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Blank wrote: Some stuff with orks and cheese in it

I don't think the problem mainly discussed here is that dwarfs are too powerful, it's that the army book only gives you one boring option if you want to play competitive (or overpowered depends on definition and who you ask).

Greets
Schepp himself

Yup. and any other option isn't really fluffy.

in terms of fluff the other thing to remember is that the dwarfs are a dying race, there runesmiths are not as great as they where back in the day, so it can be believed that there engineers, while at one point where the greatest in the old world, they have now been superseeded by the up and coming race of man. hence the creation of the rocket battery and steam tank by Humans. SO what the dwarfs have is very high quality, but they are unlikly to make anything new. Oh and on the fast atack option. The dwarfs are the only race to have a flying war machine.

ginric99 wrote:Oh and on the fast atack option. The dwarfs are the only race to have a flying war machine.

True, but it is a rare and inflicts light wounds, crashes, etc. I like it alot (my brother and I talked about making variants) but it does not really help the holes in the Dwarf list all by itself.

I do not mind the stats, but it really should cost maybe 1/3 of what it costs now.

All the WOW players and the fans of steam-punk would be more interested if Dwarfs were to bring out a bit more of the Engineer Guild Toys in the next book. I would like to see Gyrocpters stay Rare, but be 2 for 1 slot like bolt throwers.

damnit all..I just picked up the Battle for Skull Pass and a box of Thunderers. You mean to tell me I started collecting a boring ass, one trick pony army? doh!

olympia wrote:damnit all..I just picked up the Battle for Skull Pass and a box of Thunderers. You mean to tell me I started collecting a boring ass, one trick pony army? doh!

True... but some of the coolest fluff of any army out there!

I agree that dwarfs are in need of an overhaul. I do not agree that just their shooting should be nerfed - dwarfs are described (almost) everywhere as the finest infantry in the world, perfectly capable of holding and defeating even the most powerful cavalry charges.
Excep that in game terms, with the sudden powerboost cav has been getting (what in blazes were they thinking? Cav was overpowered already...), they can't. They tend to die even to certain other infantry (swordmasters come to mind).
In fact, as it stands, dwarfs are completely helpless in one phase (magic), nearly so in another (movement), and arguably mediocre at best in a third (combat - too few attacks, and too many high strength attacks floating around everywhere).

I know it doesn't really apply to a fantasy game, but historically, cavalry which charged disciplined, capable infantry head-on were committing suicide. IMO, dwarf combat infantry (especially the elites - they're our army's equivalent of heavy cav) should be boosted to where it can, actually, do so. IMO, anyone who charges dwarfs head-on should die horribly, except, possibly, brets or warriors/knights of chaos. In return, yes, the shooting may have to be lessened in power to prevent Grotsnik's nightmare scenario - I will agree that that's no fun to play against.

I rather liked one of the suggestions made earlier, as well. Give dwarfs magic back, in the form of one-use-only (or multiple-use) runes that function as bound spells. Make a bunch of them runelords only, so there's actually an incentive to take them other than the Anvil (and return the Anvil more or less to its 6th edition functionality).
It retains their fluff of distrusting magic and mages, preferring to bind it instead, while giving them the option to be a little more than completely defensive vs magic.

Something like:
Golden Sceptre of Norgrim (anyone remember this one?)
50 pts
bound spell, power level 5
The unit (but not attached characters) gains your choice of +1S, +1 armoursave, or +1 movement until the start of your next magic phase.

Ancestor rune (banner rune) (10 pts)
bound spell, power level 4, one use only
unit is stubborn until the start of your next turn (magic phase w/e).

Rune of passage (banner rune) (5 pts)
bound spell, power level 3 (one use only?)
Remains in play. The unit carrying this rune and using it suffers no movement penalties

Fiery Ring of Thori (25 pts)
bound spell, power level 4, one use only
target a dwarf unit within x inches.
Until the start of your next turn, any enemy model coming into contact with the target unit sustains 1 flaming, S4, no armour saves allowed hit.

That's just off the top of my head, a recap of a couple of favorite runes/items from way back in 5th edition. I'm sure more are easily come up with. I'm equally sure these probably aren't balanced for play.

Bran Dawri wrote:I agree that dwarfs are in need of an overhaul. I do not agree that just their shooting should be nerfed - dwarfs are described (almost) everywhere as the finest infantry in the world, perfectly capable of holding and defeating even the most powerful cavalry charges.

Every army is described as having the "finest" infantry in the world. No one tends to want to buy infantry described as "rubbish and crap".

Excep that in game terms, with the sudden powerboost cav has been getting (what in blazes were they thinking? Cav was overpowered already...), they can't.

They tend to die even to certain other infantry (swordmasters come to mind).

Yeah. That's where the caveat capable, disciplined came in.
Incapable infantry wouldn't chose the right place or defenses. Disciplined = holds its ground.

And not every infantry is described as the best. Greenskins and skaven certainly aren't. Human (empire) is usually described as capable, and their elites are supposedly "good". Saurus and elves are described as among the best (excepting swordmasters - point conceded there, although I maintain that dwarf elites should be an even match - which they're not).
Dwarfs are described as the finest infantry a commander could wish for. And that's just background.

Without the dwarfs actually having the skills to back up this claim on the tabletop, the only recourse left for them is to castle up and fire at will. Please. Think of poor Will.

I do not particularly like castling my dwarves to win games.

Unfortunately for all parties involved, my dwarf armies will be castled gun lines until dwarf armies are given an option other than shooting to deal with the fantastical units in the game: dragons, greater demons, tanks, or other random units that do not play the game like blocks of troops. I will spam artillery until I have another way to guaranty that enough artillery will be available to eliminate such fantastical units.

I haven't purchased Thorek yet, but I have not found a compelling reason against fielding him in all games in which it is allowed.

Instead of giving the whole army stubborn or point reductions, why not just make the "more disiplined" units immune to fear? I actually play dwarves.
List as follows:

Dwarf Lord
GW
MR of steel
2xrune of stone
mr of spite

Thane BSB
MR of stromni redbeard (+1 cr to all dwarves within 6")
rune of battle
rune of protection (5+ ward)

Runesmith
MR of balance
rune of spellbreaking
shield

2x (20) longbeards one with rune of courage other with rune of courage and ancestor rune
hw/shlds

1x (10) warriors (veteran only)
gw

3 cannons (1 explody rune)
organ gun
rest of points vary from 5-strong miner unit for quarters to max 15 thunderers no shields

7 BFSP sets for the win. + 1 box of warriors & organ gun.

And with all other dwarf players, as soon as I take any more than the 15 thunderers, . My only problem with the army book (if any) is the fact that these dwarves would rather hack down their foes with an axe but run away because they fear weaksauce units (demons without killing-blow, skeletons). Don't get me wrong here though, dwarf infantry blocks are by far the best bang for the points just by bieng the only T4 models on a small base. Its just I would think that a 250-300 point block of "determined" infantry would be able to stay in combat without having to roll insane courage just because they lost cr by 1 and are outnumbered by a weaker force.

As for bear cav... No thanks.

Anvil definate needs either a nerf or a swap back to the magic phase. Anything to pl 9+ (regular) to pl13+ (ap) really isn't hard for other armies to deal with. I've never taken one to be honest though. Probably never will.

Hammerers are just fine... leave them be.

Iron-breakers do probably need either a ward save or +1 A. Playtesting them just gets them ran over (they usually are public-enemy number one).

Slayers would be awesome if you could throw them out of units (cc only for balance) like fanatics, then after initial release become weaksauce solo units.

As for the steampunk theme goes, why not let them have an engineer mount like a prototype dreadnaught or something of the like.

Handgunners and quarrelers probably should swap WS and BS. Taking away the +1 on handguns better give a point redux though.

That about covers it methinks.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Dwarfs require serious assistance if they're going to become a playable army in terms of WHFB as it is.

M4 would be a great start.
Slayers Skirmishing would be nice.
The ability to take elite infantry without having to give up shooting (ie. Special Slots) would be fantastic. Use the "mainstay" rule or something similar from Skaven or like Longbeards are now.
Something big in Rare (Dwarf Steam Tank) would help a ton.
Give Dwarfs Magic back - Bound spells all over the place on Runesmiths.

WaltF4 wrote:I do not particularly like castling my dwarves to win games.

Unfortunately for all parties involved, my dwarf armies will be castled gun lines until dwarf armies are given an option other than shooting to deal with the fantastical units in the game: dragons, greater demons, tanks, or other random units that do not play the game like blocks of troops. I will spam artillery until I have another way to guaranty that enough artillery will be available to eliminate such fantastical units.

I haven't purchased Thorek yet, but I have not found a compelling reason against fielding him in all games in which it is allowed.

Waaaaah.

How do you think Empire, Skaven, and O&G armies deal with dragons? I can tell you definitively as an Empire player that it's with cannons, so you're not alone. Dwarves are NOT the only army whose troops are incapable of dealing with most large monsters. In fact, they're better suited to it than most because of higher Toughness, better armor, and Ld9 all around.

Claiming that you're only 'spamming' artillery as a result is really one of two things: Lack of imagination, or lack of tactics. Which is it?

NOTE: Thorek is the ONLY model/unit in Warhammer that I have ever called broken. I played against him exactly one time, and that number is going to remain at one.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Waaaaah.

How do you think Empire, Skaven, and O&G armies deal with dragons? I can tell you definitively as an Empire player that it's with cannons, so you're not alone. Dwarves are NOT the only army whose troops are incapable of dealing with most large monsters. In fact, they're better suited to it than most because of higher Toughness, better armor, and Ld9 all around.

Claiming that you're only 'spamming' artillery as a result is really one of two things: Lack of imagination, or lack of tactics. Which is it?

NOTE: Thorek is the ONLY model/unit in Warhammer that I have ever called broken. I played against him exactly one time, and that number is going to remain at one.

[Empire has just about everything dwarfs do + Griffins, Knights, Wizards.
Skaven (haven't played against them in the new edition) has superior numbers, rat-ogres (monsters), throw-away units (slaves) and used to have hidden artillery (but not anymore, I think).
O&G have Giants, Trolls, 'knights', etc.

In other words, just about every army has monsters and/or cavalry. Dwarfs have artillery that is also had by most other armies. They just have to take more to counter the extra stuff others take.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:Claiming that you're only 'spamming' artillery as a result is really one of two things: Lack of imagination, or lack of tactics. Which is it?

Firstly, I never claimed that was the only reason I spam artillery. Secondly, I know there are more then two reasons as to why someone would spam artillery. However, given your options, I would say lack of imagination, as I do not see a unit of Hammerers/Ironbreakers/Slayers being demonstrably superior to a unit of Dwarf Warriors/Long Beards and a unit of artillery.

I would like to offer up another possible solution. Choas and Vamps have gifts or bloodline abilities. What if Dwarfs had something similar for their Lord? A quick example below ignor the points and such as they are not balanced. But I would say that only the army general has access to these.

Dwarf Lord Values

40 pts Traditional – The dwarf Lord holds true to the Old Ways. May have one more unit of Longbeards than Warriors. May include 1 Bolt-Thrower or Grudge Thrower option as a troop choice that does not count toward the Minimum Core.

40 pts Progressive – The dwarf Lord served in the Engineer Guild in his youth and still holds a fascination for the technological. Organ Guns and Flame Cannons become Special.

35 pts Oathbound – The duty of an old oath sits heavy on this Dwarf Lord’s brow. The Lord and any unit he joins is Unbreakable.

30 pts Lost – This dwarf Lord is wandering, as his Hold was overrun by Skaven, Goblins, or the like. One unit of Warriors is upgraded to Rangers at no cost and may be joined by the Lord.

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Waaaaah.

How do you think Empire, Skaven, and O&G armies deal with dragons? I can tell you definitively as an Empire player that it's with cannons, so you're not alone. Dwarves are NOT the only army whose troops are incapable of dealing with most large monsters. In fact, they're better suited to it than most because of higher Toughness, better armor, and Ld9 all around.

Claiming that you're only 'spamming' artillery as a result is really one of two things: Lack of imagination, or lack of tactics. Which is it?

NOTE: Thorek is the ONLY model/unit in Warhammer that I have ever called broken. I played against him exactly one time, and that number is going to remain at one.

Empire has just about everything dwarfs do + Griffins, Knights, Wizards.
Skaven (haven't played against them in the new edition) has superior numbers, rat-ogres (monsters), throw-away units (slaves) and used to have hidden artillery (but not anymore, I think).
O&G have Giants, Trolls, 'knights', etc.

In other words, just about every army has monsters and/or cavalry. Dwarfs have artillery that is also had by most other armies. They just have to take more to counter the extra stuff others take.

I think you missed my point. My post wasn't about balancing an all-infantry army against one that includes heavy cavalry or monsters. I was pointing out that a claim that a Dwarf gunline is the only viable option because war machines are their only method of dealing with large monsters is bunk. I pointed out three other armies that largely need war machines to deal with large monsters to point out that they can work with other styles.

Interestingly, your post does bring me to the next step. Sure, other armies have different types of units, like cavalry. But where those armies have cavalry, Dwarves have rock-hard infantry; I'm still not all that keen on running even my Inner Circle Knights into most Dwarven infantry. Is it true that Dwarves lack the kind of fast hammer unit that most other armies have? Sure. But how many armies can field T4 infantry with a 2+ save in combat, have several ranks, and Ld9? They might not kill much, but they certainly aren't going anywhere. Hold against the charge, then repel the enemy should be the tactic here.

Hey Manfred,

Not trying to pick a fight, but your point was kinda off a bit. Those trolls, knight, griffons, etc that I mentioned are good at taking on bigger stuff (being none-too small themselves). Your second point is more on target to my mind. But basically that says that dwarfs are the army of doing nothing, getting charged, and hoping to have a good round to break the enemy. They dont deal the kind of damage needed to relaible break units (Nor should a base dwarf unit do so), so it does take a lucky round. I dislike the idea that I need a lucky round (having already taken the charge) to have a chance at winning. Sure my units survive in combat (only 1 unit in the army has that great save you mentioned) but that means nothing once we reach the slow grind of round after round of losing the combat but making the Ld check. I will end the game with nothing to show for it.

Manfred von Drakken,

Could you please post an example of your Empire army list and a rough outline of a Dwarf army list that you feel can realistically compete against it as well as common VC, DoC, and Elf army lists without becoming a gun line? The point value, game format, and definition of gun line can be what ever you feel appropriate. Let "realistically compete" mean "50% chance to win a game without unusual luck or blunders by either player."

The question is open to anyone else and their choice of army as well.

Not to nitpick but...

Dwarf Lord
GW
MR of steel
2xrune of stone
mr of spite

Rune of Stone - Multiples of this rune have no further effect

Anyway, i believe that in order for one to do consistently well in WHFB you need to control 2 of the phases and at least put up a good fight in a third phase (I.e. Dominate the moving/cc phase and put up a fight in the magic phase)
As it currently stands Dwarfs only dominate the shooting phase, and they can put up a fight in either the magic phase or the CC phase (Choosing between an Anvil or a tooled up Lord respectively)
The movement phase, no matter how well you strike your runes on the anvil or strategically use your Strollaz Rune is always lost, especially when facing cavalry/chariots/flyers.
Now i realize that GW cant possibly make every army the #1 competitor but as I see it dwarves are stuck in the middle.

Take for example Chaos Warriors - most people run these 16 points a pop (halberds) and probably Khorne, this makes for a unit that you cant really make any bigger than 15 models but is really awesome in combat (15~16 Attacks, S5, WS5, I5)
Then take a look at units like Orc Boyz most people (i've seen) run these at 7 points a pop (Additional Choppa) you can totally put 25~30 in one unit and swarm them around the board.
The Chaos Warriors are obviously limited in number, but make up for this in pure killing power. The Orcs on the other hand lack real killing power but make up for this because of their number/number of attacks

Then you have the Dwarfs, EVERYONE in the list has 1 attack (RnF) limiting your number of attacks, which wouldn't be such a big deal but add to that our inability to (practically) make our blocks bigger than 20 because of the steep point cost is another hit to our CC phase
The high cost of our units (And the lore) seems to suggest that a Dwarf should have at least some prowess in close combat, but when it comes down to it you're always attacking last because of the dependence the dwarfs have on great weapons (and realistically if you dont bring an Anvil you're never ever going to get the charge)
Dwarfs with GW's arent exactly hard to kill (5+AS, S4~5+ is extremely common so your AS is practically gone) so after taking a beating first in every CC phase before you get to attack back with an even further diminished amount of dice

I don't have any clear cut solutions to completely fix this army without completely copying another army, and I dont really think the "fix" is something as simple as an army wide Stubborn, or Gromril armor on everyone but it might very well be a combination of several things people have already named in this thread

(P.S eventho it totally fits with the lore and I don't want to see it removed - the Resolute rule is bullcrap, the amount of times that -1" has screwed me out of a successful pursue is staggering )

If you guys hate how the dwarf rules are at this point, why do you play them? I love my dwarfs because of all the reasons you want them changed. I love the gun line, I love the fact that they stick around and i love the fact that they are DIFFERENT! Sure I don't win with them as much as I do with my Elves or my Lizardmen, but heyit's not all about winning.

There like SM in 40k, they dont live up to fluff.

@ Arion: Because the backgroud for dwarfs is awesome. No other fantasy army appeals to me as much as the dwarfs, and I doubt any ever will.

Arion wrote:If you guys hate how the dwarf rules are at this point, why do you play them? I love my dwarfs because of all the reasons you want them changed. I love the gun line, I love the fact that they stick around and i love the fact that they are DIFFERENT! Sure I don't win with them as much as I do with my Elves or my Lizardmen, but heyit's not all about winning.

To be honest, I don't hate the rules. I view them as incomplete. I really don’t want to turn the dwarf warrior into a carbon copy of a chaos warrior. I want it to remain mostly the same. What I really want is a few less and a few more options.

For example. In the Special slots I have too many options but all of them are a little screwy. I would like for Hammerers to be un upgrade on Ironbreakers (yes, give the King's Guard Gromil for Pete's sake!). I would like Miners put back in troops as a 0-1. I would like all traditional artillery to be in one Special Choice and not blow up (attached engineer adds +1 to misfire tables). I would like slayers (you know, those lone wanderers who somehow never fight big stuff, just rank up and tie down other ranked units) moved to Rare beefed up and made into a small powerful skirmish unit. I would like the Organ Gun and Flame cannon moved to Special (even if you need to tone them down to do it). Add a steam tank in the Rare options.

So there are a few tweaks, but I like the base rules. I feel it just needs a few additions.

Bran Dawri wrote:@ Arion: Because the backgroud for dwarfs is awesome. No other fantasy army appeals to me as much as the dwarfs, and I doubt any ever will.

Amen, Brother!

[raises hands and dances awkwardly]

Bran Dawri wrote:@ Arion: Because the backgroud for dwarfs is awesome. No other fantasy army appeals to me as much as the dwarfs, and I doubt any ever will.

This

Kadros wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:@ Arion: Because the backgroud for dwarfs is awesome. No other fantasy army appeals to me as much as the dwarfs, and I doubt any ever will.

This

Same here!

wait- so people actually *use* Thorek? I mean, I *have" the model...but I remember I never was all that impressed playing against Thorek - he can't move, his guards are nothing - (and I always just cast Vaul's unmaking (I play HE as well) on him and destroyed his stupid armour and weapon so I could kill him no problem.) The only point ot Thorek was striking the anvil to make all dwarves cause fear (admittedly neat, and if playing agianst undead, or daemons, maybe useful, but with Ld9, it's not like I'm going ot be failing leadersihp tests anytime soon). I just don't see the use in Thorek, at all.