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Is there any reason you can't just place your models 2" away from the valk and let them drop onto the table?

willydstyle wrote:

I'm going to model all of my predators and battlewagons to be 9" wide and 3" long so I only have 3" side arcs. Better yet, I'll make them triangles so they don't have a rear arc at all.

If you think this is the same as disembarking from a stock Valkyrie, then it's pretty clear that people should stop responding to you.

+1 to the ignore list.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Is there any reason you can't just place your models 2" away from the valk and let them drop onto the table?

No there isn't. I mean its not your fault that gravity works. Of course if you sandwich your IG trooper in-between a cat and a piece of buttered toast you can solve the gravity problem.

Correct me if I'm totally off track, but if the ruling was that Valks could embark/disembark, wouldn't weapons also measure to the base?

I don't think it's that we want the best of both worlds, we just want the valk to be treated like any other skimmer.

Wildeyedjester wrote:Here is the section from the inat faq which most tournaments are now using:

RB.03B.01 – Q: When models are supplied with multiple differently sized bases, are players allowed to choose which base to mount them on?
A: Players must, to the best of their ability, mount models on the proper base size as dictated by the majority of Games Workshop hobby materials [clarification]. When in doubt, contact the tournament organizer for a ruling on a particular model.

RB.03B.02 – Q: If a model is mounted on a scenic base and an opponent objects to it, what happens?
A: If an opponent objects to a scenic base, the model may still be used in the game. However during the game, to the best of both players’ abilities, the model must be treated as if it were based on a standard-sized, non-scenic Games Workshop base [clarification].

I could live with this because it would mean I wouldn't have to carry that god awful flying stand to tournaments...

I think if you are going to unload troops or capture a location, you should bring the ship off the base for that turn and only put it on the base on the next turn or when you move it again. The cost of dropping troops or capturing a point should be a risk (read - being on the ground and vulnerable just like any other flying vehicle). Hovering 10 inches above the LZ or objective just doesn't cut it imo.

Flexen wrote:I think if you are going to unload troops or capture a location, you should bring the ship off the base for that turn and only put it on the base on the next turn or when you move it again. The cost of dropping troops or capturing a point should be a risk (read - being on the ground and vulnerable just like any other flying vehicle). Hovering 10 inches above the LZ or objective just doesn't cut it imo.

Except the rules tell us that a skimmer can only be removed from its base when it's destroyed or immobilized.

willydstyle wrote:

Flexen wrote:I think if you are going to unload troops or capture a location, you should bring the ship off the base for that turn and only put it on the base on the next turn or when you move it again. The cost of dropping troops or capturing a point should be a risk (read - being on the ground and vulnerable just like any other flying vehicle). Hovering 10 inches above the LZ or objective just doesn't cut it imo.

Except the rules tell us that a skimmer can only be removed from its base when it's destroyed or immobilized.

I bet GW never dreamed a 10inch base would cause so many issues!

To speak the obvious this issue might not get resolved until GW chimes in.

If this is true for the Valkyrie then its true for the scout landspeeder the landspeeder prong thing that comes with it is more than 2inches tall. Oh and Dark Eldar Reavers as well that flying base it comes with places it like 2 and 1/2 inches off of the table there for you cannot dismount.


I say measure horizantally without regard for height by the way.

Models can easily disembark from a Land Speeder Storm or Raider because their heads can be within 2" of the access point (the hull, in the case of the open-topped speeder).

Wildeyedjester wrote:Here is the ruling from the main judge from the Big Waaagh GT. While not GW or faq, this is a major tournament and does set a precedent.

1. Can the Valkyrie contest objectives/claim them if loaded with troops, since it is so high off the ground? If I put its base on the objective?
2. Can the Valkyrie still outflank with troops on board?
3. Can the Valkyrie embark/disembark troops as normal without having to deep strike (height problems b/c of base)?

1. Yes, treat the vehical as if it sits on the table for this purpose.
2. Yes, the vehical does not lose this special ablitity.
3. Yes, look at answer # 1

http://thebigwaaagh.com/index.php?topic=36.30

Thank god for reasonable TO's

The intent is so clear from the wording that they intended the model to be alowed to disembark and there has never been a model that was measured using vertical distance. And everyone calling this strict RAW is being very selective. The rule says "within 2 inches", the example shows this to be horizontal distance and there is neither precedent nor example for this to be measured as vertical distance. To say that it there is clear RAW preventing Valks from being allowed to do what the rule entry says they can do is just selective reading to support your desire to cripple the model.

I think thats the crux of the matter. I've not seen the 3rd dimension utilized in deployment before.

bigtmac68 wrote:

Wildeyedjester wrote:Here is the ruling from the main judge from the Big Waaagh GT. While not GW or faq, this is a major tournament and does set a precedent.

1. Can the Valkyrie contest objectives/claim them if loaded with troops, since it is so high off the ground? If I put its base on the objective?
2. Can the Valkyrie still outflank with troops on board?
3. Can the Valkyrie embark/disembark troops as normal without having to deep strike (height problems b/c of base)?

1. Yes, treat the vehical as if it sits on the table for this purpose.
2. Yes, the vehical does not lose this special ablitity.
3. Yes, look at answer # 1

http://thebigwaaagh.com/index.php?topic=36.30

Thank god for reasonable TO's

The intent is so clear from the wording that they intended the model to be alowed to disembark and there has never been a model that was measured using vertical distance. And everyone calling this strict RAW is being very selective. The rule says "within 2 inches", the example shows this to be horizontal distance and there is neither precedent nor example for this to be measured as vertical distance. To say that it there is clear RAW preventing Valks from being allowed to do what the rule entry says they can do is just selective reading to support your desire to cripple the model.

See, I see the TO's ruling to be unfair, because it specifies that the valk is only "on the table" for purposes of disembarking/embarking, and contesting. It means that the players get all the advantages of being on a tall base (LoS, outside of double-melta range, can contest high objectives) with none of the disadvantages.

Every other vehicle in the game has to play with limitations based on the size and shape of the model. Players assuming that they'll automatically get special exceptions because they feel like it is silly.

As far as the 2D/3D movement thing: look at the picture of the jetbike moving on page 83 of the rulebook. The example shows three-dimensional measurement of movement, so no, it's not so clear that GW intends for all movement and measurement to be made in a two-dimensional plane.

Could you put bosspoles on your guardsmen so they'd be within the two inches?

Orkeosaurus wrote:Could you put bosspoles on your guardsmen so they'd be within the two inches?

If they all have one how will they figure out who's da real boss?

His pole will be... uh... bossier?

willydstyle wrote:Models can easily disembark from a Land Speeder Storm or Raider because their heads can be within 2" of the access point (the hull, in the case of the open-topped speeder).

Don't you have to measure from the model's base to the hull of the Valk? Movement is measured from a model's base no?

Kasrkinlegion wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Models can easily disembark from a Land Speeder Storm or Raider because their heads can be within 2" of the access point (the hull, in the case of the open-topped speeder).

Don't you have to measure from the model's base to the hull of the Valk? Movement is measured from a model's base no?

Movement is measured from any point on the model, as the movement rules do not specify that you use the base to move, just as long as you're not moving more than your allotted allowance. And while disembarking has some similarities to movement, it is not normal movement, and the rules for disembarking do not say the base has to be within 2", just that the model has to be within 2".

I just want to clarify that I think following the RaW for this just stupid. I'm merely saying that it's a handy gem for people that want to stick GKT in their Valk's.

I do think that if you want the advantages, people should be able to melta the base, and that you should only measure from the base for determining objective contesting. The LoS issue is kinda grey. I'd probably let that one slide (not much grants a 'fex a cover save anyways).

RustyKnight wrote:I just want to clarify that I think following the RaW for this just stupid. I'm merely saying that it's a handy gem for people that want to stick GKT in their Valk's.

I do think that if you want the advantages, people should be able to melta the base, and that you should only measure from the base for determining objective contesting. The LoS issue is kinda grey. I'd probably let that one slide (not much grants a 'fex a cover save anyways).

I agree with you. I just think that players should know all the pertinent rules before they decide which ones they need to break to make the model playable, and also discuss it with your opponents before just assuming that you have the right to play by whatever variant rules you want.

If only it were so easy.

To get to the othe-KILL MAIM BURN!!!

That actually not true. You can read the example for movement and proper movement you cannot measure for instance from the point of a heavy weapon gun that reaches beyond the models base. It even states to disregard miscelleaneous features of a model; The only time that applies is that you do not have to see a models base to shoot at it.

Here are your relevant page numbers.

PG. 12 example for moving models

PG. pg 16 LOS

PG. For Embarking and Disembarking clearly shows that it is judge by the base of the model.


Now let's go over to moving horizantally which you can find a example of the rules and although does not cover disembarkation from a vehicle leads to illustrate how you measure "up" ; As if we used your example of measuring from the models head then he would be able to move beyond his movement up etc..

pg83 is pretty clear on that when measuring horizantilly for movement ; not for coherency which gives leeway because of terrain.


My point ultimatley is that people who want to argue this have to go with it all across the board ; I don't think that the Valkyrie model is the only model that causes problems because of its size per example the defiler and what counts as being in base to base.


Ultimately I dont think this will ever be considered by GW as it is kind of a dumb question and they generally dont answer questions like this.


If you want email the question guy but I dont believe he will side with the models not being able to disembark normally.

bigtmac68 wrote:

Wildeyedjester wrote:Here is the ruling from the main judge from the Big Waaagh GT. While not GW or faq, this is a major tournament and does set a precedent.

1. Can the Valkyrie contest objectives/claim them if loaded with troops, since it is so high off the ground? If I put its base on the objective?
2. Can the Valkyrie still outflank with troops on board?
3. Can the Valkyrie embark/disembark troops as normal without having to deep strike (height problems b/c of base)?

1. Yes, treat the vehical as if it sits on the table for this purpose.
2. Yes, the vehical does not lose this special ablitity.
3. Yes, look at answer # 1

http://thebigwaaagh.com/index.php?topic=36.30

Thank god for reasonable TO's

The intent is so clear from the wording that they intended the model to be alowed to disembark and there has never been a model that was measured using vertical distance. And everyone calling this strict RAW is being very selective. The rule says "within 2 inches", the example shows this to be horizontal distance and there is neither precedent nor example for this to be measured as vertical distance. To say that it there is clear RAW preventing Valks from being allowed to do what the rule entry says they can do is just selective reading to support your desire to cripple the model.

So if I had a land raider and my table terrain had a 20 inch cliff - with your explanation of disembarking I could drive to the edge and drop my guys down the cliff 20 inches as long as they are within 2 inches horizontally of the hatch. Or I could even drive my land raider to a section of wall and have them disembark 2 stories above the tank as long as they are within 2 inches horizontally of the hatch.

The examples are just that: examples.

While there is no rule saying that the bases of a model do not count as part of a model, there is also no rule saying that you can only measure to/from the base, and in the case of skimmers, it is very specific that the only time you measure to the base is for assaulting the skimmer.

The rules also don't ever specify whether movement is in a 3D world, or a 2D plane, but the example on page 83 very clearly shows 3D movement in the case of that jetbike. In a game that uses 3D models and terrain, and movement in inches rather than in grid squares, 3D movement is the most intuitive, and most simple way to do it.

willydstyle wrote:While there is no rule saying that the bases of a model do not count as part of a model, there is also no rule saying that you can only measure to/from the base, and in the case of skimmers, it is very specific that the only time you measure to the base is for assaulting the skimmer.

Page 3 of the rulebook: "Measuring Distances"

All measurement uses the base of the model. The only time you can use a different part of the model is when the rules say that you can. Specifically applying to vehicles and for measuring coherency in ruins.

You can't measure to the model's head for disembarking.

insaniak wrote:

willydstyle wrote:While there is no rule saying that the bases of a model do not count as part of a model, there is also no rule saying that you can only measure to/from the base, and in the case of skimmers, it is very specific that the only time you measure to the base is for assaulting the skimmer.

Page 3 of the rulebook: "Measuring Distances"

All measurement uses the base of the model. The only time you can use a different part of the model is when the rules say that you can. Specifically applying to vehicles and for measuring coherency in ruins.

You can't measure to the model's head for disembarking.

Good call.

I guess this really is a problem with all skimmers then... not just valkyries... GWs rules really make me want to not play the game any more.

Hollismason wrote:If this is true for the Valkyrie then its true for the scout landspeeder the landspeeder prong thing that comes with it is more than 2inches tall.

Does the storm have a different flight stem to the regular landspeeder? Because so far as I'm aware, skimmers (other than the Valk) all come with one of 2 different flight stem sprues, each with 2 stems. The first has stems that are a little over a half and a little over 3/4s of an inch tall. The other has stems that are 1 and a quarter and 1 and 3/8s of an inch tall.

Oh and Dark Eldar Reavers as well that flying base it comes with places it like 2 and 1/2 inches off of the table there for you cannot dismount.

The Reaver is a potential problem if mounted on the tallest stem.

I say measure horizantally without regard for height by the way.

Which is fine, and as I mentioned before, how the majority of people seem to play. It's simply not what the rules actually say to do.

Older GW flying bases are taller don't forget to add in the few centimeters for the stand as well as the attachment; Basically it sits around 2/ 3/4th of a inch off the ground or at least mine do and I have the same landspeeders everyone else does.


My whole point is that this is kind of just taking it a little to far and then that is the whole " common sense is not common."


I say measure regardless of height there is not precendent except under the buildings section and everything else is done by measurment from the base.


Also, here is a nifty what if " You can't see the valkyrie but clearly see the base? Can you shoot that ? No you cant.


The whole model takes some adjusting also its at a disadvantage EVERYTHING on the battlefield can see this thing when its on that base.

Hollimason, what's your take on scoring in regards to high up objectives and melta weapons?

willydstyle wrote:

insaniak wrote:

willydstyle wrote:While there is no rule saying that the bases of a model do not count as part of a model, there is also no rule saying that you can only measure to/from the base, and in the case of skimmers, it is very specific that the only time you measure to the base is for assaulting the skimmer.

Page 3 of the rulebook: "Measuring Distances"

All measurement uses the base of the model. The only time you can use a different part of the model is when the rules say that you can. Specifically applying to vehicles and for measuring coherency in ruins.

You can't measure to the model's head for disembarking.

Good call.

I guess this really is a problem with all skimmers then... not just valkyries... GWs rules really make me want to not play the game any more.

Wow I knew a rule Willy didn't? Holy cow...

Seriously though, GW is reknowned for screwing up rules. There games have been a mess since Rogue Trader. They will always make rules like this... kinda sad really...