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moonshine wrote:If anything I think the Space wolves would have done the same to the dark angels if they had more time.


So true. The Russ got what he would have of have done to the Lion

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Pilau Rice wrote:
Brother Ramses wrote:As many as there is known SW haters in this thread, some things need to be put straight about who ordered Russ to Prospero and whether it was a mission of, "arresting" or "sanction".


Brother Ramses wrote:Index Astartes: Space Wolves

At Russ' insistence, the Emperor was persuaded that Magnus was the traitor, not Horus. Horrifed, the Emperor commanded Russ to leave immediately for the Thousand Sons' homeworld. The Wolf-King mustered his Legions about him, and once more prepared to go to war.


Nice one Russ


Brother Ramses wrote:Index Astartes: Thousand Sons

The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted upon to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero.


Brother Ramses wrote:A Thousand Sons, pg 478

"Leman Russ hates us, but even he would never dare attack us without orders", said Ahriman, thinking aloud. "This order must come from a higher source. It comes from the Emperor - it is the only explanation. My lord, what are you not telling us?"

"Always the perceptive one, Ahzek," said Magnus, and the eye swam into sharp focus once more, its hue filled with resignation.


Brother Ramses wrote:Prospero Burns, pg 386

"You must have known our father's hands would be tied. He would have no other option then to turn to me to issue sanction." Russ to Magnus via Kasper


Brother Ramses wrote:Prospero Burns, pg 394

The All-father told the Rout what task he needed them to do, and it was done.


Brother Ramses wrote:Battle of the Fang, pg 456

"....Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly, you were the attack dog of the Emperor."


Brother Ramses wrote:As has been done in other threads about the Wolves and whoever and whatever, I am sure everything will be ignored and personal bias will dictate the rest of this thread.


I don't think it's a case of people ignoring or being haters, it's a case of there being conflicting accounts. All the fluff is from different perspectives, accounts and times, so which version is correct? I don't think Games Workshop will ever say.

The person responsible for sending the Wolves to Prospero I don't think is in question, but the Emperors motives are, was Russ sent to bring Magnus back to Terra or was he sent to kill him.

False Gods p405
'But what of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'

Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'


About the World Eaters, they are mindless barbarians that can't be controlled, they are an atom bomb to the Space Wolves reapers scythe.


I was going through my HH books late last night for that quote but I got tired. It is the only reference that Russ was not at the side of the Emperor when Magnus busted through the webway to send his message to the Emperor. I could not find any other reference to Horus misdirecting Russ other then that one quote.

From Prospero Burns, we have a hint that Russ was willing to accept complete surrender from Magnus and the Thousand Sons when he is trying to relay a message through Kasper. That could be seen as one of two things,

1. Russ does not want to have to sanction one of his brothers again which is supported by Magnus talking about his grief and Russ almost begging Magnus to surrender.

2. He was initially going to take him back to Terra and changed his mind at the revelations of Kasper and the betrayal. However this would not be supported if he had already been told by Horus that it would be a waste of time.

So if we are to believe that Horus told Russ to destroy the Thousand Sons, we have to dismiss all that has been already said that Russ was by the Emperor's side to receive orders directly from him. We would also have to believe that when Russ is trying to relay a message through Kasper that he is defying Horus' order to just destroy the Thousand Sons as well since it appears that Russ makes his decision there to rain hell on Prospero unless Mganus begs him to allow him to surrender.

In this case, I just go with majority fluff ruling with my own twist;

The Emperor ordered Russ to sanction the Thousand Sons. He ordered the Custodes and Sisters of Silence in support of the Wolves, thereby by proxy showing his support. However he also ordered that if the Thousand Sons were to surrender instead, Russ was to accept that offer because having seen Magnus' reaction to what he had done upon the palace, he knew that the primarch was remorseful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/15 16:22:03


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The problem with that theory is that in False Gods, we are given a scene where the newly corrupted Horus sics Russ on Magnus.

I never read the IA articles, but the HH books are nearly all written in third person omniscient. If a character states an opinion, then their viewpoint comes into it, but what the character says is exactly what they said. In that way it is different from fluff in the rulebook and codicies, which are more of a written history, with all the errors that can creep in. So when False Gods has Horus saying (roughly) that Magnus could be a problem, lets get Russ to sort him out, then IMO, that is what happened.
   
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daveNYC wrote:The problem with that theory is that in False Gods, we are given a scene where the newly corrupted Horus sics Russ on Magnus.

I never read the IA articles, but the HH books are nearly all written in third person omniscient. If a character states an opinion, then their viewpoint comes into it, but what the character says is exactly what they said. In that way it is different from fluff in the rulebook and codicies, which are more of a written history, with all the errors that can creep in. So when False Gods has Horus saying (roughly) that Magnus could be a problem, lets get Russ to sort him out, then IMO, that is what happened.


This is where the conflicting opinions come from. The perspectives on all the novels are from different points of view. GW needs to work more on this perhaps edit BL books more
   
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Everytime i think of the thousand sons I always think "Poor peps they didn't deserve it."
But Leman would of allowed magnus back into the fold if his son's surrendered...... but like loyalty to your father you would never betray his image.
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Brother Ramses wrote:
I was going through my HH books late last night for that quote but I got tired. It is the only reference that Russ was not at the side of the Emperor when Magnus busted through the webway to send his message to the Emperor. I could not find any other reference to Horus misdirecting Russ other then that one quote.


It's also revealed to Wyrdmake by Ahriman in Thousand Sons, it mentions the lie by Horus and the urgings of Valdor. Russ was duped.

Brother Ramses wrote:From Prospero Burns, we have a hint that Russ was willing to accept complete surrender from Magnus and the Thousand Sons when he is trying to relay a message through Kasper. That could be seen as one of two things,

1. Russ does not want to have to sanction one of his brothers again which is supported by Magnus talking about his grief and Russ almost begging Magnus to surrender.


Depending on which of the IA articles you go with I don't know if this sentiment can be believed.

Brother Ramses wrote:2. He was initially going to take him back to Terra and changed his mind at the revelations of Kasper and the betrayal. However this would not be supported if he had already been told by Horus that it would be a waste of time.


Russ didn't necessarily need much convincing if their history is as strained as suggested. Could do with a bit more insight into their relationship. I think Russ was itching to get some pay back after Shrike and this was just false sentimentality.

Brother Ramses wrote:So if we are to believe that Horus told Russ to destroy the Thousand Sons, we have to dismiss all that has been already said that Russ was by the Emperor's side to receive orders directly from him. We would also have to believe that when Russ is trying to relay a message through Kasper that he is defying Horus' order to just destroy the Thousand Sons as well since it appears that Russ makes his decision there to rain hell on Prospero unless Mganus begs him to allow him to surrender.


I dunno, it happened whilst on route to Prospero and Horus is the voice of the Emperor in effect. Communication was bad at that time due to the disturbances in the warp and Russ wasn't to fond of Magnus and didn't need much convincing. The problem with Prospero Burns is that some key points are missing, the conversation between Russ and the Emperor and the message coming from Horus.

A Thousand Sons also has no mention of Russ being at the Emperors side when the message is received from Magnus.

Brother Ramses wrote:In this case, I just go with majority fluff ruling with my own twist;

The Emperor ordered Russ to sanction the Thousand Sons. He ordered the Custodes and Sisters of Silence in support of the Wolves, thereby by proxy showing his support. However he also ordered that if the Thousand Sons were to surrender instead, Russ was to accept that offer because having seen Magnus' reaction to what he had done upon the palace, he knew that the primarch was remorseful.


This would be the interpretation that I would also go with, he needed Magnus for the Golden Throne after all. I am not sure what the Emperors intentions were for the Thousand Sons themselves though.

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iproxtaco wrote:Their undying loyalty makes them do whatever The Emperor asks of them. Angron wasn't exactly loyal, and has little or no direction in his mercilessness. Russ does, he doesn't ask questions, the events on Prospero are evidence of this.


Yes and NO, While I completely agree Russ is loyal to the Emperor (because the Emperor thinks Russ is one of the his sons) I do NOT agree he will "do whatever he is told"... no I disagree. The very fact that he refuses to accept the Codex Astrates and runs by his own codex and plans is evident of that. Even after they tried to label him as a heretic.

Quote from the Lexicanum
The Space Wolves are known for their fiercely anti-authoritarian behavior. They strongly resist the central command structure of the Imperium, and refuse to follow the dictates of the Codex Astartes, which lays the structure and tactics to be used by all Space Marines. Their army has a strong Viking feel to them along with many wolf references and long drinking sessions, right down to their wolf-like teeth and heightened senses. They are very superstitious and only rarely make use of advanced technology used by other Chapters, such as teleportation.


Another Quote from Lexicanum
the Primarch (Russ) suddenly launched a furious attack. This very challenge proved to the Emperor that this was indeed one of his sons . Russ fighting with outstanding speed and power.


On the contrary iproxtaco, Space Wolves are fiercely independent and rebels that do what they want (which is why their chapter appeal to me). They may at times support and agree with the emperor out of loyalty; but, they hardly are his lap dogs. Russ still has a very intelligent and keen mind of his own. .

Another cool story about Space Wolves according to the lexicanum:
This lead to a battle that lasted a week or more, until finally Russ saw how immature their squabble was and started laughing. Lion El'Jonson (Dark Angels Primarch) took this as Russ mocking him and punched Leman Russ into unconsciousness before leaving the planet with his legion. This led to a bitter feud between the Legions (and subsequent Chapters), which lasts to this day - although recent events may finally have led to an end to the rivalry, though it is still customary for selected champions from both sides to engage in a (usually) non-lethal duel.

Not only show's Russ' fighting ability (lasted more than a week) but also his sudden and enlightened understanding of their actions. Lion El' Johnson jumped to a hasty conclusion and won with a dishonorable and p_ssy sucker punch while Leman Russ had his guard down because he realized the whole thing was immature.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/21 07:47:59


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Basically, what's more dangerous? A vicious trained attack dog, or a vicious rabid one?

For are animals for whatever it's worth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
KillThemAll wrote:Not only show's Russ' fighting ability (lasted more than a week) but also his sudden and enlightened understanding of their actions. Lion El' Johnson jumped to a hasty conclusion and won with a dishonorable and p_ssy sucker punch while Leman Russ had his guard down because he realized the whole thing was immature.

That is not the only time the Lion resorts to a "dishonorable and pussy sucker punch", as he did the same thing against the Night Haunter (except he gutted him with his sword). Of course, he still got his brains bashed in, so maybe fighting a week against the Lion is not a very impressive feat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. Burning wrote:But basically to sell books each legion/chapter is 'most pwoerful evar!' except for the Ultras, they are bestest - according to the BL.

That's because Ultras ARE the bestest. The and their successors probably best represent the Emperor's vision for the Astartes. Peerless warriors that follow orders to the letter, are not prone to battlefield excesses, and actually leave the worlds they conquer better than they found them.

moonshine wrote:Oh and who would win in a fight : Angron vs Russ ?

I would say probably Angron was the most dangerous in close combat of all the Primarchs, with the possible exceptions of Horus and Sanguinius. Curze considered Angron extremely dangerous, Curze whooped the Lion's ass, while the Lion fought Russ to a standstill.

DarknessEternal wrote:
So, Russ walked away completely uninjured, and Magnus was dead. You interpret this as Russ being "hopelessly out-classed"?

You've a strange perspective.

Um, if getting kicked around, scorched and electrocuted, having your heart punched out your back, and having both of your pet wolves that were backing you up pureed counts as "walking way completely uninjured", then yes, you are absolutely right.

If the old fluff about Russ dying when he left for the Warp is still accurate, then these are probably the wounds that did it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/21 14:23:15


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moonshine wrote:But I still do not get why Space wolves are described as the most dangerous legion.


13th Company wulfen...

Spoiler:


/thread

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/21 18:11:49


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KillThemAll wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Their undying loyalty makes them do whatever The Emperor asks of them. Angron wasn't exactly loyal, and has little or no direction in his mercilessness. Russ does, he doesn't ask questions, the events on Prospero are evidence of this.


Yes and NO, While I completely agree Russ is loyal to the Emperor (because the Emperor thinks Russ is one of the his sons) I do NOT agree he will "do whatever he is told"... no I disagree. The very fact that he refuses to accept the Codex Astrates and runs by his own codex and plans is evident of that. Even after they tried to label him as a heretic.

Who, exactly, tried to institute these changes and labelled him as a Heretic? It wasn't the Emperor if you want to know. It was Guilliman and his goonies. Dorn, even more loyal to his father railed against the reformists.

Quote from the Lexicanum
The Space Wolves are known for their fiercely anti-authoritarian behavior. They strongly resist the central command structure of the Imperium, and refuse to follow the dictates of the Codex Astartes, which lays the structure and tactics to be used by all Space Marines. Their army has a strong Viking feel to them along with many wolf references and long drinking sessions, right down to their wolf-like teeth and heightened senses. They are very superstitious and only rarely make use of advanced technology used by other Chapters, such as teleportation.

Again, notice this is not disobedience to the Emperor. It's disobedience to the Imperium's command structure, which is far from the Emperor's teachings.

Another Quote from Lexicanum
the Primarch (Russ) suddenly launched a furious attack. This very challenge proved to the Emperor that this was indeed one of his sons . Russ fighting with outstanding speed and power.


On the contrary iproxtaco, Space Wolves are fiercely independent and rebels that do what they want (which is why their chapter appeal to me). They may at times support and agree with the emperor out of loyalty; but, they hardly are his lap dogs. Russ still has a very intelligent and keen mind of his own.

Do you read what you quote? This was clearly before Russ knew this figure was his father. They're his lapdogs, destroying two brother Legions on his order.

Another cool story about Space Wolves according to the lexicanum:
This lead to a battle that lasted a week or more, until finally Russ saw how immature their squabble was and started laughing. Lion El'Jonson (Dark Angels Primarch) took this as Russ mocking him and punched Leman Russ into unconsciousness before leaving the planet with his legion. This led to a bitter feud between the Legions (and subsequent Chapters), which lasts to this day - although recent events may finally have led to an end to the rivalry, though it is still customary for selected champions from both sides to engage in a (usually) non-lethal duel.

Not only show's Russ' fighting ability (lasted more than a week) but also his sudden and enlightened understanding of their actions. Lion El' Johnson jumped to a hasty conclusion and won with a dishonorable and p_ssy sucker punch while Leman Russ had his guard down because he realized the whole thing was immature.

Russ started the fight. Not so enlightened now. I'm unsure as to which part of Lexicanum you're finding these quotes from. The article on The Lion has the duel lasting a day. This is pretty much a cop-out. The Lion punched Russ unconscious, he gave him what the deserved for starting the fight in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WARORK93 wrote:
moonshine wrote:But I still do not get why Space wolves are described as the most dangerous legion.


13th Company wulfen...

Spoiler:


/thread




Not so conclusive, is it?

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2011/07/21 20:58:49


Void_Dragon wrote:This thread has taken a turn for the delicious
 
   
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Russ was pissed because the Lion got his men killed. He didn't start it. If my men were killed because someone was just like "Hey eff it we'll leave them haning and come back in a little bit." I'd shove a powerfist up their arse.
   
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I'd like to know where you got that info from. The Dark Angels codex, maybe a bit biased, says something quite different.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/21 21:26:40


Void_Dragon wrote:This thread has taken a turn for the delicious
 
   
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iproxtaco wrote:
WARORK93 wrote:
moonshine wrote:But I still do not get why Space wolves are described as the most dangerous legion.


13th Company wulfen...

Spoiler:


/thread




Not so conclusive, is it?


Actually I think it is...the first pic is of a dead world eater at the feet of a space wolf while the second one is just Kharn clocking some civvies or something without power armor...

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Void_Dragon wrote:This thread has taken a turn for the delicious
 
   
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SwiftLord14 wrote:Russ was pissed because the Lion got his men killed. He didn't start it. If my men were killed because someone was just like "Hey eff it we'll leave them haning and come back in a little bit." I'd shove a powerfist up their arse.

<redacted for inaccuracy>

Also, Lexicanum is an extremely unreliable source. A lot of it is based on outdated fluff, is paraphrased, and can be extremely biased (as an example, try searching for the Inquisition War pages).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/21 22:05:48


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"Space wolves fighting along side the Dark Angels when suddenly without warning El'Johnson broke ranks. The Space Wolves flanks were unprotected and many warriors were slain when the enemy couter-attacked."

Page 91 of the SW codex

Not the lexicum my friend. Sounds like they were ALREADY fighting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/21 21:42:17


 
   
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iproxtaco wrote:I'd like to know where you got that info from. The Dark Angels codex, maybe a bit biased, says something quite different.


The Dark angels codex says Jhonson had a very good assult plan all laid out but Russ flew into a rage and charged the fortress whilst the dark angels stuck to the plan. If the spcae wolves had of stuck to the good plan the Jhonson made then they would have come of much better.
   
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This is turning into personal preference of which Chapter you like. You says it says something different (from the Dark Angels codex) im reading what it says in the SW codex. This is going no where.

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iproxtaco wrote:


Hate to be the bearer of bad news but both the SWs in that picture are very much still alive and appear to have the upper hand considering one just pulled the other off his mount...

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The Lion had a carefully laid plan. Russ destroyed it because the leader of his enemy offended him. The Lion obviously got some of Russ's men killed. For a reason. Russ, in his anger, attached The Lion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WARORK93 wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:


Hate to be the bearer of bad news but both the SWs in that picture are very much still alive and appear to have the upper hand considering one just pulled the other off his mount...


Why is he on the ground in the first place? Yeah, this isn't over.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/21 21:50:53


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Because he's pulling him to the ground. Even my blind cousin can see that.
   
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The Space Wolf is on his ass, without a backpack. He's obviously been knocked down. Even my Blind Donkey can see that.

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SwiftLord14 wrote: "Space wolves fighting along side the Dark Angels when suddenly without warning El'Johnson broke ranks. The Space Wolves flanks were unprotected and many warriors were slain when the enemy couter-attacked."

Page 91 of the SW codex

Not the lexicum my friend. Sounds like they were ALREADY fighting.


Both accounts are prefaced as legends, so neither is reliable. For the record, this is what it says in Codex Dark Angels, p 20:
It was on the world of Dulan where the Space Wolves were fighting alongside the Dark Angels that matters came to a head. The Tyrant Durath had personally insulted the Emperor, sacrificing thousands of Imperial priests to his patron Daemon, and both Russ and Jonson desired the honour of slaying this heretic. The headstrong Primarch of the Space Wolves flew into a rage when Durath proclaimed that Russ was the Emperor's lap dog and would be fed to his pet grox [lulz].

Russ swore that he would cut Durath's head from his shoulders and demanded that the Dark Angels allow him to lead his Space Wolves in an immediate assault upon the Tyrant's Crimson Fortress. Jonson had spent days scouting the weak points of the fortress, meticulously planning the attack and was not about to let some hot-headed barbarian ruin his carefully laid plans. He refused Russ's demand and began the assault, storming the fortress with remarkably few casualties.

Russ, caught in a swirling combat at the base of the wall, could only howl in anger as he watched Jonson slay Durath high on the walls of the keep.


So from the Dark Angels description, it sounds like the typical Russ: headstrong, impulsive, and ever eager to get in a fight with his siblings. Maybe the Emperor should have skipped the leash, and gone straight to the choke-collar.

Of course, from the Space Wolves description, we get the typical Lion: treacherous and only concerned with his own glory.

Both of these Primarchs are bottom of the barrel.

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So you are basing you opinion on a picture that could be debatable until the world ends?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd believe the Dark Angles stroy better if they didn't do that SAME thing in the Second Space Wolf Omnibus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/21 22:03:24


 
   
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If I remember correctly about how good russ was that when he was fighting Magnus he happened to stumble on the battle field and there in that moment Garm helped him by hurting magnus with the spearing thus allowing Russ to then thoroughly kick the crap out of Magnus.

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SwiftLord14 wrote: "Space wolves fighting along side the Dark Angels when suddenly without warning El'Johnson broke ranks. The Space Wolves flanks were unprotected and many warriors were slain when the enemy couter-attacked."

Page 91 of the SW codex

Not the lexicum my friend. Sounds like they were ALREADY fighting.


Here here! Swiflord ! good find !

Russ didn't start "the fight" Russ held Lion accountable for his poor decision and risking Russ' men. If I were Russ I'd pop Lion one too if his decisions got my men killed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Omegus wrote:
SwiftLord14 wrote: "Space wolves fighting along side the Dark Angels when suddenly without warning El'Johnson broke ranks. The Space Wolves flanks were unprotected and many warriors were slain when the enemy couter-attacked."

Page 91 of the SW codex

Not the lexicum my friend. Sounds like they were ALREADY fighting.


Both accounts are prefaced as legends, so neither is reliable. For the record, this is what it says in Codex Dark Angels, p 20:
It was on the world of Dulan where the Space Wolves were fighting alongside the Dark Angels that matters came to a head. The Tyrant Durath had personally insulted the Emperor, sacrificing thousands of Imperial priests to his patron Daemon, and both Russ and Jonson desired the honour of slaying this heretic. The headstrong Primarch of the Space Wolves flew into a rage when Durath proclaimed that Russ was the Emperor's lap dog and would be fed to his pet grox [lulz].

Russ swore that he would cut Durath's head from his shoulders and demanded that the Dark Angels allow him to lead his Space Wolves in an immediate assault upon the Tyrant's Crimson Fortress. Jonson had spent days scouting the weak points of the fortress, meticulously planning the attack and was not about to let some hot-headed barbarian ruin his carefully laid plans. He refused Russ's demand and began the assault, storming the fortress with remarkably few casualties.

Russ, caught in a swirling combat at the base of the wall, could only howl in anger as he watched Jonson slay Durath high on the walls of the keep.


So from the Dark Angels description, it sounds like the typical Russ: headstrong, impulsive, and ever eager to get in a fight with his siblings. Maybe the Emperor should have skipped the leash, and gone straight to the choke-collar.

Of course, from the Space Wolves description, we get the typical Lion: treacherous and only concerned with his own glory.

Both of these Primarchs are bottom of the barrel.


So according to the Dark Angels own codex LION first....
1. scoffed at his skills and looked down their noses at the "barbarians"
2. Rather than let Russ defend/prove himself agains Durath's slander honorably (by pushing the attack and wining) .... the Lion tried to beat him to the punch to look like the hero ( disshonorable again) and
3. thus broke rank and got Russ' men killed...

Yeah if Lion got in my way of letting me prove my defend my honor and got a bunch of my men killed. I'd pop Lion in the mouth too or a lot worse. Russ may have punched first but according to that Dark Angels own codex Lion deserved it.

And the fact that after all that the lion still "realized how silly it was" YES iproxtaco I stand by my words "enlightened" ...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Russ didn't start crap ! he tried to finish it.
But again his greater wisdom got the best of him and when he lowered his gaurd in laughter Lion sucker punched.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and BTW Grey Elder... "he meant to do that" all apart of the plan ! lolz

Automatically Appended Next Post:
PSSSSSSS>
Although a long time 40k Video game fan (played the original Space hulks Gene Stealers game for the NES in 1996) I am new to the table top and 40k lore. So I may not be versed enough i admit that .. .but I will say from first read it seems kind a sad and wrong that Russ shows loyalty to the Emperor (his father) and gets called "a lap dog" probably from a jealous man as well. Then on top of that .. his own brother views him as a barbarian and gets in Russ' way of proving his honor and on top of that gets Russ' men killed. Well how would you like to be raised by wolfs. Not as fun as your cushy shelterd palace there "LION". I don't know the lion's story on how he grew up but I bet Russ had it rougher being found in the woods raised by wolfs (sounds Roman/Romulus Ramus to me ). .. IDK imo poor old Russ is getting the bone and kicked around "like a dog" more than he deserves. I think people fail to see his true power and intellegence just because of his rough exterior and unpolished nature... To me that doesn't make him any less cuning or intellegent. Infact, to me that makes the Lion and others less intellegent for jumping to conclusions and underestemating someone based on apperances. Also, Sounds like Lion is a jealous brother and along with others won't give the Dog his due .. peace thanks all for replies I"m learning more and more and community is fun and great peace.

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2011/07/22 03:42:01


"Kill the Xenos"

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The Lion grew up completely alone in a jungle full of daemon beasts, arguably far more dangerous than hanging out with a pack of friendly apex predators.

KillThemAll wrote:
Russ didn't start crap ! he tried to finish it.
But again his greater wisdom got the best of him and when he lowered his gaurd in laughter Lion sucker punched.

He attacked a fellow Primarch. As much as I dislike the Lion, he's not beholden to abandon his long-established strategy because Russ feels he has something to prove. Generals may disagree, they don't start picking fights over it. If anything, Russ proved himself a barbarian that day... all that crap in Prospero Burns about him "pretending" to be a savage is apparently just that, a bunch of crap.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/22 05:34:08


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Really it depends on who you think is cooler.

Honestly, I think the Space Wolves and the World Eaters, are equal, man to man, regardless of fluff. The one thing we have to keep in mind is that no such competition has taken place. This entire thread is personal preference really.

But, and just because, WORLD EATERS FTW!

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found this in the Space Wolves Codex.... sheds some more plausable light on Lions' decision to "break rank". Comes straight from SW codex page 91... IT says "suddenly and without warning, El'Jonson broke ranks and led his DA's into the attack against the tyrant's fortress. The Space Woves found their flank unprotected and many warriors were slain when the enemy counter attacked."

IDK .. you can spin it either way but sounds to me like Lion's direct actions to be greedy and get their first to "grab the glory" (as you put it above in a post Omegus) betrayed fellow space marines and cost lifes, a selfish and costly decision at the expense of the spacewolves and a "fellow Primarch" FIRST. Indeed, what if Russ himself had been killed. How would the Emperor look at Lion's rash decision to break rank and grab the glory at the expense of his "fellow Primarch" then... As I said and still stand by, Russ didn't start it or betray Lion like that, he simply gave the lion his consequences for his actions. And rightly so IMO. In todays modern army, I would wager that, that action would not be seen glorious at all... Russ himself could have been lost/killed. I wouldn't want the Lion in or anywhere near my army FO SHO!

BUT I do see your point how either chapter has their own viewpoint and it can go back and forth till the end of time. ..
Here it is anyways.

Ps .. is that the identical passage you found Omegus ? sorry if it is... it's 2am, too late time for bed

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/07/22 06:21:00


"Kill the Xenos"

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The way I read it from both accounts is that the Dark Angels stuck to the agreed upon plan while the wolves went charging across open field to get to the enemy. The wolves blame the Angels for not holding their hands along the way and the wolves suffer for it.

Imagine this if you will. Has anyone ever told you how to best do something? You ignored the advice and throw a temper tantrem when it didn't work out? That's what Russ did. Threw a tantrem because he broke from the plan.

 
   
 
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