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2013/01/21 22:47:09
Subject: 1750 Tournament - Double-Trouble Chaos Dynamic Duo! (1st Game Up on p.2)
I don't see the debate, it suffered an immobilised hit, but lets not derail Jy's thread with that, which is quite a small misread, as he would have won either way. Congrats again.
Eldercaveman wrote: Awesome game, got to love the under dog army. Did you find many of your opponents under estimating this list?
Also I don't think the helldrake could have scored, doesn't it say vehicles count as long as they aren't immobilised?
Good catch! Thanks. I was not aware of that.
I've gone back and edited my battle report to reflect this.
I apologize for some of the mistakes made in these games, but they happen, both with me and my opponents. Fortunately, the mistakes made didn't really have a huge effect in any of my games.
Bugs_N_Orks wrote: Cue debate on whether Locked Velocity is the same as being Immobilized...
That one went pretty much like I expected but with you taking a fair bit less damage due to his piece-meal attack strategy. I also probably would have saved the spawn for transport smashing after the DKs were occupied, Modrak kills spawn as easily as zombies (and he's got a pile of attacks), but your strategy worked out pretty well too haha.
What's the mission for the second game? I feel like he's got a pretty decent answer for most of what's in your list, but his scoring (and denial) units are weak and not very mobile.
Although I play RAW just like everyone else, I'm not a rules-lawyer. In this case, it was pretty obvious what the intent of the authors was, even though the wording could have easily been exploited. But that's not me. I'd rather give my opponent the benefit of the doubt unless I feel that he is trying to exploit the rules.
In any case, it's no biggie as it didn't have any effect on the game whatsoever.
I was aware of how big and bad Mordrak was. That was why I also charged with the zombies...to try to lock him up and force him to deal with the zombies. Unfortunately, my pile-in moves later on brought my spawn into base contact with him, but it was a sacrifice I was willing to make to lock him down. The way I look at it is this....if I had ignored him (Mordrak) with the spawns and sent them after the tanks instead, then he would have probably sent 1 dreadknight over to intercept them and a dreadknight with nemesis greatsword is much more deadly than Mordrak.
For the second game against Kingsley, we played Emperor's Will (yeesh!) with Hammer & Anvil deployment (double-yeesh!!).
Eldercaveman wrote: Awesome game, got to love the under dog army. Did you find many of your opponents under estimating this list?
Also I don't think the helldrake could have scored, doesn't it say vehicles count as long as they aren't immobilised?
Good catch! Thanks. I was not aware of that.
I've gone back and edited my battle report to reflect this.
I apologize for some of the mistakes made in these games, but they happen, both with me and my opponents. Fortunately, the mistakes made didn't really have a huge effect in any of my games.
Well you could consider that mistake as a balancing act, as it should have never been immobilised anyway because IBEY shouldn't have been used.
Although I play RAW just like everyone else, I'm not a rules-lawyer. In this case, it was pretty obvious what the intent of the authors was, even though the wording could have easily been exploited. But that's not me. I'd rather give my opponent the benefit of the doubt unless I feel that he is trying to exploit the rules.
In any case, it's no biggie as it didn't have any effect on the game whatsoever.
You will always get people who try to bend the rules or interpret them in a way that fits them best, rather than looking at things logically. Your way is the best way, and more gamers should play with that mentality.
For the second game against Kingsley, we played Emperor's Will (yeesh!) with Hammer & Anvil deployment (double-yeesh!!).
IDK, kingsly is a good player and that mission is greatly favoring him. Oblits and the duo are going to DS I'll assume, if he can get a decent drop and survive until his next turn he may get just get but without this strategy I see little hope ha ha. I will also assume Kingsly was prepared for this move.
Red Corsair wrote: IDK, kingsly is a good player and that mission is greatly favoring him. Oblits and the duo are going to DS I'll assume, if he can get a decent drop and survive until his next turn he may get just get but without this strategy I see little hope ha ha. I will also assume Kingsly was prepared for this move.
I would guess that he'd at least DS Abby and the Oblits. Two significant factors in how successful that will/would be are how well Kingsley blocked off/screened his objective (making DSing near it risky), and whether Abby successfully tanked a couple of railgun shots off his 4++.
I could see Typhus staying home to anchor the zombies and defend home base. Terrain should have been a big deal, too; if the zombies could get cover saves against all of Kingsley's S4-S6 shooting, they could hold out and hold onto their objective a lot longer.
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Red Corsair wrote: IDK, kingsly is a good player and that mission is greatly favoring him. Oblits and the duo are going to DS I'll assume, if he can get a decent drop and survive until his next turn he may get just get but without this strategy I see little hope ha ha. I will also assume Kingsly was prepared for this move.
I would guess that he'd at least DS Abby and the Oblits. Two significant factors in how successful that will/would be are how well Kingsley blocked off/screened his objective (making DSing near it risky), and whether Abby successfully tanked a couple of railgun shots off his 4++.
I could see Typhus staying home to anchor the zombies and defend home base. Terrain should have been a big deal, too; if the zombies could get cover saves against all of Kingsley's S4-S6 shooting, they could hold out and hold onto their objective a lot longer.
That was my thinking, but honestly after seeing Kingslys list I imagine most of his offense will come from the storm talons and possible a tac squad, I think typhus may not be needed back home given just how many zombies are there but also because he really doesn't help them there against the marine tau units which are not geared for assault at all and he can't touch the fliers. I agree that it would be more conservative and he probably will leave Typhus back but given the flavor of his list I think I would send both characters into the thick of things. I am aggressive though and would be banking on such a maneuver to force his hand and keep the major conflict on his objective not mine. I mean Typhus really does nothing for the zombies in this match, yet he can split off from the oblits making the 2 DS units into possibly 4 with abby. Either way I figure reserve rolls will be the major factor as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/22 05:35:26
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: Yeesh! Emperor's Will and Hammer and Anvil - probably the 2 worst mission/deployment combo that I can get. I lack both the mobility to get to my opponent's objective as well as the shooting to do any significant damage to his army. On the other hand, my opponent also lacks the mobility to get to my objective nor the resiliency to contest it. He also lacks the shooting to really do any significant damage to my army as well....with the exception of broadsides and vindicators against my oblits. Overall, this is not a good mission for me and my army is a terrible matchup for my opponent. Because in the Emperor's Will, I do not need to advance my zombies towards his objective and he does not have the firepower to shoot that many zombies off of mine. It will come down to my deepstriking obliterators (most likely with Abaddon), chaos spawns and helturkey to make a play for his objective. How well I do will depend on how well he can defend his objective.
The key to a victory here IMO is whoever gets First Blood will most likely be the victor. I can't stress enough how important First Blood is in this mission (and the Relic). In that regards, I may have a slight advantage. His rhinos and vehicles are much, much easier to kill than any of my units. If I can get First Blood, then I will almost guarantee myself the victory.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/01/22 13:39:52
No worries re: Abaddon, man-- it was a great game anyway! Perhaps we'll play again some other time and hash that out.
Pre-Game Thoughts:
This is a terrible mission and deployment combination for both armies! I will not be able to take jy2's objective thanks to his large number of zombies just standing; he will not be able to meaningfully attack my objective with his zombies either thanks to Slow and Purposeful and his large number of shooting units.
I suspect this game will come down to First Blood. Unfortunately, I have Rhinos and jy2 doesn't. Hopefully I will be able go second and deploy reactively to hide my Rhinos and attack jy2's Obliterators. They are both the most dangerous unit for claiming First Blood and the most vulnerable units to my Broadside Battlesuits. Also, going second will let me potentially shoot the Whirlwind into his Zombies on the objective and then teleport my Librarian into the hole created to contest-- a risky but potentially game-winning move.
If I concede First Blood, I will need to attack extremely aggressively and attempt to throw all my infantry into jy2's zone to take Linebreaker or potentially contest the objective. This will be a low chance to win, but I will have to go for it. Hopefully, First Blood will be on my side and jy2 will be the one having to make a risky attack... but I think jy2 has better odds of doing this than I do. We'll see how it plays out...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/22 08:26:06
2013/01/22 13:42:27
Subject: Re:1750 Tournament - Double-Trouble Chaos Dynamic Duo! (1st Game Up on p.2)
His librarian keeps his original powers (Gate of Infinity and Null Zone). For his Warlord trait, he gets a scoring Warlord.
He puts his broadsides in the bastion and his objective right behind it. Storm Talons in reserves.
My deployment. All my zombies start off on the board and spread out. Typhus joins one of the large block of zombies.
Reserves include Abaddon with 1 unit of oblits (to be deepstriking in) and the heldrake.
Here I make a mistake and nominate Typhus as my Warlord. It wasn't until after the tournament that I find out that Abaddon has to be the Warlord. So to my opponent, I apologize for my mistake.
Marines advance. My opponent combat squads his tacticals and some (lascannons) disembark.
In shooting, my opponent is able to shoot down 2 spawns and a total of 6 zombies from 2 different units. I think I surprised him with the resiliency of my zombies, especially with their FNP saves.
Chaos 1
Spoiler:
In what would be a major mistake on my part, I advance my chaos spawn. Apparently, either I didn't respect my opponent's shooting enough or I was just too confident in my oblits getting First Blood.
In any case, my oblits fire at his rhino and he makes both cover saves against my shots.
Space Marines/Tau 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2.
1 storm talon comes in. Left fire warriors advance in order to get into double-tap rapid-fire range of my spawns.
The rest of his army moves.
He then focuses the shooting of his entire army into my chaos spawns and wipes them out! Oh crap....I just gave my opponent First Blood. Yup, handed it to him gift-wrapped and on a silver platter. And maybe the game as well....
Chaos 2
Spoiler:
My helturkey comes in. Abaddon and oblits, however, don't. The rest of my guys shuffle around.
My evil birdy incinerates 8 fire warriors. I believe they then fail morale and fall back.
My oblits fail to do any damage with their shooting.
Space Marines/Tau 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3. His other talon doesn't come in yet.
Storm talon flies past my heldrake to get shots into its rear.
Marines make their move. This is when he starts scrambling his marines back towards his objective.
His librarian casts Null Zone.
Shooting (by a vindicator) only manages to kill 1 oblit.
His talon fires at my heldrake and I opt to evade (due to Null Zone). 1 shot goes through - either a stun or shaken - which I ignore.
Finally, he kills some more zombies (I did not mention it, but every turn he would fire at and kill some zombies, though not a whole lot).
Chaos 3
Spoiler:
Abaddon and oblits come in. However, I do a really risky deepstrike near his objective. I basically need a direct hit or I will be in trouble. They then scatter and mishap, but fortunately, they only go back into reserves.
Heldrake vector strikes a vindicator but does nothing. It then flies off the board with its flat-out move because it could not shoot this turn (due to evading last turn).
My army shambles on. Oblits go after his storm talon.
I only manage to cause 1 HP of damage with twin-linked plasmas.
Space Marines/Tau 4
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 4.
His guys make a mad dash back to protect his objective....and they do a good job.
They then run to make my life even harder!
Shooting doesn't do much other than to kill some more zombies....but that doesn't really matter. The only thing that matters is to protect his objective.
Chaos 4
Spoiler:
This time, Abaddon lands true.
Helturkey also comes in.
More non-important movement from my shambling horde. Oblits decide to f-up his vindicator. They do nothing to it.
Oblits fire twin-linked plasmas into the rear and blow up the whirlwind.
Dragon flames and kills 4 fire warriors.
Space Marines/Tau 5
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 5.
His talon moves to get a rear shot on my helturkey.
All his guys make a mad dash to protect his objective. He screens out Abaddon with 2 combat squads. Both units of fire warriors go back to help. Storm talon goes into its special Hover mode (making it BS5).
Fortunately for me, his vindicator has no shot really (it can only barely see 1 oblit so that will be all that it can kill).
Librarian casts Null Zone.
His talon fires at my turkey. I take a gamble and choose not to Evade because I will need its offense to clear some of those screening marines. He then blows it away.
Kingsley runs both combat squads and the 4-man fire warrior squad to screen me out.
Whatever guns can fire do. I absorb everything. Abaddon makes his invuln's and the re-rolls due to Null Zone against his broadsides. In the end, he only manages to cause 1W to an oblit (passed on from Abaddon with Look-Out-Sirs!).
And kill an oblit.
Chaos 5
Spoiler:
Abaddon splits off from the oblits.
My "other" movement...not that it really matters.
However, for a moral victory, I shoot down that annoying little storm talon.
In shooting, I kill a total of 5 marines with heavy flamers from the oblits.
My opponent, the sneaky git that he is, then auto-fails his morale and both combat squads run off the board, thus denying me the opportunity to get closer to his objective with an assault and consolidation! Noooooooo........
We roll to see if the game continues and.....
Space Marines/Tau 6
Spoiler:
Fortunately for me, there will be at least 1 more turn.
Shas'el goes to block off Abaddon. His fire warriors go to screen out the oblits. Talon remains in Hover mode.
Everything focuses on the oblits because they are the closer unit to the objective. He only manages to do 1W to them.
His vindicator finally manages to kill my other obliterator unit, not that it really matters. Perhaps as a moral victory for him.
Chaos 6
Spoiler:
I go straight into assault. I don't bother to shoot with my oblits.
I annihilate both the fire warriors and his shas'el. Oblits consolidate 6" to contest!!!
Now my opponent needs the game to continue for 1 more turn in order to pull out a miracle. Otherwise, I've got this game in the bag.
We roll to see if the game continues and.....
Space Marines/Tau 7
Spoiler:
Game on!
My opponent makes a last ditch effort to kill my oblits and stop Abaddon. He has a slim chance. He needs to do this turn what he has been unsuccessfully trying to do the last 2 turns - wipe out my oblits! Then he has to stop Abaddon from advancing, assaulting and then consolidating onto his objective.
A tall order indeed, however, he's got an Ace-in-the-hole....his vindicator now has a shot against my oblits!
It will take a total team effort.
I actually give Kingsley a great tip. I told him his tacticals were too close to my oblits and that he wouldn't have been able to fire his vindicator because of that. Because of that, he backs up his tacticals to allow him to place the blast marker on the oblits.
And the result is 3 dead oblits. Though it would take practically his entire army to do so.
Tacticals then run forwards to block off Abaddon.
Chaos 7
Spoiler:
Ok, I can still take this. I've got options. Either go around his tacticals and then run or assault them and then consolidate.
I only manage to move 3" through difficult terrain. Now I need to run at least 5" or 6" to contest. I don't like those odds.
So instead, I assault his marines in the hopes of wiping them out and then consolidating towards his objective (because the assault move gave me about 2" of free movement).
What I failed to realize was that he still had a sergeant in that unit! Thus I was forced to challenge him. So I crush his little man and now he is testing on LD7 for morale. I need for them to fail and for me not to catch them and then I've got this game.
Fortunately for my opponent, they pass morale and Abaddon is stuck in combat and a couple of inches away from contesting. I should have just ran.
So after the match, we shake hands and talk about what a great game it was. I then tell Kingsley: "That was a great game, unfortunately, it was a tie."
He then looks at me dumb-founded. After all his work in preventing me from contesting his objective, he thinks he's got the game won due to First Blood.
I then answer his surprised stare with this: "You forgot about Linebreaker."
Space Marines-Tau: (by Kingsley)
Stormtalons can only use their special Hover Strike, they cannot do a normal Hover Mode move-- otherwise my second Stormtalon certainly would have come into play as another blocking unit.
There were two things preventing me teleporting my Librarian-- first, I was going second. With only one wound on the Librarian (he took a wound from Perils on turn 5 and didn't cast afterwards for risk of killing himself), he would have a 1/18 chance of dying instantly from Perils and giving jy2 Warlord. Further, jy2's zombies would have a reasonable chance of killing the Librarian on the bottom of the turn. Second, I thought I was about to win the game so didn't think it was necessary!
To be honest, I was fixated enough on First Blood (as seen in both players' pregame thoughts) that I had forgotten about Linebreaker completely! I'm not sure if I could have killed Abaddon, however. It may be that simply blocking was the correct move regardless under the circumstances-- doing another 4 wounds through t5 2+/4++ EW would have been quite difficult, and would have given up positional defense that I was able to achieve via Run moves.
My main hope to achieve Linebreaker would have been to put 5 Tactical Marines into a Rhino and just move + flat out, then tank shock through the zombies and disembark. It turned out, however, that every Tactical Marine was necessary for blocking purposes-- in the end I sacrificed all 4 Tactical Marine units, one of the FIre Warrior Squads, and the Command Suit in order to block jy2 from contesting. Even still, it was a close thing-- had I not killed the Oblits on turn 7 I would have lost the match.
So ultimately I'm not sure if knowing about Linebreaker would have helped all that much. Similarly, if Abaddon were the Warlord I don't think the game would have changed a ton either (though perhaps jy2 would be less willing to attack aggressively with him)-- I would still have had to focus most of my attacks on the Oblits to get them off the objective on turn 7. I would likely have concentrated more on him in turn 6, but it's not like I was able to do huge damage that turn anyway...
Overall, this was one of my favorite games of 40k, ever! Both times I have played jy2 (this game and this one), we have had remarkably close and fun games. I am looking forward to the next time jy2 and I meet up on the battlefield!
Chaos: (by Jy2)
After my opponent got First Blood, I thought I was going to lose this game. But when I deepstruck Abaddon into his deployment zone, I realized that this was his game to lose, not mine. That was because I will get Linebreaker unless he can wipe me out. And with the terrain in the backfield, I knew I could use it to deny some of his shooting and thusly increase the survivability of my unit (i.e. his vindicator didn't have LOS to my unit for the most part). Kingsley was so focused on trying to stop my mini-deathstar that I knew he wasn't thinking about Linebreaker. And then I mishapped! I was very fortunate not to roll a 1-3 on the mishap table, because that would have cost me the game if I did.
Abaddon and the oblits were definitely my MVP's in this game. They withstood the offense of practically my opponent's entire army for 3 turns!!! I can't believe the punishment they survived, but I must give credit to my hot saves. Even Null Zone couldn't put a damper on Abaddon's saves. If not for them, I surely would have lost.
However, I did make a couple of errors that probably cost me the win. First was when I advanced my chaos spawns. I should have held them back until I got First Blood. The second was assaulting with Abaddon on Turn 7. Looking back now at the photos, I think I was actually closer than I had thought (maybe only 3-4" away instead of the 5-6" that I thought). I could have pre-measured the distance but didn't. I should have ran. I also didn't take into account that he had a sargeant in his combat squad. Had I realized that, I definitely would have ran Abaddon instead. Of course it is no guarantee that running would get me to within contesting range, but I think the chances of me winning that way would have been greater.
Overall, it was a great game. These nail-biter, down-to-the-wire types of games are always the funnest.....nerve-wracking, but extremely fun.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2013/01/23 05:05:37
What camera do you use for your reports Jim? I'm always impressed with the quality of your Batreps.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/22 17:46:00
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2013/01/22 17:46:23
Subject: 1750 Tournament - Double-Trouble Chaos Dynamic Duo! (1st Game Up on p.2)
Stoffer wrote: Wait why would the hellturkey need to evade? Doesn't it have a 5+ invul.
Null Zone I think.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2013/01/22 18:10:33
Subject: 1750 Tournament - Double-Trouble Chaos Dynamic Duo! (1st Game Up on p.2)
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2013/01/22 18:24:48
Subject: 1750 Tournament - Double-Trouble Chaos Dynamic Duo! (1st Game Up on p.2)
Must have been getting a bit tense/time-constrained at the end there - your opponent passed up some better movement options on turn 6 (the Storm Talon should have screened off the Oblits, and the Vindie should have driven up on to the hill; even that Rhino could have gotten involved).
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?
2013/01/22 18:36:26
Subject: Re:1750 Tournament - Double-Trouble Chaos Dynamic Duo! (1st Game Up on p.2)
Great game! Seems like it's always a tense awesome game between you two,
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2013/01/22 18:49:09
Subject: 1750 Tournament - Double-Trouble Chaos Dynamic Duo! (1st Game Up on p.2)
Janthkin wrote: Must have been getting a bit tense/time-constrained at the end there - your opponent passed up some better movement options on turn 6 (the Storm Talon should have screened off the Oblits, and the Vindie should have driven up on to the hill; even that Rhino could have gotten involved).
I'm not sure if the talon can move like that. They have special hover rule which may be different from the normal Hover moves, but maybe someone who actually has the rules for the Storm talon can add some clarity to this.
And by his vindicator not moving, it turned out great for my opponent as he would get a clear shot on my oblits on T7.
Janthkin wrote: Must have been getting a bit tense/time-constrained at the end there - your opponent passed up some better movement options on turn 6 (the Storm Talon should have screened off the Oblits, and the Vindie should have driven up on to the hill; even that Rhino could have gotten involved).
I'm not sure if the talon can move like that. They have special hover rule which may be different from the normal Hover moves, but maybe someone who actually has the rules for the Storm talon can add some clarity to this.
I think what Janthkin meant was using the Storm Talon's flying base to prevent Oblits from reaching the objective.
Janthkin wrote: Must have been getting a bit tense/time-constrained at the end there - your opponent passed up some better movement options on turn 6 (the Storm Talon should have screened off the Oblits, and the Vindie should have driven up on to the hill; even that Rhino could have gotten involved).
I'm not sure if the talon can move like that. They have special hover rule which may be different from the normal Hover moves, but maybe someone who actually has the rules for the Storm talon can add some clarity to this.
I think what Janthkin meant was using the Storm Talon's flying base to prevent Oblits from reaching the objective.
And I think Jim meant that he's not sure it HAS a real "hover" mode that lets it move like a Fast Skimmer. I don't know how that one works out.
Abaddon is a beast, particularly since power weapons are usually only AP 3 now. Massed gunfire seems like the best option, once you can separate him from a squad full of secondary targets, but that wasn't an option here. Well-played on Kingsley's part to secure the draw; too bad he couldn't have Gated his Librarian to your deployment zone to try for the win.
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?
2013/01/22 19:06:49
Subject: 1750 Tournament - Double-Trouble Chaos Dynamic Duo! (1st Game Up on p.2)
Janthkin wrote: Must have been getting a bit tense/time-constrained at the end there - your opponent passed up some better movement options on turn 6 (the Storm Talon should have screened off the Oblits, and the Vindie should have driven up on to the hill; even that Rhino could have gotten involved).
I'm not sure if the talon can move like that. They have special hover rule which may be different from the normal Hover moves, but maybe someone who actually has the rules for the Storm talon can add some clarity to this.
I think what Janthkin meant was using the Storm Talon's flying base to prevent Oblits from reaching the objective.
Yeah, and in order to do that, it would have to go into Hover mode to get there. Now I know they have a special Hover mode where they can just pivot and fire at BS5. My question is, do they also have a normal Hover mode? I don't have the rules for them.
Abaddon is a beast, particularly since power weapons are usually only AP 3 now. Massed gunfire seems like the best option, once you can separate him from a squad full of secondary targets, but that wasn't an option here. Well-played on Kingsley's part to secure the draw; too bad he couldn't have Gated his Librarian to your deployment zone to try for the win.
He probably would have had he remembered about Linebreaker. Then again, he would be risking his Warlord in order to do so and I had the bottom of the turn.
My guess is that he thought he had the game won if he could stop Abaddon and oblits. If not, then I would contest and Linebreaker wouldn't have meant anything.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/01/22 19:11:41
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
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And maybe the game as well....
They do nothing to it. 
