strong (hello wraithknight and the necron decurion which set a new standard of strong lists).

Another take is that, at minimum, every single tac and dev squad you take gets a free grav cannon. Every. Single. One. put in those terms, do you think it's fair to hand out 8+ free grav cannons?

I think it's far more helpful to look at the squad/formation as a whole - assuming a razorback with las/plas and a grav cannon on the tacs (as an example), the proportion paid for the razorback is about 45pts and the proportion for the tacs (and their grav cannon) is about 55pts. It's not really about points cost though, it's about the utility you gain. Las/plas razorbacks are quite expensive for what they do, where grav cannons are considered pretty cheap for their ability to down terminators + riptides.Splitting the points due to their utility, I'd estimate the razorbacks in the gladius cost around 30pts and the grav-tacs are 70pts ish. Bear in mind these are all my biased estimates haha

the many tournaments he claims to play in

I don't get to play that often actually as I have no local club. That's why I tend to make more excursions to tourneys to get a few fun games in in a day.

warcon and gladius are everywhere in atournament play.

Maybe they might make up around 10-20% of the lists? I don't have stats to back that up though. All tournament lists are going to be built around something - whether it's a formation or a good unit or some good combos.

"no one takes Wyches, Hellions or Wracks" maybe they could release a new formation that gives them upgrades for free to try and attract players into using them.

This is exactly what formations should be doing. Riptide wing is the epitome of a terrible formation as it heavily rewards spam of a strong unit that people wanted to take anyway.

Taken in and of themselves, the core units of a Space Marine company are overcosted - horrendously so in the tournament meta. I've been playing since 3rd ed, and before the Gladius detachment, I don't think there was ever a time when taking an army largely comprised of Tac, Assault, and Devastator squads was a winning strategy.

Even with the Gladius detachment, Marines aren't breaking the tournament meta. Which may give you some perspective on how undercosted the common tournament builds are.

Well both lists regularly win or end up high in the big tournaments. Calling things cheese isn't that helpful, but they sure are high end of the power curve and in my opinion totally unfit for low power casual games.

 DoomMouse wrote:

. In particular, skitarii and cult mechanicus have limited options for competitive builds without allies. These formations allow you to take a mix of otherwise fairly uncompetitive units and run them with a high power level so they can compete.

*Record scratch* Now you're probably wondering how I got here....

Stating they have limited options for competitive builds without allies does not excuse saving approx. 300-500 points in an 1850 - 2k point range....which can then be spent on those very allies they are supposedly dependant on. Stating they have a weakness, which they can then conveniently ignore due to the free points they're getting in upgrades doesn't really help the case. It's like saying 'Don't worry! This thing is vulnerable to fire!' as you fight it 200 feet beneath the surface of the ocean.

3. The gear isn't actually free. As you buy these formations as a whole, the free gear can't ever be accessed on its own. It's better to see it as a general discount on the whole army. In a min-maxed Gladius for example, you pay around 1050 for the models (assuming some unit upgrades) and get 350pts worth of transports for 'free'. I find it's more helpful to see this cost distributed through the army. You get 10 transports, 10 squads and the two characters for around 1100 points. Nothing is truly free. You just get roughly 25% off the total depending on upgrades. You could see the marine squads as costing approx 50pts each base, the transports roughly 25pts for rhinos/drop pods and the characters around 70pts. The units are cheaper for being in the formation, but nothing is free. It's about the points invested and the utility of the units you get out.

Um, strange definition of free you have there. Because, you see, by purchasing the formation you get the gear for free...as opposed to another person who say, builds a similar list not using the formation and has to pay for the upgrades. The very fact you are not paying for it in the slightest is what makes it free. The argument of 'But you have to buy these units to get it!' doesn't really hold when people are min-maxing the required units to get the freebies in the first place. Now, if the Gladius or Convocation forced you to buy max strength squads to get the freebies it would be a completely different kettle of fish....but that's not the case.

Likewise, if the freebies were the ONLY benefits the respective detachment or formation was giving them then it would be different. But that's not the case. The Convocation gives units which otherwise don't have Canticles them and removes Gets Hot from weapons that have it. The Gladius gives additional uses of the Doctrines and the Demi-Companies grant ObSec to the units involved. You're not just talking 350 or so points of free vehicles. You're talking 350 points of free ObSec vehicles on top of other existing units that also have ObSec.

4. Another cost of the gear is the lack of flexibility. This is another price you pay for taking gladius/war convo. You can't just spam out exactly what you like in an army. No ideal rhino-based marine list would pay for a chaplain (a slightly over-costed melee buffing character) out of choice. The tax units of the captain and chaplain tone it down a little. War Convo has even fewer flexibility options if you need to fit within 1850pts or so. If you could literally take nothing but the most powerful unit of your choice and get free gear included, that would be different.

Lack of Flexibility? What? Both armies involved have access to what is probably one of the best weapon types in the game outside of D and both formations give plenty of ability to spam the everliving crap out of them. When you have one of the best all round weapons in the game flexibility is a non-issue. When your otherwise expensive upgrades allow you to counter its only 'weak point' you really aren't sacrificing much. Do you even understand how potent giving an Imperial Knight free weapon upgrades actually is?

5. Regular formations get 'free' rules too. Like it or not, formations have become a big part of 40k, and people have grown accustomed to the goodies they bring for free. For the most part they pay for this in limiting your flexibility (e.g. daemon incursion grants great bonuses but requires a LOT of units to unlock them). Free gear is just another one of these equally free buffs. It might be powerful or not depending on the formation.

However the formations that grant free wargear upgrades or free units have these free rules as well. Saying that Army A is balanced against Army B because it gets X and Y doesn't work when Army B is getting X, Y AND Z. And at that point, you're comparing special rules and trying to point those up. How valuable would you say ATSKNF is? How would you rate it compared to VotLW? What about the Doctrines? How do you compare that to the Boons of Chaos? How do you compare a Gladius with 2 Demi-Companies running say, Iron Hands Chapter Tactics to a Death Guard Vectorium with 2 Chaos Warbands?

Functionally the Warband and Demi-Company have similar layouts and require similar numbers of units. So 2 of each is comparable. It'd work out to, at a minimum....

Double Demi

1 Captain
1 Chaplain
6 Tactical Squads
2 Assault or Bike squads
2 Dev or Centurion squads

10 free transports.

Double Warband

2 Chaos Lords
4 Chaos Marine squads
2 Chosen, Terminator or possessed squads
2 Raptor, Warp Talon or Bike squads
2 Havoc squads or Helbrutes.

No free transports (but oh boy, we get to roll twice on the boon table when we get to roll on it.)

Straight off we're required to take the same amount of units as a minimum. However, one of these can take, if you wanted to up to 10 free Rhinos, Razorbacks or Drop Pods. The other simply gets to roll twice on a Chaos Boon table and choose either/or, that is wholly dependant on one of our characters killing one of yours. If we don't kill a single character that 'free rule' does nothing. Can you say 10 free transports will do nothing?

But wait, you also get to trigger the Tactical Doctrine as well! Rerolling 1s to hit for shooting and assault for a turn or all to hit if it happens to be a Tactical Squad.

Now make the same comparison to the Guard base formation or the Ork base formation in their decurions. Hell, compare it to the Eldar. Tell me at what point does 350+ points worth of free ObSec vehicles become outweighed by their base formation's special rules when you're ALSO getting similarly potent special rules?

Compare that to armies that don't even get a Decurion with such perks or formations? Tell me how 'free points' is fair? If I want to play you in a 1500 point game I bring 1500 points of models. Not 1850 points of models.

6. Free gear doesn't necessarily make a for a strong formation. The space wolves 'ironwolves' formation allows you to take all vehicle upgrades for free and it isn't considered overly strong. Likewise in war convo, a lot of the shiny relics have interesting rules, but most aren't considered worth their points. When people say 'he has 500pts worth of stuff more than me' bear in mind that a decent amount of this might be junk that he wouldn't have paid for had it been half the price.

The Ironwolves formation doesn't negate the base cost of the vehicles nor does it grant ObSec on a large scale. Furthermore, it doesn't include the SW breadwinner units (Wulfen or TWC). The Demi-Company allows for bikes and centurions. Furthermore, SW don't get access to grav weapons - Codex SM do. Ironwolves has free points...but its structure is terrible for utilising them and to be fair, SW don't really depend on their vehicles to that extent. But SM with MSU? That's always been their bread and butter from the moment Combat Squads became a thing.

The War Convo gives access to mass grav spam. It grants units that otherwise wouldn't benefit from the Canticles of the Omnissiah the benefits and in doing so makes the Canticles even stronger by increasing the number of units involved. Getting free upgrades to all units involved is one hell of a bonus. The relics aren't worth their points, sure - until they cost no points. Hell, if I could take the CSM relics for free I would be kitting those things out to characters like candy.

the gladius was still in an early stage of "decurion development" I think the fact that we've not seen new ones granted free stuff suggests it's not gonna be a thing an d GW has learned.

my gut feeling is that the designer assumed people would be taking ten man squads, and it's be more a "apoclypse/l;arge scale game" thing. and that we'd not see the 5 man squad MSU BS people are using to cheese with, as I said, if we're talking ten man squads the battle company is a lot less potent.

Jup this could be the reason for those recent If you max out this detachment you get these additional bonuses type of detachments.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Jup this could be the reason for those recent If you max out this detachment you get these additional bonuses type of detachments.

that's exactly my gut feeling. if GW publishes an update or errata to the Gladius I'd like to see the free vehicles changed to "Any unit from the Battle company, with a maximum number of models, May take a Free Rhino or Drop pod as a dedicated transport"

thus it suddenly means that you only get the free transports on 10 man tac squads (well or devestator squads if you are willing to run ten man devestator squads)

BrianDavion wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Jup this could be the reason for those recent If you max out this detachment you get these additional bonuses type of detachments.

that's exactly my gut feeling. if GW publishes an update or errata to the Gladius I'd like to see the free vehicles changed to "Any unit from the Battle company, with a maximum number of models, May take a Free Rhino or Drop pod as a dedicated transport"

thus it suddenly means that you only get the free transports on 10 man tac squads (well or devestator squads if you are willing to run ten man devestator squads)

More likely a free Razorback or Drop Pod.
Razorbacks don't have Grav or Firing Points.

Don't think the comparison between Gladius and warbands is fair at all.
First, you never need to double up your warband. You can get the units you want because it's a more flexible formation.

In any case, free stuff in general isn't bad. The implementation is.
Had the Gladius for example was limited to free pods or rhinos, and no razors, it would be far less of an issue (after all, it DOES require a hell lot of tactical squads around. Who will ever pick 6 squads otherwise, especially with combat squads being a thing?)

BrianDavion wrote:
the gladius was still in an early stage of "decurion development" I think the fact that we've not seen new ones granted free stuff suggests it's not gonna be a thing an d GW has learned.

my gut feeling is that the designer assumed people would be taking ten man squads, and it's be more a "apoclypse/l;arge scale game" thing. and that we'd not see the 5 man squad MSU BS people are using to cheese with, as I said, if we're talking ten man squads the battle company is a lot less potent.

If I'd been the one designing the Gladius, I'd have made it possible to get the free transports by taking a single demi-company, but all that formation's compulsory squads would have to be bought to full 10-man strength. So, 50 Marines+auxiliaries as appropriate would get you free transports. That'd encourage Marine players to play thematically-appropriate lists, but they could still go MSU with the Combat Squads rule.

Generally speaking, GW has never had army construction requirements with any bite, so lists that are actually representative of the fighting forces of the factions in the game have historically never been a competitive strategy. The Gladius (and the Decurion and the War Convo) are the best efforts they've come up with thus far. I don't think it's a bad thing to be seeing large numbers of Tac, Dev, and Assault Marines in tournament lists. If anything, I'd like to see the concept extended to all the factions. I'd rather see lists with lots of Fire Warriors and free Devilfish than Riptide/Ghostkeel/Broadside/Stormsurge spam, or lists with lots of Guardians and Dire Avengers getting free (or discounted might be more appropriate) Wave Serpents than Wraithknight/Warp Spider/Windrider spam.

Well, Tau nearly got it right with the hunter cadre even though it allows a bit too much leeway in choice units, but once the riptide wing dropped, it just dominated tau lists so much its chocking the rest as there is no excuse NOT to take it-its an absolutely bonkers formation consisting from 1 unit that is a rather good unit even with its weaker setup (and the formation buffs that setup the most!), and the maxed out setup is cheesy.

The gladius is one of the better formations in the sense its so rigid and restrictive that had it NOT been so freakishly overpowering due to free razros, it would be the perfect core formation for the game to balance around-lots of troops, some specialized units, and a pair of HQs to lead your force.


Honestly GW, how do you manage to over and over again be SO CLOSE to perfection, then just make a mistake so little it can be fixed in less than a sentence, yet big enough to completely ruin all the good work?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Don't think the comparison between Gladius and warbands is fair at all.
First, you never need to double up your warband. You can get the units you want because it's a more flexible formation.

In any case, free stuff in general isn't bad. The implementation is.
Had the Gladius for example was limited to free pods or rhinos, and no razors, it would be far less of an issue (after all, it DOES require a hell lot of tactical squads around. Who will ever pick 6 squads otherwise, especially with combat squads being a thing?)

The moment you put free transports on the table I'd take 6 5 man tac squads to get 6 free obsec transports in a heartbeat over 3 10 man squads.

I think someone nailed it earlier on.

If the gladius, war convocation etc gave you free upgrades/transports for taking maximum sized squads it would be far less of an issue. Still an annoyance to some but less so because the cost to get the freebies would weigh them down and force a specific style.

Tyel wrote:
The problem is the design philosophy. Free stuff only makes sense if something was fundamentally over-costed before.

30 point Plasma Calivers. 10 point Conversion Fields on T3 models with 2W and a 6+ FNP. 25 point Transauranic Arquebi for what is effectively a Sniper Rifle with Armourbane. 20 point Power Maces with Haywire.

So yeah. War Convocation definitely can get a lot of "free stuff", but most of that is coming from it already being wildly overpointed or you've just been throwing random crap onto the Skitarii side of things. The hallmark of a successful War Convocation is that you've done it in such a way that you have enough points "free" to create something big as a secondary Detachment for the Cult Mechanicus bits, boosting up the Canticles count for everything.


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 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Don't think the comparison between Gladius and warbands is fair at all.
First, you never need to double up your warband. You can get the units you want because it's a more flexible formation.

In any case, free stuff in general isn't bad. The implementation is.
Had the Gladius for example was limited to free pods or rhinos, and no razors, it would be far less of an issue (after all, it DOES require a hell lot of tactical squads around. Who will ever pick 6 squads otherwise, especially with combat squads being a thing?)

The moment you put free transports on the table I'd take 6 5 man tac squads to get 6 free obsec transports in a heartbeat over 3 10 man squads.

I think someone nailed it earlier on.

If the gladius, war convocation etc gave you free upgrades/transports for taking maximum sized squads it would be far less of an issue. Still an annoyance to some but less so because the cost to get the freebies would weigh them down and force a specific style.

Worth noting that War Convocation rarely will not have max size squads, as max size squads for Skitarii are the only way to get triple from their Special Weapons.

Gladius should have had more of a restriction than just "Chaplain and Captain". Should have mandated a Command Squad for each and full sized Tactical Squads.

True, but not accurate.

See, the value of getting free stuff is weight against the value of said stuff to begin with.
ARE free rhinos/pots (NOT RAZORS) worth the lack of flexibility of combat squads for your 30 tactical marines?

Yea, it kina is.
But who took 3 full squads of tactical marines without it? or 6 minimal squads?
Heck, how often you even saw three minimal tactical squads?
TBH, in a CAD, most people would be reluctant to take ANY tacticals, and if at all it would be two minimal squads. (total 10 men) rather than 3 full, or six minimal (total 30 men) that they bring in the gladius.

Then you need to consider the opportunity cost involved.
Yea, you get a nice bonus, but it comes in the cost of other bonuses, like the CAD's flexibility, or another formation's benefits. (and yea, most formation benefits are not easy to price by models, but some are jaw-dropping powerful in how much better they make the models that are in them)

Case in point, had the gladius been limited to just rhinos and pods, I'm not so sure the free stuff it gives are enough to counterbalance the requirements and limitations it puts on your list compared to other formations and/or CADS.
Well, at least its not an easy choice. some players will go for the free rhinos and pods, others for the flexiilbty of a CAD, and some will go for other formations for the bonuses.
And the fact that there would be no clear right choice is the best thing you can do. it breeds versatility and encourages personal playstyles when you can't easily point out at one thing and say "this is best"


The issue is not in the act of freebies, it at just how good the freebies are. and razor freebies are just a lot more meaningful than rhinos or pods, that's why everyone take razors.