Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Third_Age_of_Baggz**

Piston Honda wrote:
So who is the distributor for dust now since BF is out of the loop?

Was there any any indication of this conundrum happened at FFG?

I have it on very good authority that a U.S. Distributor is being shopped for future products. Also, with the exception of what is being sold on the Dust website, what's left of both FFG and Battlefront stock has been consolidated and being sold as we speak...now I won't say who's selling, but it's a certain webstore that's awesome...and discounted....and awesome. When it's gone...the world supply is gone! (Pre-Babylon)

On another note, I believe there are still some copies of Operation Babylon still for sale if anyone is interested.

**lord_blackfang**

I'm guessing that's the same store that's still trying to unload the last of AT-43 and Confrontation some 5 years later.

And which distributor would be flying rodent gak enough to touch this garbage after all that's happened?

**f2k**

mikhaila wrote:
YouKnowsIt wrote:
Shotgun wrote:

No.

Is it Paolo's fault? That is one possible interpretation. It appears that Dust and BF have come to can agreement on everything except the freebies that BF says that Paolo promised Dust would provide. I believe "BF" believes that it was going to be a 50/50 split on cost, and "Dust" wants BF to pay the entire cost.

Dust Studios apparantly were the ones who offered the 50/50 split to BF to make this all go away, but BF have been dragging their heels.

No, the 50/50 split on the free items was what paolo agreed to from the beginning. Who paid for each set of freebies alternated back and forth, and each party decided what they would 'give' at each level. Battlefront used additional product, since they don't make dust models.

The problem is two fold:
1) Mr. Yau now says that any talks with his Partner, Paolo, don't count. He wants BF to pay all of the cost of the freebies.
2) Not content to get paid for the cost of providing the goods BF would then give away, he wants his normal profit margin on the goods he wants BF to give away.

One really has to wonder how two international companies are stupid enough to do an oral-only agreement on a project like this. How can they be stupid enough to launch a Kickstarter without having a written agreement?

**YouKnowsIt**

mikhaila wrote:

No, the 50/50 split on the free items was what paolo agreed to from the beginning. Who paid for each set of freebies alternated back and forth, and each party decided what they would 'give' at each level. Battlefront used additional product, since they don't make dust models.

The problem is two fold:
1) Mr. Yau now says that any talks with his Partner, Paolo, don't count. He wants BF to pay all of the cost of the freebies.
2) Not content to get paid for the cost of providing the goods BF would then give away, he wants his normal profit margin on the goods he wants BF to give away.

On the Dust Tactics Facebook group some bits from e-mails have been posted showing that DS did offer a 50% discount to try and resolve this, which was rejected. And that Battlefront told them to start looking for a new distributer back in January, funny how they didn't mention that to backers.

**f2k**

YouKnowsIt wrote:
mikhaila wrote:

No, the 50/50 split on the free items was what paolo agreed to from the beginning. Who paid for each set of freebies alternated back and forth, and each party decided what they would 'give' at each level. Battlefront used additional product, since they don't make dust models.

The problem is two fold:
1) Mr. Yau now says that any talks with his Partner, Paolo, don't count. He wants BF to pay all of the cost of the freebies.
2) Not content to get paid for the cost of providing the goods BF would then give away, he wants his normal profit margin on the goods he wants BF to give away.

On the Dust Tactics Facebook group some bits from e-mails have been posted showing that DS did offer a 50% discount to try and resolve this, which was rejected. And that Battlefront told them to start looking for a new distributer back in January, funny how they didn't mention that to backers.

Why should they mention it?

As I see it, Battlefront has been doing the right thing, keeping it all tightly wrapped until a resolution had been found. Paolo, on the other hand, has been flinging mud on Facebook for months now, getting the backers all riled up. Not particularly professional if you ask me...

Now, they certainly should have been better at keeping the backers up to date with what was going on - and that goes for both sides. But that doesn't mean that they should air their dirty laundry.

**CaulynDarr**

plastictrees wrote:Nothing this messy with FFG as far as I'm aware.
Star Wars Tactics with equivalent quality miniatures to Dust would have been incredible though.

I'm assuming that BF had the option to buy out FFGs stock (which would have needed repackaging) and declined, which really shot them in the foot and added to the sea of discounted DUST product.

BF claims that Paolo neglected to mention the particulars of the arrangement with FFG when they parted ways. The financial hole that the Kickstarter was supposed to dig both companies out of was due to BF finding out from FFG that they now had a warehouse of product that they could not legally sell. It also left them unable to sell starters or rulebooks for the game. This is what led to the period when all news about Dust went dark for 6-8 months while BF and DS wrote rules and built starter sets that they could sell.

YouKnowsIt wrote:
mikhaila wrote:

No, the 50/50 split on the free items was what paolo agreed to from the beginning. Who paid for each set of freebies alternated back and forth, and each party decided what they would 'give' at each level. Battlefront used additional product, since they don't make dust models.

The problem is two fold:
1) Mr. Yau now says that any talks with his Partner, Paolo, don't count. He wants BF to pay all of the cost of the freebies.
2) Not content to get paid for the cost of providing the goods BF would then give away, he wants his normal profit margin on the goods he wants BF to give away.

On the Dust Tactics Facebook group some bits from e-mails have been posted showing that DS did offer a 50% discount to try and resolve this, which was rejected. And that Battlefront told them to start looking for a new distributer back in January, funny how they didn't mention that to backers.

50% of a 100% of items they we're initially assured that they wouldn't have to pay for.

**em_en_oh_pee**

Tragic. So, does Paolo own the Warfare rules? What happens to those? I would love to see them become an open ruleset or applied to a better supported game (which is basically any game at this point).

**TheWaspinator**

It sounds like those rules might get trapped in copyright hell.

**warboss**

TheWaspinator wrote:
It sounds like those rules might get trapped in copyright hell.

Eh, they'll just come out with another. It seems from the outside looking in that dust changes rules more often than a fashionista changes clothing styles.

**f2k**

TheWaspinator wrote:
It sounds like those rules might get trapped in copyright hell.

Which presumably is why Paolo is already working on Dust Tactics v3 with Dust Battlefield given over to the fans.

**Theophony**

Well when the Dust settles

, the new game will come out called Ashes Remain, cause that's all that will be left. Paolo and company will just bring out a different game of cheesecake heroines and intelligent gorillas which will last for 5 or so years and fall into obscurity again.

**draugadan**

em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Tragic. So, does Paolo own the Warfare rules? What happens to those? I would love to see them become an open ruleset or applied to a better supported game (which is basically any game at this point).

The warfare rules have been licensed to a fan to continue producing warfare rules . I have no idea at this point what that means to the future of warfare. To be honest I think that warfare is dead possibly tactics also.

**CaulynDarr**

Surprisingly, CMON is going to be supporting Dust Studios and Gencon.

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/paolo-parente-and-dust-studio-at-cmon-booth-for-gen-con/

Wonder if BF is going to drop that legal hammer they were alluding to.

**BrookM**

Wonder if CMoN can keep Paolo under control if this is what I think it is.

**endtransmission**

Despite all the wrong-ness of the business dealings, the convention model looks really nice

In fact, there are a heck of a lot of new kits being previewed over on their facebook page, including DUST Australia, Italian troops, Fallschirmjäger, more mercs, some new, smaller tanks and light artillery pieces... as well as the switch to hard plastic sprues.

**YouKnowsIt**

draugadan wrote:
em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Tragic. So, does Paolo own the Warfare rules? What happens to those? I would love to see them become an open ruleset or applied to a better supported game (which is basically any game at this point).

The warfare rules have been licensed to a fan to continue producing warfare rules . I have no idea at this point what that means to the future of warfare. To be honest I think that warfare is dead possibly tactics also.

He released the Warfare cards for the new upcoming starter sets already over on Facebook, so the future looks reasonably promising.

**em_en_oh_pee**

YouKnowsIt wrote:
draugadan wrote:
em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Tragic. So, does Paolo own the Warfare rules? What happens to those? I would love to see them become an open ruleset or applied to a better supported game (which is basically any game at this point).

The warfare rules have been licensed to a fan to continue producing warfare rules . I have no idea at this point what that means to the future of warfare. To be honest I think that warfare is dead possibly tactics also.

He released the Warfare cards for the new upcoming starter sets already over on Facebook, so the future looks reasonably promising.

Yea... except it is a fan. And one in a notoriously toxic community, no less. Not sure how "promising" it looks that a fan is in charge of rules and not a company that can you know... support the game. I get that the models are coming out, but rules supplements, real printed cards, and stuff. I dunno, I was calling the end of Dust Warfare years ago now, when Paolo pulled the plug on FFG and went cuddling up to BF. That, to me, was the deathknell. Made only worse by the fact Paolo hated Warfare, thus dooming it when BF took over too (and BF didn't seem to care either, as clearly demonstrated by them).

And now these are going to be unassembled models? Or is that a convention thing? Half the selling point was the open-and-play concept, like the vastly more popular X-Wing. Now without that, why would people bother? I mean, having to sift through potentially what... 4 versions of Tactics, Battlefield and now two versions of Warfare? Yikes.

And also, on Facebook? Really? Can't be hassled to start a website for Dust Warfare? I mean... I know I had a website for it without even being handed the rules like that. Might look a lot better if they had a real website. Just sayin'.

**CaulynDarr**

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Yea... except it is a fan. And one in a notoriously toxic community, no less. Not sure how "promising" it looks that a fan is in charge of rules and not a company that can you know... support the game. I get that the models are coming out, but rules supplements, real printed cards, and stuff. I dunno, I was calling the end of Dust Warfare years ago now, when Paolo pulled the plug on FFG and went cuddling up to BF. That, to me, was the deathknell. Made only worse by the fact Paolo hated Warfare, thus dooming it when BF took over too (and BF didn't seem to care either, as clearly demonstrated by them).

And now these are going to be unassembled models? Or is that a convention thing? Half the selling point was the open-and-play concept, like the vastly more popular X-Wing. Now without that, why would people bother? I mean, having to sift through potentially what... 4 versions of Tactics, Battlefield and now two versions of Warfare? Yikes.

And also, on Facebook? Really? Can't be hassled to start a website for Dust Warfare? I mean... I know I had a website for it without even being handed the rules like that. Might look a lot better if they had a real website. Just sayin'.

I think the unassembled kits are so they can end run around FFG and BF's continued IP and Distribution locks-outs.

**Piston Honda**

So Paolo was making agreements on behalf of Dust Studios which he had no authority to do so?

**f2k**

Piston Honda wrote:
So Paolo was making agreements on behalf of Dust Studios which he had no authority to do so?

Either that, or Dust Studios decided that they no longer wanted to honour the oral agreements they made.

**katfude**

Even with all this gak, I'd still have bought a starter set at gen con if they didn't only have premium kits available. Per battlefront's advice, no product in hand equals no purchase.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

I'm sure there will be mucho Dust stuff in the bargain bins of the big discounters at Gencon

**katfude**

"Dust starter kit for 120 bucks? Fantasy flight has them at their booth for 10 bucks..."

**warboss**

katfude wrote:
"Dust starter kit for 120 bucks? Fantasy flight has them at their booth for 10 bucks..."

FWIW, at the top of this page is a rumor that FFG sold their remaining stock back to DS. I can't verify that myself but figured I'd point that out.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

warboss wrote:
katfude wrote:
"Dust starter kit for 120 bucks? Fantasy flight has them at their booth for 10 bucks..."

FWIW, at the top of this page is a rumor that FFG sold their remaining stock back to DS. I can't verify that myself but figured I'd point that out.

FFG still have a variety of Dust stuff in stock at their webstore (random example http://store.fantasyflightgames.com/productdetails.cfm?SKU=DTP004) so if they've sold stuff to DS it's not all of it

**cincydooley**

BrookM wrote:
Wonder if CMoN can keep Paolo under control if this is what I think it is.

.

They're just giving him some space at the booth. I dont believe there's any kind of partnership there for DuSt at this point.

**Shotgun**

I wasn't at Gencon and the people I knew that were there didn't see anything. Were they there? Was there any kind of announcement?

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

the latest situation is

Reiterating the free upgrade situation

As well as many of you asking about the timeline and payment history, you have also asked us to clarify the entire free upgrades issue, so here it is.

To reiterate, this is the only disagreement we have had with Dust Studio over the Kickstarter campaign.

During the Kickstarter project, John-Paul and Paolo talked daily about the plan and added incentives as the project grew based on a simple idea that both companies would contribute equal value items to the list.

This means that if Battlefront added an item such as a rulebook, the $25 value would then be matched against something like the Sisters of Battle unit, also worth $25. This was never going to be an exact science as the demand for each item would vary, but the split between us was expected to be 50-50, and ended up being very close to that at the end.

Battlefront was responsible for giving away the following incentives:

•V2 Tactics Rulebook
•Operation Babylon Campaign Set
•Operation Achilles Campaign Set (one per backer over $100)
•Warfare US Cards
•Warfare Axis Cards
•Warfare SSU Cards
•Tactics US Cards
•Tactics Axis Cards
•Tactics SSU Cards
•US Tokens
•Axis Tokens
•SSU Tokens
•Babylon Tokens
•US Templates
•Axis Templates
•SSU Templates
•Abandoned Well

Dust Studio was responsible for giving away the following incentives:
•US Medium Walker (Tropical Pounder)
•Axis Medium Walker (Jagdleopold)
•SSU Medium Walker (Tropical Mikhail)
•US Medium Walker (Tropical Petard) Turret
•Axis Medium Walker (Loth) Arms
•SSU Medium Walker (Natasha) Arms
•US Heroes x3 (Machete Mack, Crazy Jimmy, Alternate Machete Mack)
•Axis Heroes x3 (Tina and Hyäne, Rolf Sammt, Alternate Angela)
•SSU Heroes x3 (Red Banner, Iron Joe, Alternate Red Yana)
•US Decals
•Axis Decals
•SSU Decals
•Babylon Dice
•Sisters of Demolition (one per backer over $150)

As you can see from our previous post about the financial summary, there has never been, nor will ever be money from the Kickstarter to pay for any of the free upgrades from either Battlefront or Dust Studio.

There have been a lot of public statements from Dust Studio about the offers of a 50% discount off their free upgrade items. But we have already contributed our share of the incentives (and shipped the majority already with the balance due with Wave 2), and Dust Studio is simply asking us to give them money for product for which no revenue has ever been collected or set aside. Dust Studio wants us to actually pay for 75% of the free items by asking us to pay for half of their stock as well as all of ours, from revenue that does not exist.

which seems to suggest that nobody's getting anything on the list?

probably

**Aeneades**

They list looks very uneven to me. Surely it's Dust Studies that writes the contents of that $25 rule book and Battlefront would just be paying the printing cost?

Which would mean for the example they provided -

This means that if Battlefront added an item such as a rulebook, the $25 value would then be matched against something like the Sisters of Battle unit, also worth $25. This was never going to be an exact science as the demand for each item would vary, but the split between us was expected to be 50-50, and ended up being very close to that at the end.

Dust Studies -
Writing the rules for the rulebook
Testing the rules for the rulebook
Sculpting every model in the Sisters of Battle unit
Manufactoring every model in the Sisters of Battle unit
Shipping the Sisters of Battle from china to the US

Battlefront -
Printing the rulebook
Shipping the rulebook from a us factory to the us warehouse

Am I missing something cost wise here that makes it a 50/50 split?

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

well that's battlefronts version of events... I'm sure Dust would have a different one in terms of 'value'

but it does illustrate the stuff that's in dispute and thus is unlikely ever to get shipped to backers