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I've read Starship Troopers, Stranger, and the Number of the Beast. I came away with a few conclusions and I think I'll list them in the order that I came to them by.

1. Robert Heinlein really really liked to write about sex. Specifically, free sex. Admittedly, I haven't read all or even most of his work but I had a hard time finishing Stranger and Number because twice a chapter someone was getting their winky whacked. I understand that he was espousing or at least writing about free love, but come on - it seemed a blatant attempt at selling more books to the fan persons.

2, I was required to write a paper on Heinlein and wanted to write it on Troopers... but my teacher point-blank refused to let me write it on what he thought was trash, instead, I practically told me to write it on Stranger, which shows that even a guy who holds a ph.d in literature sometimes can't differentiate between a protagonist and the author espousing a philosophy.

3. Heinlein suffered from what I call Platoism -- the utter inability of his viewpoint to be challenged in any meaningful way. As Plato wrote the supposed conversations of Socrates where the greatest men in the land were reduced to agreeing dumbly with everything Socrates said, so to did anyone who listened to Dubois or Mike or that dude from Number of the Beast. There was no angst, no doubt, just a blind certainty that their way was the ONLY right way. Reminds me of Gee Dub.

4. Even after everyone on campus told me to read Stranger, I still like Troopers more which is why I'm writing this at Dakka instead of www.iread"seriousliterature"andhaveagiant poleupmyass.com

From the samples you've read, I can understand your conclusions. Number of the Beast, in particular, is a very strange book - while Heinlein dabbled with this idea of "world as myth" elsewhere, he rather clobbers you over the head with it there. And yes, many of his characters in there were...friendly. At the least, he wasn't inhibited in his writing by the societal rules he gew up with; good for him. He may have overreacted a bit in his writing (though not his personal life, from all accounts).

Lots of English professors don't like Heinlein; I had a discussion with one once, over his categorization of Heinlein as "hard" SF (e.g., focused on the gadgets/technology, rather than the characters), and I didn't especially agree.

Your third conclusion, while I understand where you got it, I don't agree with. Some of Heinlein's characters are more easily led than others, granted. Others? Less so.

Completely agree. My Dad had talked up SiaSL so much before I read it. The cult stuff at the end really ruined an otherwise interesting idea. Once I finished it I just couldn't understand how he could call it his favorite sci-fi book. It must be a hippie thing.


All his later stuff had -friendly- characters. It's too bad too, cause there's some great characters and ideas in those books that are kinda ruined by what I figured was classid dirty old man syndrome. Still, Lazarus Long is still one of my alltime favorite characters.

One thing that's always puzzled me about Heinlen is he's seemingly tied with the counter culture of the 60's but he's also a noted conservative (eg. I recall he was in a spirited debate with Clarke over the neccesity of Reagan's Star Wars initiative, so much so that they never spoke again.) That's why I can't buy into the post above, concerning him wanting to please his hippie fans.

by fellblade:

"Just put yourself in the shoes, I mean tire-tread sandals, of some poor flower child whose first exposure to Heinlein was this 'grokking' book all his hippy friends were talking about. Then imagine him maybe looking for something else by the same author, and finding a heavy fascist trip/discourse on civic virtue instead of another counterculture mindblower."

If you are referring to me or someone like me then you certainly don't know me or what I am about. I fell over laughing after reading that.

- Greenie

Don't know you at all, wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. Glad it made you laugh.

Imagine someone forming their opinion of Heinlien based on 'Stranger'.  Then imagine that person reading 'Tunnel in the Sky'.  I will say, I enjoyed 'Tunnel' more than 'Lord of the Flies', but still....

Posted By Janthkin on 04/26/2007 8:12 AM
TNG started in the late 80s; communism wasn't dead yet. Indeed, it provided a basis for the Borg (yes, Iknow a lot of people would prefer if they were corporate evil). DS9 had some lovely capitalism/economy stuff (how does the economy change, in light of cheap/free matter replication?), as well as competing imperialistic interests.

The Borg were a complete rip off of Saberhagen's Berserkers, which were as much a representation of the fears of communism as a fear of the dehumanization of technology.

 

I had to edit that. Grrr to posting so late at night.

I had a feeling that I kind picked up the wrong books. Time enough for Love sounds intriguing as I haven't read any of the Lazarus Long books yet.

By the way, has anyone compiled a Dakka Must Read List? I've read Herbert and some Heinlein, Philip K. Dick, Haldeman, Asimov, and a few of the other "classics" of hard SF but I was wondering if anyone had put together the list.

"The Borg were a complete rip off of Saberhagen's Berserkers, which were as much a representation of the fears of communism as a fear of the dehumanization of communism."

That is one reason why the character 7 of 9 from the Voyager series was so interesting... plus that tight hugging body suit.

- Greenie

Posted By Sgt_Scruffy on 05/01/2007 12:08 PM
I had a feeling that I kind picked up the wrong books. Time enough for Love sounds intriguing as I haven't read any of the Lazarus Long books yet.

By the way, has anyone compiled a Dakka Must Read List? I've read Herbert and some Heinlein, Philip K. Dick, Haldeman, Asimov, and a few of the other "classics" of hard SF but I was wondering if anyone had put together the list.

There has been threads in the past cncerning books or literature for the genre as must read, but I dont think a compilation has been made.

Not to throw this thread on any more of a tangent than it already is, but I find Herbert to be a MUST read. As well as Dick. Both are good enough to be considered actual literature in the sense of recognized intrinsic artistic value . Lovecraft could be considered mandatory literature as well, but some liberal use of selective reading must be used to tie in parallels to the 40K universe, as his ideas are spread throught 40K and not in any one single race. (necrons, tyranids, chaos, even the imperial state at times.)

Don't forget Arthur C. Clarke either! Ray Bradbury too...

Why not just start a new thread?

It happens all the time. I don't want to go through that Survivor stuff
to get the essentials either. Heck, I'll start one.

You just had to get yourselves all in a freakin' row, didn't you?!
My head hurts now...

Posted By Sgt_Scruffy on 04/30/2007 12:37 PM
...or that dude from Number of the Beast.

You mean Bruce Dickinson?  Wait, wha?

No... his name was Zebadiah Carter and I thought him and most of the characters in the book were giant turds.

I hated Number of the Beast. I felt like I'd been hit in the head with a hammer by the end. I usually love Heinlein, too.

It's a messed up book, but I liked it anyway. But then, I rather like reading about uberpeople. The fact that I've loved the Burroughs Mars books and several of the other stories he name-checks since I was a kid just added to my enjoyment.

For other Heinlein recommendations, Time Enough for Love is excellent. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is arguably his best. Most of his early "juveniles" are outstanding. I'm a fan of the previously mentioned Tunnel in the Sky.

I loved Heinlein's teeny novels...I still re-read them today.

Podkayne of Mars
Have Spacesuit, Will Travel
Red Planet
Space Cadets (I think)

I still have bunches of them.

Agree completely-- Moon is probably my fav of Henlein's. Time Enough for Love is one of the few socalled later works that I'd recommend (not a fan of 666, Cat, Sail beyond the sunset and thelike, well atleast wouldn't recommend them highly).

Citizen of the Galaxy is a pretty good one too, of his earlier stuff. Loved the first part of it, is kinda ok toward the end.

*sniff*