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 Tonberry7 wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Don't be so quick to assume they wouldn't do something pointless like that. Blood Angels got a similar deal with a detachment and formation conferring the same bonus with no stacking whatsoever.

Do they have to roll to see if they get those bonuses? If not then it's a different situation altogether.

Orks also got decurion bonuses that duplicate the core formation bonuses. So, it's not that obvious. It might just be a rule that doesn't work yet. There might be some more cultist formations that can be added later on though.

I assume it'll work like a reroll then, so there's a 75% chance of getting your Cultists back.

 koooaei wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Don't be so quick to assume they wouldn't do something pointless like that. Blood Angels got a similar deal with a detachment and formation conferring the same bonus with no stacking whatsoever.

Do they have to roll to see if they get those bonuses? If not then it's a different situation altogether.

Orks also got decurion bonuses that duplicate the core formation bonuses. So, it's not that obvious. It might just be a rule that doesn't work yet. There might be some more cultist formations that can be added later on though.

Hardly, that would mean reprinting the same decurion with more options. Unless they decide to cross pollinate formations, which wouldn't be the strangest thing they've done.

What makes it different in your mind? They seem like fairly similar situations to me. Their detachment and the core formation within the detachment give the same effect making it rather pointless to have on both and not letting them stack in any way.

I'm hoping they change their mind and make it more clear that you can at least get two tries for the respawn, but saying GW doesn't make a pointless rule like that for the detachment doesn't seem to be the case based on other similar examples.

Had my first game as death guard against guard. I managed to eek out a victory.

What i learned was that first off was that the power weapons aren't worth it on the unit champions, but If i have to take a power weapon on my unit champions its going to be an axe. I have a hard time trying to accept the ocost for a power axe, let alone a fist. When my chaos lords used them they did no damage at all with the exception of a single dead tank. I can't justify 25 points on a one wound model that may not even get to swing, even with FNP. Plus i get an extra attack bonus with the axe, unlike if i would have taken a fist on the unit champions.

The raptor talon felt more like a suicide unit. Point them at what you want destroyed, and if they don't get annihilated from all the incoming fire when they've chewed up said target all the better. Havocs managed to draw fire from battlecannons. Aside from that they were meh.

All in all i do like the new rules, but i will make some changes for the future.

So what did the work that led you to victory?

The raptor talon did the majority of the work. Termies were stuck in reserve. The bikes did ok too.

So for my Night Lords bikers, what's the smart move? Just 3 man squads with 2 special weapons and maybe a power weapon on the champ? Or should I have more guys?

Personally I go with 5 but i run nurgle so your mileage may vary.

I'd run them at 3 man with 2 special guns (maby lightning claw) solo, and 5 man with 2 special guns (melta) and lightning claw as bodyhuards for a lord.

I would go for 2 special weapons and a combi weapon, if your bikes get into close combat they will most likely get shrecked unless you planned them to be close combat. i would go with 2 meltas and a combi melta

So what's the consensus on the most competitive legion? Death Guard? I've got some death guard I could build, but I'm kind of in the mood for an assault army (sadly)

Death Guard is probably the most competitive, but even the worst ones fulfill a cool niche, like the Word Bearers for a summoning list.

I don't think Word Bearers are bad, I agree they fill a specific role. Just that i don't think its an especially good one. Summoning Daemons is rather risky. Aside from they they are meh. They aren't terrible but they aren't great either.

pepsuber wrote:
I don't think Word Bearers are bad, I agree they fill a specific role. Just that i don't think its an especially good one. Summoning Daemons is rather risky. Aside from they they are meh. They aren't terrible but they aren't great either.

Aside from Daemon Summoning their basically just pre-Traitor Legion CSMs, so they're pretty bad in the scheme of things.

It's summon or bust.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

pepsuber wrote:
I don't think Word Bearers are bad, I agree they fill a specific role. Just that i don't think its an especially good one. Summoning Daemons is rather risky. Aside from they they are meh. They aren't terrible but they aren't great either.

Aside from Daemon Summoning their basically just pre-Traitor Legion CSMs, so they're pretty bad in the scheme of things.

It's summon or bust.

They have free VotLW and get Crusader in their detachment. Not all bad but definitely the worst off.

I would say Death Guard. But if you are hyper competitve the best build is without a doubt the Cabalstar.

Hmm, has anybody used berzerkers in a hounds of abaddon formation? They may not have built in axes, but they don't really need them tbh. 10 zerkers will reliably kill 5 termies, assuming they don't also have feel no pain that is. It's only barely a wound more than normal csm do, but the zerker champion is almost guaranteed to wound with all his attacks if you give him a claw and they're fearless so they wouldn't need an attached lord to attack high value targets.
Typically I avoid putting points into them, but it might not be a bad option when using that formation. A unit of five is too small to do anything against harder units, but ten could be useful.

The Berserker Marines are a tax. Take advantage of that free MoK on units that will use it better.

It is, but the question is whether it's less of a tax as a naked 5 man or as a 10 man with some gear on the champ? the 5 man version is cheaper but not much use, the 10 man could do some damage at least.

Just keep them at 5 dudes to try and charge something that might deep strike.

Id say it depends on your list. If you are starved for points like I am then you can only run 5 and keep them on a out of sight objective or something. If you have more leway of course 10 would be best. Forget the axes, they are a trap.

Played two 2k games with my WE against my friend's IG. Butcherhorde vs CAD I believe. He had some psykic powers, Pask, plenty of bodies in the way, a defense line, and like nine tanks. My list was a Maelstrom of Gore + three rhinos, three chaos lords on juggers with spawn escorts for two of them, and two deamon princes.

He was able to remove one threat per turn and slowed me down as much as he could, but turn one and two units starting slamming into units. With a little more strategy on my end I could have really laid the hurt on him. Basically the Deamon Prince and Glaive Lord started demolishing one side of his line, but the Burning Brand Lord and AoBF Lord got separated and the Brand lord got blown to bits. The Black Mace Deamon Prince also died to Pask turn one, but someone was going to die regardless. The Berzerkers had Power Axes and did some good work chopping down Guardsmen, but they were just Guardsmen. AoBF and Brand Lords had five spawn escorts each that took my friend way more shooting then he would have liked to deal with, including pie plates a plenty. My three Rhinos happily stayed on objectives getting me points for 35 points a piece. Red Rain and the +3 charge distance didn't help those games but they kept my friend sweating.

Overall I see this as the best way to run World Eaters so far: multiple huge threats. When I tried to MSU it didn't work well since the legion has no defensive ability beyond vanilla marines. The Warband could also work, you'd just be using Bikes and Termies as escort units instead of Spawn in order to get the most bang for your buck.

I was thinking about trying a horde style emperor's children army to maximize the value on icons of excess, but after doing the math 20 MOS Marines with icon of excess are more expensive than 20 MON marines with no icon and the later are more durable against most things :/ This isn't even going into the fact that 20 man squads is where the icon is most cost efficient and that MON marines are superior at every number of squad members.

I'm starting to think that mark of slaanesh is over costed at 2pts or Mark of Nurgle is undercoated especially with deathguard chapter tactics. (internally speaking considering how powerful other codexes are compared to ours)

MoN + Death Guard rules = number one Legion hands down. Adding tons of defense on top of being able to lower the defense of your opponent on top of being able to take some powerful weapons makes them crazy good. They're one of the few Legions that can MSU effectively.

I've seen a few people having trouble making EC lists due to the cost of them. Like WE, I feel like EC need to focus almost completely on offence and let defense be damned. You're going to lose models, there's no getting around that, so make every unit scary so the enemy can't make a good choice.

 andysonic1 wrote:
MoN + Death Guard rules = number one Legion hands down. Adding tons of defense on top of being able to lower the defense of your opponent on top of being able to take some powerful weapons makes them crazy good. They're one of the few Legions that can MSU effectively.

I've seen a few people having trouble making EC lists due to the cost of them. Like WE, I feel like EC need to focus almost completely on offence and let defense be damned. You're going to lose models, there's no getting around that, so make every unit scary so the enemy can't make a good choice.

I've been having allot of trouble with emperor's children, there Decurion being random also doesn't help, since you can't build a strategy around it.

The +1 initiative implies close combat but to get a close combat weapon (so you are decent) you either have to pay 2 pts making your basic marines 17pts each (unacceptably costly) or you have to ditch the bolter which makes them terrible on the turn you get out of the rhino. I've been thinking of using dreadclaws but they're 100pts each and are incredibly costly especially just to get marines into combat.

One thing that annoys me the most however is the lack of ap2 weapons that synergies with mark of slaanesh, nurgle doesn't care because they hit last anyway and can just take a power fist while khorne gets the axe of blind fury, even tzeentch gets an ap2 at initiative weapon. Would it have hurt to have given Emperor's children a phoenix spear artifact over one of the absolute useless ones like the endless grin :/ (The most useless artifact I have ever seen in the game)

Edit: I probably should chill out no need to start ranting, maybe I'll try taking a kakaphoni in my slaanesh daemon army to add some ranged firepower.

 andysonic1 wrote:
MoN + Death Guard rules = number one Legion hands down. Adding tons of defense on top of being able to lower the defense of your opponent on top of being able to take some powerful weapons makes them crazy good. They're one of the few Legions that can MSU effectively.

I've seen a few people having trouble making EC lists due to the cost of them. Like WE, I feel like EC need to focus almost completely on offence and let defense be damned. You're going to lose models, there's no getting around that, so make every unit scary so the enemy can't make a good choice.

So no icon and no noise blaster ?

EC and Noise marines... the Initiative 5 is a part of their defensive advantage; against most MEQs they swing first. I agree that the lack of a weapon to take advantage of that improved initiative is a problem. Their sonic weapons that ignore cover are indispensable against most enemies.

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
MoN + Death Guard rules = number one Legion hands down. Adding tons of defense on top of being able to lower the defense of your opponent on top of being able to take some powerful weapons makes them crazy good. They're one of the few Legions that can MSU effectively.

I've seen a few people having trouble making EC lists due to the cost of them. Like WE, I feel like EC need to focus almost completely on offence and let defense be damned. You're going to lose models, there's no getting around that, so make every unit scary so the enemy can't make a good choice.

So no icon and no noise blaster ?

I have no answers except keep experimenting. I don't play EC, I play WE, and it's taking me weeks to figure out what works and what doesn't with my own legion.

Just starting up Iron Warriors and I was wondering if the Heldrake is OK? I remember it being considered OP when it was first released but was under the impression it had been nerfed a lot since then.