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although removed, it lives on as a physible.

other than that, i disagree, but hey we're not here for that

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
This an excellent example of how good 3D printing is

http://www.moddler.com/portfolio

Browse the gallery, have fun

Those models look great because there was significant post printing work done on them. Aka, sanding and filing. If you get frustrated at mold lines on a model, stay away from 3D prints. Per the moddler.com's own page:
Our process is very fast, especially when compared to traditional clay sculpting. Smaller models can be printed in a few hours. Large models can be printed in a day. Cleanup can take a few hours or a few days depending on model complexity. Most models can be turned around in 24 hours.

Also for Color 3D prints, those have been around for years. www.figureprints.com was the first major commercial one I knew of and cashed in on the WoW craze. Made it to Blizzcon 3-4 years ago and they were handing out key chains as samples. They felt like medium grit sand paper. Worse, the colors don't stay. Found that keychain this summer when moving, colors had bleached out considerably.

With the Form1 kickstarter, thought that the mass market 3D printing day of reckoning had come. At least until 3DSystems sued them for patent infringement. The patent they are pointing has another 5 years on it in the US. With how messed up the US patent system is these days, I don't see high detail mass market printers coming out till the end of the decade :(

silent25 wrote:
With how messed up the US patent system is these days, I don't see high detail mass market printers coming out till the end of the decade :(

Or last spring:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/b9creations/b9creator-a-high-resolution-3d-printer

The resolution is quite high, and unlike a lot of the different methods to do 3D printing - their particular method is stupid simple with very few moving parts and components that you can probably get replacements for locally.

nkelsch wrote:

 vim_the_good wrote:
Just saw this and thought I would add it into the discussion
http://www.makerbot.com/blog/tag/warhammer/

And it has already been crushed and removed from the 'thingverse' as infringement.

3D printing isn't going to make copyrights go away. A 3D Model of a copyrighted model is still derivative works.

I agree but we both know it's not too hard to find a pirated codex or whatever you want on the tinternet

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

silent25 wrote:
With how messed up the US patent system is these days, I don't see high detail mass market printers coming out till the end of the decade :(

Or last spring:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/b9creations/b9creator-a-high-resolution-3d-printer

The resolution is quite high, and unlike a lot of the different methods to do 3D printing - their particular method is stupid simple with very few moving parts and components that you can probably get replacements for locally.

That one didn't have as high a resolution as the Form1. That had a minimum resolution 50 micron, form1 had 25 micron. A number of pictures being tossed around are from the Form1 kickstarter. Plus, I was referring to cheaper units being held up because of patents, old patents, not technology or cost of manufacturing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vim_the_good wrote:



I agree but we both know it's not too hard to find a pirated codex or whatever you want on the tinternet

Big difference between creating a 3D model and cutting off the binding of a codex and running through the multifeed of the copier at work. The freeloaders of the world will require a lot more effort from those that make this material available.

silent25 wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

silent25 wrote:
With how messed up the US patent system is these days, I don't see high detail mass market printers coming out till the end of the decade :(

Or last spring:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/b9creations/b9creator-a-high-resolution-3d-printer

The resolution is quite high, and unlike a lot of the different methods to do 3D printing - their particular method is stupid simple with very few moving parts and components that you can probably get replacements for locally.

That one didn't have as high a resolution as the Form1. That had a minimum resolution 50 micron, form1 had 25 micron. A number of pictures being tossed around are from the Form1 kickstarter. Plus, I was referring to cheaper units being held up because of patents, old patents, not technology or cost of manufacturing.

That is the beauty of its simplicity though - you could quite reasonably increase the resolution of it beyond the current specifications. The Z limit would be whatever the viscosity of the liquid resin requires - which based on some quick calculations would be 5 microns. The X-Y limit is based on the projected image. I have taken a look at a few different high resolution projectors which should allow for roughly 10 micron X-Y resolution.

Once I clear some other things off my plate, I plan on picking up a B9 or two in order to see how far the theory can be pushed.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

silent25 wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

silent25 wrote:
With how messed up the US patent system is these days, I don't see high detail mass market printers coming out till the end of the decade :(

Or last spring:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/b9creations/b9creator-a-high-resolution-3d-printer

The resolution is quite high, and unlike a lot of the different methods to do 3D printing - their particular method is stupid simple with very few moving parts and components that you can probably get replacements for locally.

That one didn't have as high a resolution as the Form1. That had a minimum resolution 50 micron, form1 had 25 micron. A number of pictures being tossed around are from the Form1 kickstarter. Plus, I was referring to cheaper units being held up because of patents, old patents, not technology or cost of manufacturing.

That is the beauty of its simplicity though - you could quite reasonably increase the resolution of it beyond the current specifications. The Z limit would be whatever the viscosity of the liquid resin requires - which based on some quick calculations would be 5 microns. The X-Y limit is based on the projected image. I have taken a look at a few different high resolution projectors which should allow for roughly 10 micron X-Y resolution.

Once I clear some other things off my plate, I plan on picking up a B9 or two in order to see how far the theory can be pushed.

Uh, that b9creator printer is making my head spin, the .. seriously. the engineering that went into it is so way ahead of everything else, no blackboxing, KISS-philosophy (yeah, I know I for one would never ever have gotten the idea to use a DLP for that purpose haha) and well.. Resin is cheap.

Yep - doesn't get much simpler.

See through pan which holds a UV cured resin. Projector under the pan. Simple stepping motor to raise the work platform up out of the pan.

Flash an image, move up, flash an image, move up...repeat until the object is complete. No lasers to focus, no complicated XYZ movements, no vector conversions. It cures an entire level in a single go.

Granted, there are some limitations to the design - but they are the same limitations which you tend to find on all the other methods of 3D printing (support struts and what not).

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Yep - doesn't get much simpler.

See through pan which holds a UV cured resin. Projector under the pan. Simple stepping motor to raise the work platform up out of the pan.

Flash an image, move up, flash an image, move up...repeat until the object is complete. No lasers to focus, no complicated XYZ movements, no vector conversions. It cures an entire level in a single go.

Granted, there are some limitations to the design - but they are the same limitations which you tend to find on all the other methods of 3D printing (support struts and what not).

yeah pretty much. makes the reprap design seem overengineered

Some interesting stats from that B9 Creator:
10c per gram for resin
and ~10-20mm per hour per print. Speed depends on z resolution only, not on amount of material used per layer.

The changes to the print area as you increase resolution means that for this printer, you'd be struggling to print more than one space-marine sized model at a time (2" x 1.5" print area). Taking >3 hours per print at high resolution, plus time for washing and cleanup (cleanup shown using isopropyl alcohol). Weight of a plastic marine is ~2 grams plus supports, so lets say 30c per print.

It is actually 8.4 cents per gram (plus shipping). That ends up being roughly 9.5 cents per cubic centimeter. When you figure that a miniature is around 1-2 cubic centimeters...that isn't bad at all.

An Objet24 prints at roughly 17 mm per hour at 50% area per layer as well - and its speed is based both on the Z resolution and the area of each layer that needs to be cured.

With the B9 - the build speed isn't actually a linear progression. If you double the Z resolution, you don't double the build time. Each layer is cured with UV light from the projected image. Thinner layers actually cure faster than thick layers - though you will have more of them.

The size is small - but large enough for what I would be doing. Most things I would be printing would be one at a time. Anything that I need more than that - I would print...clean...cast.

Remember - the 2-3 hours to print isn't time that you will spend with it. I'd likely use it like I do a couple of my other automated tools. Load up a job, hit go, go mow the lawn or do something else. Come back in a couple of hours and see what happened.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

silent25 wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

silent25 wrote:
With how messed up the US patent system is these days, I don't see high detail mass market printers coming out till the end of the decade :(

Or last spring:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/b9creations/b9creator-a-high-resolution-3d-printer

The resolution is quite high, and unlike a lot of the different methods to do 3D printing - their particular method is stupid simple with very few moving parts and components that you can probably get replacements for locally.

That one didn't have as high a resolution as the Form1. That had a minimum resolution 50 micron, form1 had 25 micron. A number of pictures being tossed around are from the Form1 kickstarter. Plus, I was referring to cheaper units being held up because of patents, old patents, not technology or cost of manufacturing.

That is the beauty of its simplicity though - you could quite reasonably increase the resolution of it beyond the current specifications. The Z limit would be whatever the viscosity of the liquid resin requires - which based on some quick calculations would be 5 microns. The X-Y limit is based on the projected image. I have taken a look at a few different high resolution projectors which should allow for roughly 10 micron X-Y resolution.

Once I clear some other things off my plate, I plan on picking up a B9 or two in order to see how far the theory can be pushed.

I stand corrected then. I had seen that kickstarter previously, but the displayed images still seemed pretty jagged in layering. Checking out some of the pictures in the forum, the stuff looks better.


The layers are still noticeable though. Would like to see figs with the minimum setting.

About the only printers that I have seen which do not have noticeable (to the naked eye) layering have been some of the higher end wax printers which are used by custom jewelers. The rest of them have layers which you can see and will need cleaning up.

That being the case - cleaning up a 10 micron layer or a 20 micron layer...both require comparable amounts of effort. The only ones which really have been a bigger pain to clean up are the ones like Makerbot which print with filaments.

Granted over 100 microns becomes a PITA again as the amount of clean up needed often removes any surface detailing which might have been part of the model. Also, once you get down below 5 microns - you can often clean up simply by coating the model with a product like Mr. Surfacer 500.

What are some of the 3d Printers being used for companies already in the 3D master/printing business. For example, Raging Heroes and some of the bit makers do a great job of moving from 3D sculpt to 3D master and then to production resin/metal.

What do they use?

Some of the more common ones used are those by Objet. Pricey, and the resin they spit out is really soft, but great detail and perfect for casting in resin or metal.

First things first, 3d printing (especially home printers) cannot yet approach the level of detail that GW can achieve with injection molding. Nobody is debating that. But there is a significant corner of the market for people who enjoy the gaming side of 40k more than the modeling side. Hence the uncounted legions of the Grey Marines. currently 3d printing is sufficient for those of us who like the tactics and game play and who really don't care if they ever get a golden demon. A few years ago I got a beta printrbot jr. for $250. since then I've been able to produce minis everywhere from lousy to decent quality through home additions to the printer. Recently I made a dark angels force.





and no, the detail on these isn't great, (I'm not a great painter anyway) but for most people it is acceptable.


So, in summary I don't think printing will be any threat to the "elite" market GW wants to tailor to ($25 for a 55 point mini. Really gw? centurions suck anyway) but I do think it will make the hobby more accessible to the more traditional "wargamers".

Wow, impressive to see a whole printed army painted up for once. Certainly shows that we have reached the point where this is a sustainable option. Where did you get the 3D sculpts from for the centurions if you dont mind me asking?

While it seems novel, one thing that his post is blatant IP theft.

I can appreciate wanting to play for less cost, but you do have to realize that game companies need to sell something to keep making those games that you enjoy. Something being more accessible isn't the same as being sustainable.

I hope that you at least bought the rulebook.

It may seem like GW is some big evil thing that it's okay to rip off, the reality of it is that you aren't entitled to play anything from them even if you don't like their business practices. After all, it cost money to hire artists to design the models that you're using the look of. The writing for guys like Dark Angels also costs money.

What's worse, using this to essentially play without paying for other games that could use the money more than GW.

The worst thing is if you go to a game store or local club event at a store expecting to get table space to play on, when you did nothing to support the store or community with.

There will be some way in the future for companies to use 3D printing to fund new model designs and games, but if you really want to play something and pay less to do it, consider just playing other games with cheaper costs. Because right now, you're not helping this 3D printing revolution forward, you're just using it to bypass legitimate business.

Huh. Touchy subject. Yes. I bought the rule book, all of them actually. I've been playing since the rogue trader days. I've been proudly supporting this hobby since the before landraiders cost $10 and came two in a box. I rembember bug hunts. When gw released the first Tyranids book but had no models. I have seen this hobby grow from a bunch of nerds using Avalon hill models and army men for imperial guard to the insanely overpriced system it is today.
I know this game. And it can survive having more players. It can survive an inevitable change in technology.

And as far as IP goes, technically GW has no legal prescient to enforce any IP violations with more than a 6% structure deviation. (It's the only law that kept Ridley Scott from putting them out of business a decade ago.)

And a point about people who are devoted enough buy a 3d printer in order to design, make, build and paint their own minis. There is no way in HELL we are NOT supporting our local gaming store.

The real question is, should it survive?

You're using this tech as a stopgap in your own addiction to help further a system that should have collapsed under its own weight and sent people to other games.

And just because you played during rogue trader days doesn't really entitle you to the newer models, because real money and time was spent making the newer, better looking models.

I mean, there is a reason why you're not still using your older models or the older crappy artwork.

As far as IP goes, sure, there may be no legal recourse in this matter. But let's be honest here, those are Dark Angel copies that you're paying a thing to the people who actually created them.

Eventually, there will be a way that the people who make these games to properly profit, and gamers to benefit from the tech to create a miniature utopia, but using it in this way right now doesn't help anyone, not even yourself, in the long run.

Kinda missing the point. Nothing entitles me to the new models. I don't WANT the newer models. That's why I designed, programmed, and built MY OWN models.
Yes, someone designed dark angels first. I bought them. I bought three different editions for rules about them I have fully patronized games workshop to for a long time. That's what I meant by my long time appreciation of GW products.
I no longer think much of their new lineup, so I'm making models, from MY computer, on MY printer for MY use. I appreciate their time and effort and have payed for it for years, but no longer see the need to do so. If it makes you feel any better, think of it as scratchbuilt. You know, the thing the hobby was built on.

Wait, you're on dakkadakka and you want gw to collapse? Odd.

The detail is definitely there for 3D Printing to be better than what game companies produce. A lot of masters are created from 3D printed. The issue isn't detail but the type of printer and process being used.

The difference between something printed from a Makerbot vs something printed from a production printer is about $100,000+. There is also a higher cost in the materials that is used when you compare Makerbot PLA to say resin or other higher temperature plastic. Depending on if the printer DLP or SLA, and if it is a dissolvable support structure, there will be cleanup needed on it. The cheaper you go, the more cleanup you have to do. The more expensive you go, the least cleanup and prep you need with the miniature.

Although 3D printing can bring some great new things to war gaming. I see it being more beneficial with terrain before it is with miniatures. You can do it with miniatures, but no one really wants to pay $40-75 for a production miniature, when you can buy them for cheaper.

Holy thread necromancy batman!

IKR? I just found it linked in anther forum, read it and thought I'd add my 2 cents. I didn't realize it was so old until after.