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Yes, that outcome seems more likely.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Alright, that's a good point. it's a lot more plausible that the Alpha Legion did NOT name this regiment, but instead singled it out eventually because of its name. It's still the equivalent of being a devil in plain sight and painting a big red bullseye on their infiltrators, but Book 3 Extermination states that the Alpha Legion purposefully makes things harder than they have to just to challenge themselves.

Maybe they want to see how gullible the sons of gullibleman really are..? Or at least, how oblivious?

I love everyone in this thread claiming the logistics of it are impossible and its just too obvious the Alpha Legion would never do that as if this is real life and not 40k.

The writers of this setting are not awesome they write simple sci fi for a simple theme so we can make up our own stories without needlessly worrying about stepping on the fluff. It is completely reasonable they would name an Alpha Legion Cell the Alphic Hyrdas and have them target the UMs, it makes fluffly sense if you don't nitpick it and that's what 40k is built on things making "kinda sense". None of 40k makes any sense if you look into too much, from the Heresy to Tau existing you can nitpick it apart.

Just like I think Blood Ravens are loyalist Thousand Sons, The Sons of Anteus are loyalist descendants of the Deathguard, Minotaurs are loyalist World Eater descendants and Carachadons are loyalist Night Lords, I'm going to now assume the 55th Hydras are a Alpha Legion cell that are attempted to destroy the UMs.

Does it make sense if you look into to much, of course not because this is a game not real life.

I mean I'm not sure because I don't check those forums but are fans of Halo complaining the Chief can solo entire armies when earlier in the setting a whole bunch of Spartans died to the same Covenant armies?

Now if you excuse me I'm off to paint my newly converted Female Chaos Grey Knights with Deamon infested Tau allies, don't worry I made them all true scale so as to be "realistic"

2x210 wrote:
I love everyone in this thread claiming the logistics of it are impossible and its just too obvious the Alpha Legion would never do that as if this is real life and not 40k.

The writers of this setting are not awesome they write simple sci fi for a simple theme so we can make up our own stories without needlessly worrying about stepping on the fluff. It is completely reasonable they would name an Alpha Legion Cell the Alphic Hyrdas and have them target the UMs, it makes fluffly sense if you don't nitpick it and that's what 40k is built on things making "kinda sense". None of 40k makes any sense if you look into too much, from the Heresy to Tau existing you can nitpick it apart.

Just like I think Blood Ravens are loyalist Thousand Sons, The Sons of Anteus are loyalist descendants of the Deathguard, Minotaurs are loyalist World Eater descendants and Carachadons are loyalist Night Lords, I'm going to now assume the 55th Hydras are a Alpha Legion cell that are attempted to destroy the UMs.

Does it make sense if you look into to much, of course not because this is a game not real life.

I mean I'm not sure because I don't check those forums but are fans of Halo complaining the Chief can solo entire armies when earlier in the setting a whole bunch of Spartans died to the same Covenant armies?

Now if you excuse me I'm off to paint my newly converted Female Chaos Grey Knights with Deamon infested Tau allies, don't worry I made them all true scale so as to be "realistic"

Actually it does make sense if you've bothered to read the HH series, where there were many loyalists from the traitor legions who shed their allegience and were swallowed up by other chapters or organizations. the Grey Knights were formed from the Luna Wolves and Death Guard, the Iron Skulls are likely the loyalist Iron Warriors assimilated by the Ultramarines, the Ultramarines also assimilated the survivors of one of the unknown legions after they turned traitor before the HH (or something along those lines), which is why the Ultramarines Legion is unusually large and explains why so many Ultramarine descendents are mutated despite being "pure". Hell, it's a part of the fluff.

Except that, as per GW's Index Astartes - a source written and published by the main studio itself, not a bunch of freelance writers whose ideas frequently contradict Codex material - the Ultramarines were already the largest Legion before the Horus Heresy.

"As the largest Space Marine Legion, the Ultramarines' contributions to this resource was greater than any other Legion and, as a result, their gene-seed became the stock type for many of the Second Founding Chapters. Those Chapters created from the Ultramarines geneseed stored on Terra are known, collectively, as the Primogenitors or 'first born', and they also venerate Roboute Guilliman as their founding father. The Ultramarines gene-seed is by far the purest stock and there are no known aberrations in its genetic structure."
- WD #264

Also, did anyone notice that there are at least 54 other regiments bearing the name "Alphic Hydras"? Are they secretly working for the Alpha Legion, too?

From what I'm reading here, it all comes down to "these guys are helping the Ultramarines, that means they must be traitors!" - which just sounds a little ... thin.

The main reasoning behind it is narrative convention. Outside of the fluff, using out-of-universe reasoning, any author who wrote that piece most likely knew about the Alpha Legion and its Hydra symbol. Especially if he's a GW employee that had access to Book 3 Alpha Legion info as it was in production as well. Hypothetically, this GW author might have been inspired to make this regiment as he read Book 3 in advance and saw the Legion's synopsis and its hydra motif and artworks.

In-universe, yea, it's rather nonsensical. But as a work of fiction being written by an author, narrative convention makes it at least plausible.

So it's not "these guys are helping the Ultramarines, that means they must be traitors!". It's "The fluff author gave these guys a name that just screams Alpha Legion, so they might/must be Alpha Legion!" (I'd definately go with "might", myself) Which is definately NOT rock-concrete of anything but is still a possibility. Still, it's possible that the author is just trolling people. Unlike the Blood Ravens who at this point the writers couldn't make it any more obvious short of explicitly saying so directly by now (given Arvida Revuel the loyalist Thousand Son that's still running around), there is nothing in the piece itself that really is that suspicious beyond the name right now. Really, hypothetically speaking, if the name of this regiment was almost anything else, it wouldn't be suspicious at all. So there's always the simple fact that the author maybe just liked the name "Alphic Hydras", or that the author is purposefully joking at people finding Alpha Legion conspiracies everywhere but the truth is this regiment is 100% innocent. Or maybe there is no answer at this point in time and the author just wanted to encourage discussion on the matter (as many other aspects of 40k fluff are purposefully kept vague for reasons like that)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:

Also, did anyone notice that there are at least 54 other regiments bearing the name "Alphic Hydras"? Are they secretly working for the Alpha Legion, too?

Like discussed earlier, it's possible the regiment and its name, as well as the 54 regiments before it, were initially entirely innocent, but one day, as the 55th one rolled around, some Alpha Legionaires looked at its name and thought "Hey, I have an absolutely hilarious idea..."

The name "Alphic Hydras" is also following a naming convention (greek letter + animal) established for an entire army troop type, though - to me, it just sounds a bit ... much ... to assume that they'd go this much out of the way just to insert a minor easter egg.

To me, it looks like simple coincidence. That being said, I also believe it is not beyond some writers in the studio to "troll" the players, considering some other fluff they have put out. Games Workshop has a long and proud history of playing with people's expectations, using ambiguity, intentionally self-contradicting material and semi-hidden meanings between printed lines to make people read a thousand different things out of their books. I could well see how this could develop into a sort of "paranoia" where fans now start seeing conspiracies where none exist. Or where others, like (possibly) me, are too blinded by their belief to be adept at discovering said hidden meanings think they've seen through the ruse, only to walk right into the trap.

 Lynata wrote:
The name "Alphic Hydras" is also following a naming convention (greek letter + animal) established for an entire army troop type, though - to me, it just sounds a bit ... much ... to assume that they'd go this much out of the way just to insert a minor easter egg.

To me, it looks like simple coincidence. That being said, I also believe it is not beyond some writers in the studio to "troll" the players, considering some other fluff they have put out. Games Workshop has a long and proud history of playing with people's expectations, using ambiguity, intentionally self-contradicting material and semi-hidden meanings between printed lines to make people read a thousand different things out of their books. I could well see how this could develop into a sort of "paranoia" where fans now start seeing conspiracies where none exist. Or where others, like (possibly) me, are too blinded by their belief to be adept at discovering said hidden meanings think they've seen through the ruse, only to walk right into the trap.

Or its that they're literally called the Alphic Hydras, and there's no ambiguity whatsoever.

I'm still of the opinion that if true it just feels really, really stupid. This would be even worse than the 'alucard' spelling 'dracula' backwards or the whole 'dr. narud' actually being 'duran' in starcraft 2 (which actually ended up being true and is just the name spelled backwards). I just sort of sigh every time that kind of happens.

Then again isn't the symbol of the hydra also on the alpha legion? That part is admittedly a little more clever. Dunno how I only just noticed this.

Oh god please don't tell me this was an easter egg.

Man this reminds me of part of something some bad guy civilizations say humorously to good guy civilizations in 'Galactic Civilizations 2'. It goes something like this.

"Do you know why evil wins? Because good is dumb!"

Seriously when don't the good guys end up doing something stupid in some way in 40k.

I liked it when things were more clever than alphic hydra consipiracy theories and people thought about the machine god techpriests worshipped actually being the void dragon (because I think that was the case). Then there was some stuff having to do with the necron artifacts discovered by the tau. There was also the coolness with the pariah gene and tyranids avoiding a necron world since there was probably no life on it. I just feel like GW can be more clever than alphic hydras being traitor. It just seems really cheesy.

Random thought, but hasn't this conversation lent itself towards belong in the Background section?

The problem is that there is no actual evidence pointing towards the conclusion. Everything presented so far has been largely supposition and coincidence. Sure, the narrative fits if you want it to but there is nothing actually proving it. Until something is released that furthers this fluff point it can be nothing more than a possibility, and a weak one at that. It really does just seem like a huge stretch to jump to this conclusion. I actually would be interested if it was a true plot point but the evidence just isn't there in any concrete way.

 Lynata wrote:
Except that, as per GW's Index Astartes - a source written and published by the main studio itself, not a bunch of freelance writers whose ideas frequently contradict Codex material - the Ultramarines were already the largest Legion before the Horus Heresy.

"As the largest Space Marine Legion, the Ultramarines' contributions to this resource was greater than any other Legion and, as a result, their gene-seed became the stock type for many of the Second Founding Chapters. Those Chapters created from the Ultramarines geneseed stored on Terra are known, collectively, as the Primogenitors or 'first born', and they also venerate Roboute Guilliman as their founding father. The Ultramarines gene-seed is by far the purest stock and there are no known aberrations in its genetic structure."
- WD #264

Also, did anyone notice that there are at least 54 other regiments bearing the name "Alphic Hydras"? Are they secretly working for the Alpha Legion, too?

From what I'm reading here, it all comes down to "these guys are helping the Ultramarines, that means they must be traitors!" - which just sounds a little ... thin.

There's "large" and then there's "ruling an entire Segmentum and accounting for nigh all Astartes Chapters post the Horus Heresy".

Also, the quote actually describes them after the Horus Heresy, and the Ultramarines also assimilated one of the unknown legions before the Horus Heresy additionally and would have had their gene seed labeled Ultramarine. So it fits perfectly.

 Trickstick wrote:
How would they be Alpha legion though? They would have to have Ultramarine geneseed, not to mention the mindwipes they go through (a good old dirus wash is hard to fight).

Actually, I think that the Alpha Legion is all a ruse. There is just one old Legionnaire in a shack somewhere, spreading so much misinformation that it seems like they are everywhere. It is all lies!

Ultrasmurfs to be Crimson Consul'd?

I think that the person who wrote the fluff about the 55th definitely knew about the Alpha Legion fluff, so it's probably like every other piece of fluff in the book in that it's meant to inspire you to create your own regiment or background.

Forging a narrative ahoy!

Also, all you naysayers who cry coincidence, why?
If anything, this theory makes the 'troopers a bit more interesting, and the Alpha Legion a lot more sneaky!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ok, so? That still doesn't answer the question how the Legion got their human minions into the schola. Just sounds like speculation.

By training them previous to submission into the Schola and then having them excel above everyone else because they were trained by the masters of guerrilla warfare? Then they'd join the Stormtroopers, infiltrate the upper ranks and then have the highest up guy let in all the Alpha Legion recruits and keep out any non-indoctrinated ones and just turn the Scions regiment into a big AL Cell. After that they'd buddy up with the Ultramarines, prove their worth and get accepted into the UMs and then destroy them from the inside.
JUST AS PLANNED

Ok then, wouldn't that mean that ALL Stormtroopers are minions? Why stop with 1 regiment? Why not all of them?
Why even stop at Stormtroopers? Why not sisters, or commissars?
Also, doesn't the Schola have a very strict screening process? I mean, it is where the military elite is trained.

It's just such a convoluted scheme. There's so many plot holes it makes swiss cheese look like solid lead.

I believe convoluted is the Alpha Legion's calling card.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ok, so? That still doesn't answer the question how the Legion got their human minions into the schola. Just sounds like speculation.

By training them previous to submission into the Schola and then having them excel above everyone else because they were trained by the masters of guerrilla warfare? Then they'd join the Stormtroopers, infiltrate the upper ranks and then have the highest up guy let in all the Alpha Legion recruits and keep out any non-indoctrinated ones and just turn the Scions regiment into a big AL Cell. After that they'd buddy up with the Ultramarines, prove their worth and get accepted into the UMs and then destroy them from the inside.
JUST AS PLANNED

Ok then, wouldn't that mean that ALL Stormtroopers are minions? Why stop with 1 regiment? Why not all of them?
Why even stop at Stormtroopers? Why not sisters, or commissars?
Also, doesn't the Schola have a very strict screening process? I mean, it is where the military elite is trained.

It's just such a convoluted scheme. There's so many plot holes it makes swiss cheese look like solid lead.

I believe convoluted is the Alpha Legion's calling card.

It really is, alongside Pride.

Oh, in the fluff for another Alphic regiment they wrote that they would maintain close ties to another SM chapter. I think there's system to the whole Alpha production line...

Wyzilla wrote:There's "large" and then there's "ruling an entire Segmentum and accounting for nigh all Astartes Chapters post the Horus Heresy".

There's also exaggerated hearsay, licensed fluff, and GW fluff. In the latter, Ultramar is a small cluster of 8 systems with 8 (formerly nine, but Prandium was devastated during the 'nid invasion) major planets. In spite of the proximity in names, Ultima Segmentum is not "ruled by the Ultramarines".

And "many Chapters of the Second Founding" is also not equal to "nearly all post-Heresy Astartes Chapters ever".

Wyzilla wrote:Also, the quote actually describes them after the Horus Heresy, and the Ultramarines also assimilated one of the unknown legions before the Horus Heresy additionally and would have had their gene seed labeled Ultramarine. So it fits perfectly.

If - again according to White Dwarf - there are "no known aberrations" in the Ultramarines' geneseed, how exactly does it fit to your statement about "many Ultramarine descendants being mutated"? It doesn't seem to add up. Which Ultramarines descendants are you talking about, specifically?

Also, them having absorbed one of the unknown Legions prior to the Heresy - is this novel fluff, or from a Codex? Because contrary to popular belief, both sources are not required to deliver a consistent, compatible interpretation of the setting, and GW books have contradicted novels (and vice versa) before.
(mind you: tie-ins are possible - you just should not make the mistake to expect them)

Inky wrote:I think that the person who wrote the fluff about the 55th definitely knew about the Alpha Legion fluff, so it's probably like every other piece of fluff in the book in that it's meant to inspire you to create your own regiment or background.
Forging a narrative ahoy!

Yeah, it could be like the (probably also intentional) controversy regarding the Blood Ravens.

Thinking about it, maybe it's less about this easter egg influencing the entire naming convention of the Storm TroopersScions as I first thought, but rather the author just looked at the pattern (greek letter + animal) which had already been decided, and then got the idea about doing something with "Alphic" (which has already been there) by adding an animal that may be associated with the Alpha Legion, and then typing up a backstory that might hint at a scheme.

Inky wrote:Also, all you naysayers who cry coincidence, why?

In my view, it just boils down them having a history of helping the Ultras, which is ... thin. It can't be the name alone, because this would mean that somehow the Alpha Legion has at least 55 regiments of Schola-raised elite Imperial Guard under its control (as well as whoever decides on naming the regiments). Which seems a bit like a stretch, even for master conspirators, and certainly not in line with how the scope of their scheming had been described in earlier sources.

That said, I admit that the mere fact that they and their history with the Ultras are mentioned at all could be seen as a hint (see TamatRoar's post - also regarding the idea of a possible infiltration of a single unit rather than all of them), of course with the usual "it could be, or maybe it isn't" caveat that accompanies such pieces.

"But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies."
- Marc Gascogne, (former) Chief Editor Black Library

It's worth noting by the way that the authors have said that the Ultramarines did NOT in fact absorb the lost legions. the Comment suggesting they did was made by a member of the word bearers as "jelousy fueled speculation" with no basis in fact. In short sometimes when a character in a novel spews a conspiracy theory it's not nesscarily true

BrianDavion wrote:a character in a novel

Ahh. Thank you.

What's the color scheme of these guys and their symbols anyway? Not sure it matters as pre-heresy and current traitor marines look different but I just want to see the style if nothing else.

Also I'm feeling kind of weird for liking the stormtrooper army quite a bit now. The transport can look silly sometimes but it has an interesting gothic armored transport feel. It does feel somewhat like the imperial guard WWI-WWII era armory.

------------

I feel like it's not as groan-worthy of a theory as it was before but it's still pretty bad. The alpha and hydra are both alpha legion symbols somewhat. Going along with just alpha is quite the stretch but hydra as well for the beast on their shoulder pads seems a little more possible. Still seems way too obvious though.

Like I said before it'd be much better if they were loyalist till some stupid inquisitor ruined everybody's fun by probing the regiment and declaring them heretics without any substantial proof. It's not like inquisitors don't do that sort of thing. Then they'd go rogue as renegades and may even seek refuge with chaos or the tau as they'd die otherwise. It'd be more interesting if they went with chaos though.

I just think it'd make a lot more sense that rather than have guys infiltrating the ultramarines the alpha legion was incensed by the name and planned an ironic fate for them by becoming thralls to chaos.

Red armor, golden trim, with black fatigue, white casing on their hellguns and green lights.

Their symbol is a red square on white background.

I think the stormies look good when equipped with vendettas. Those metuhl bawkses they try to position as an APC are only fit for ork conversions, if any needed at all...

 Bobthehero wrote:
Red armor, golden trim, with black fatigue, white casing on their hellguns and green lights.

Their symbol is a red square on white background.

Funny , because red square on white background is called lizards/dragon eye here.

Makumba wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Red armor, golden trim, with black fatigue, white casing on their hellguns and green lights.

Their symbol is a red square on white background.

Funny , because red square on white background is called lizards/dragon eye here.

hydras are sort of lizard/dragons...oh seriously!?Every SINGLE thing about them except for colours are alpha legion related!?It couldn't be more obvious if they did this!
Smurf says:"who is in charge here?"
Hydra Sergeant:"I am.I'm Alpharius."
"Who is in charge of the platoon?"
"Alpharius".
....."who is in charge of the regiment"?
"Alpharius"

Yeah, it's so obvious they couldn't be cultists.
It would be like in one of those stupid movies where it's so obvious who the villain is, and no one is suspicious about it.

If they were cultists, they might as well have mustaches, so they can twiddling them while kicking puppies and burning down orphanages.

Not to mention how a bunch of cultists managed to get past all of the schola's screening processes. They are very thorough when it comes to paper work.
Now if it were 1 cultist...maybe. But a whole regiment of them? That's just silly.

I am not sure if someone has already pointed this out (sorry if someone has), but there is more stuff about the Alphas in the Codex Tempestus.

It is about the 32nd Thetoid Eagles: they fought a sustained campaign against a series of cultist uprisings attributed to the Alpha Legion. They eventually disappeared after seeing their command structure and Commisars killed: "after the ash had settled (...) the Thetoid Eagles had simply vanished from the system entirely".

To me, this prove that the writer knew about the Alphas, and it hints that he/she/it is actually an Alpha fanboy. I mean, the regiment disappears after all their leaders are killed?. Doesn´t sound heroic at all, it doesn´t seem to be aimed at your average Imperial player claiming "hey what a cool background, I will pick this regiment". It looks more like "Alphas are awesome and there is something going on between them and the Thetoid Eagles".

There is more: the Warwing symbol they use is odd: "dark whispers abound that the symbol has other, veiled meaning" (...) "The truth of this matter, as well as the wider concerns regarding the regiment´s recent record, have recently become the concern of alarmingly powerful Imperial bodies". I don´t know what they mean about the symbol, it means nothing to me.

Just like the symbol of the 55th Alphic Hydras: a red triangle. "it echoes a sigil from the DAoT that has been linked to the Hydras since their inception". No idea what they mean.

Another hint: we are given the name of the place where the Alphic Hydras have their training facilities: Mount Charas. Any of you heard that name before? Just asking.



Sooooo... I know think it is an easter egg. Good reason to read all the background section with care.

er... stringent requirements for the Schola? Really?

The requirement is essentially "Be an orphan."

Now, graduating and actually becoming a Stormtrooper/Commisar etc, has requirements, but getting in ain't hard.

This is incredibly silly. I have half a mind to make my eventual planned IG allies traitor-Alphic Hydras to go with my Alpha Legion and then act like it was a total coincidence.

"I just really like hydras, okay?"

heil Hydra