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 Sir Arun wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Yeah well this is ridiculous.

I dig that IG and the occasional Smurf wants to have an Assassin at his side as well. But stripping the assassins away from the GK codex (which otherwise already is pretty mundane without additional flavor) and selling it separately as an army book that contains 4 units is plain money robbing

Nothing new here. Assassins have been in a strange place ever since 3rd edition.

Goes back further than that. Assassins were just "imperial agents" in 2nd Edition.

Tying them into the Grey Knights was what was weird and out of character for 40K. Not taking them away from it.

At the same time it was also what elevated GKs from a niche army barely anyone played, to a "full" army like Smurfs, Eldar, Tau etc.

I thought that had more to do with the awesome models GW released for the GK 5e dex, which remain IMO the best PA and TDA models they've ever made (and yes, I like the DK).

Backfire wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Backfire wrote:


No, it is complete hyperbole that GW could go under in 2 years. Maybe 5 years, yes, if they do real bad. Most companies that go bankrupt DO look that way years advance - I don't know where do you get the idea that they don't.

When GW did not update army books, it was a sign that they were doing poorly because they tried to avoid the cost of updating an army.
When GW does update army books, it is a sign that they are doing poorly because they are in panic mode to get more sales.

The truth is that slow codex update schedule was something players complained for years. Now that GW has rectified the situation, the people complain again - often very selfsame people...

It should be noted that Backfire, when contributing to said threads, provides no real data for his 'contrary to the facts' position.

LOL. OK, I admit it is completely unproven that most of the playerbase didn't prefer the old release schedule. Maybe they secretly liked it and all the complaint threads here were not representative of the actual feelings of the playerbase? I mean, it's POSSIBLE.

Since the majority don't post on forums, very possible. doesn't really matter as their report show sell are down even with the faster releases.

Backfire wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Even this statement lacks the granularity of the situation of massed releases being thrown out at low quality with higher prices, such as they are now, and still having a major reduction of profits.

...but of course YOU can go throw out statements like this, and it goes without saying that they are factual, right?
I mean, is, for example, new Space Marine Tactical Squad worse quality than the old, cheaper one? Or how about the new 7th edition rulebook compared to the 5th or 6th edition BRB's?

The book hand down worse, it is sad when people are willing blind to it doesn't change the fact.

Backfire wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Essentially, the economics right now all point to GW being in a bad position and, without any major changes to their actions or a huge up swell in the player base, are very likely in a "death spiral" (actual econ term) and can easily fold within 18-24 months.

No, 'death spiral' is actually figure skating term.

No it used in both, not a great evade there.

 Jancoran wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Here's someone without a dog in the fight that knows a lot more about business than either of us. He says the future of GW isn't pretty at all. They're going down. They're doing nothing to stop that descent.

http://masterminis.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-future-of-games-workshop-part-15.html

I'm a business owner and I say no. He's a biz guy and he says yes. Whatever. I am in the financial field. I think I know more about business than this dude on... what is it? Masterminis.net? Lol. Come on.

I really hope that is sarcasm.

Noir - wait, the 7th edition BRB is worse than the 5th and 6th? Its better laid out, significantly better organised into the three books, and the artwork is superior, in my opinion.

So why is it "hand [sp] down worse"?

 Jancoran wrote:


Sorry but thats just a lot of if's. they're not going under. So.

Sorry, but thats just a lot of nothing. So.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Noir - wait, the 7th edition BRB is worse than the 5th and 6th? Its better laid out, significantly better organised into the three books, and the artwork is superior, in my opinion.

So why is it "hand [sp] down worse"?

Yeah, that's a puzzling statement. The format is better, the paper feels better quality, the art and layout and pics are just as good as in earlier editions.
I mean, at worst you could argue that the format changes are not worth of 4€ price increase, though I'd personally disagree.

It is true that companies who are in financial trouble often begin cut corners on quality. However what they usually do is that they change to worse materials and keep charging equivalent prices. I guess it could be said that Finecast is an example of this, but that is not a recent development. 7th edition BRB is pretty poor example however as I am sure that it cost more for GW to produce than earlier edition rulebooks.

Well for one the 7th edition rulebook looks like a 5 year old with ADHD was in charge of its formatting and couldnt help himself but paste a big shiny pic of painted models almost every single page, pics that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the rules being presented on that particular page.


In a rulebook, when I see pictures, I expect them to only display situations the rules are mentioning.

At least when reading the rule books of older 40k editions, I didnt feel like there was someone next to me saying "ooh ooh ooh btw. look at this cool army right here!"

It actually caught my eye too that some of the pics seemed just kinda pointless and did little to nothing to clarify the rules talked about in the text. However, that comes down to artistic preference, and has nothing to do with production quality which by every measure is equal or better than in previous editions.

7th edition is already winning players back?? LOL! Where in their finincial report would you find that empirical evidence?

Backfire wrote:
It actually caught my eye too that some of the pics seemed just kinda pointless and did little to nothing to clarify the rules talked about in the text. However, that comes down to artistic preference, and has nothing to do with production quality which by every measure is equal or better than in previous editions.

Other then some of the models being unfinished or drybrushed that's a quality thing.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Well for one the 7th edition rulebook looks like a 5 year old with ADHD was in charge of its formatting and couldnt help himself but paste a big shiny pic of painted models almost every single page, pics that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the rules being presented on that particular page.


In a rulebook, when I see pictures, I expect them to only display situations the rules are mentioning.

At least when reading the rule books of older 40k editions, I didnt feel like there was someone next to me saying "ooh ooh ooh btw. look at this cool army right here!"

Formatting issues can be blamed for that

What do you propose they put in the gap? Just a grot whistling, saying nothing to see here? Page layout, and rule layout requirements, mean you are always going to have some white space. What do you propose they fill it in with? The grot, as above? Or a pretty picture of a model, for this model-defined hobby?

Still not "hand [sic] down" worse.

Id say that the GK dex is an example of cutting corners while charging more.

It's printed in china.. I would not mind the price if it was printed in a country that pays fare wages. Sorry I am a union guy

 MWHistorian wrote:
Id say that the GK dex is an example of cutting corners while charging more.

The EA approach. Copy paste, make it pretty and charge more. It's like used car salesmen rolling back odometers and adding a new paint job while knowing its going to break down in a 100km.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Sorry but thats just a lot of if's. they're not going under. So.

Sorry, but thats just a lot of nothing. So.

For those who dont know context, yes. it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Musashi363 wrote:
7th edition is already winning players back?? LOL! Where in their finincial report would you find that empirical evidence?

Im on a pretty good numebr of forums and have seen the evidence Impirically. It is a fact that people are returning to this hobby after long Hiatus. This very forum contains many a post from people returning to it but there are so many others and the trend is quite noticeable.

I think the word you are looking for there then is 'anecdotal' not empirical.

so is this codex any good at all? any new fluff? any pretty pictures?

 Blacksails wrote:
Its not like the GK codex took any work or effort.

Might as well burn $30, tear out pages from your existing book that no longer exist in the new one, and sharpie the new points costs.

Yup. I'm shocked more people aren't annoyed.

 Jancoran wrote:


For those who dont know context, yes. it is.

Care to enlighten us about this 'context'?

I'd be interested in seeing a viewpoint about how healthy GW is, especially if it was backed by some sort of data.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super Newb wrote:


Yup. I'm shocked more people aren't annoyed.

There are plenty who are annoyed.

There are people who are saying that this is a good move.

I'd be more inclined to agree if the GK book was ~$20, Inq ~$5, and Assassins ~$5. Paying some ~$100 for what used to be in a $30 book is not a good thing.

 Blacksails wrote:

Super Newb wrote:


Yup. I'm shocked more people aren't annoyed.

There are plenty who are annoyed.

There are people who are saying that this is a good move.

I'd be more inclined to agree if the GK book was ~$20, Inq ~$5, and Assassins ~$5. Paying some ~$100 for what used to be in a $30 book is not a good thing.

Nope it definitely isn't a good thing. Which is why I am shocked that more people aren't annoyed. Plenty are, sure, but I don't understand those who aren't. Losing half the options and charging more money for less options should be supported by approximately 0% of players.

Most of what Backfire responded with had already been dismissed in the larger thread, so I'm not rehashing. Long story short, he's wrong.

As for 7E being a great success, I'll ssay, as well, prove it. We have evidence in financials, distributors saying its being outsold by other game companies, a marked uptick in army sell offs on eBay, polls here showing its least favored over previous editions, and more. Some hard evidence, some anecdotal, all though pointing towards the same answer; 7E is a bad game. But anyone who even dabbles in game design and theory knows this. And before someone says "buy I like it!" Liking something and it being bad are two separate issues.

Backfire wrote:
IHowever, that comes down to artistic preference, and has nothing to do with production quality which by every measure is equal or better than in previous editions.

Disagree. It's a formatting issue that objectively brings the book down. Those big ass pictures of irrelevant models could have been replaced with actual text and rules, making the sections more compact and requiring less flipping around.

This forum is NOT equipped to deal with an in depth discussion of investments, It's not a place where we can possible plumb the depths of comparing this performance to say...anyone elses? No. This is not the place. Most people here glaze over when you explain how it all works and then respond with "nuh uh" or even worse, try to use big words. That's the worst, because honestly, people believe more stupid things for reasons that SOUND good than they ever do for GOOD SOUND reasons.

So instead of getting baited into an argument that this forum cant handle, and it cant, here's what I'll say instead.

This is unprecedented. it's what people asked for for more than a decade since the first Dark eldar codex dropped: "Faster Updates!" You got it. "More frequent FAQ's". You got it. "Fix 6E" You got it (to the extent any nerd will ever be happier about anything). "Models! More toys and BETTER toys!". You got it. "Kits I dont have to destroy to play as two versions of something". You got it. "Lower the points on over costed units". You got it (hell yeah you REALLY got it but as in all things its an economy of scale so all they did was really make you FEEL better about it and sell more models...kidos to them)

UNprecedented indeed. And there's more coming. They give stores Prize support in the new contract. Most shop owners greedily steal it (literally) and tell you "I contribute tables and shop space" if you dare ask for it. But some are above board and actually let TO's use it.

And they EVEN gave you online versions to buy. You dont have to. I HATE using electronic versions. But it's there.

You asked. they delivered. And we still cant stop being the whiney little beeaches we are about it because when it comes down to it, there will always be some d-bag whose out there hating (all the while cluttering up their shelves with it in a fit of HYPOCRICY).

If you don't play, shut up. If you do play, then you love the game so stop bitching. Neither group is going to crash GW this year so... Just stop.

 TheKbob wrote:
Most of what Backfire responded with had already been dismissed in the larger thread, so I'm not rehashing. Long story short, he's wrong.

Well, I say that I am right and you are wrong. To infinity +1.

About 7th edition, objectively it's essentially same game as 6th with some slight improvements, so it is a better game. My only signifant issue with it is that they could have fixed more things what were wrong with 6th, but missed their opportunity.

 Jancoran wrote:


"Faster Updates!" You got it.

Yes, faster updates are a good thing. Those updates should have always been better, instead of waiting 5+ years. I think its a little disingenuous to praise them for going from a completely unacceptable gap in updating books to what every other company does standard.

"More frequent FAQ's". You got it.

Of questionable nature. This also ignore the part where the books that get released require a FAQ so soon. You'd think a book could be released and not need a FAQ to function properly. But this goes to the quality of their rules, which doesn't exactly set any gold standards.

"Fix 6E" You got it (to the extent any nerd will ever be happier about anything).

Which ignores the problems with 7th that people are also unhappy about. Claiming 7th is all around better is questionable, as there were aspects of 7th that were introduced that are pretty poor examples of game design, and didn't address other issues people had with 6th in the first place. I wouldn't call 6th fixed by 7th, rather sidegraded.

"Models! More toys and BETTER toys!". You got it.

Sure, in isolation having more cool models is a good thing. Take the Knight; that's a cool model. However, when you consider the cost of the book and quality of the rules with it, it looks not so ideal. Other models are a question of taste, like Santa Grimnar, but overall, GW's plastics are still excellent, a point which no one is really contesting anyways.

"Kits I dont have to destroy to play as two versions of something". You got it.

I don't recall this being a big issue before, but yeah, as above, GW's plastics are still good. Now the price though...

"Lower the points on over costed units". You got it (hell yeah you REALLY got it but as in all things its an economy of scale so all they did was really make you FEEL better about it and sell more models...kidos to them)

I don't think people wanting a lowering of points cost so much as they wanted a balanced game. To that end, they're still pretty far out. The last few books from my understanding are at least better internally and externally balanced than say Tau, Eldar or Chaos, but that's not anything to be proud of.

What your post misses that people are upset about and leaving the game over is the constant upping of price for less content, both in plastic and in the books. Cutting the GK book into three parts, and upping the cost of the book by double isn't anything to get excited about. The release of 7th just prior to the financial end year window two years earlier than most of their edition cycles, and with an increased price is also not exactly a good move.

For all the good GW has done, they've also done as much bad. They have admitted they do no research, nor care what the market (us) wants. The cost to get into the game is higher than it ever has been, and the rules still aren't on par with anything else on the market. To further this, the fluff hasn't exactly been improved upon in any way, and with examples like Murderclaw, it doesn't speak well to their general concern for maintaining and improving upon their decades of work fluffing out a very cool universe.

Seriously though, none of these changes are a result of their close analysis of market trends or research into what people want. They admitted as such.

You can call it hating and bitching all you want, but it doesn't make you more right than anyone else. It'd also help your point not to insult other people when making your points. You also sound quite worked up about this.

Cheer up, you can discuss things like a miniatures company without feeling like your faith is being attacked.

 Jancoran wrote:
This forum is NOT equipped to deal with an in depth discussion of investments, It's not a place where we can possible plumb the depths of comparing this performance to say...anyone elses? No. This is not the place. Most people here glaze over when you explain how it all works and then respond with "nuh uh" or even worse, try to use big words. That's the worst, because honestly, people believe more stupid things for reasons that SOUND good than they ever do for GOOD SOUND reasons.

So instead of getting baited into an argument that this forum cant handle, and it cant, here's what I'll say instead.

This is unprecedented. it's what people asked for for more than a decade since the first Dark eldar codex dropped: "Faster Updates!" You got it. "More frequent FAQ's". You got it. "Fix 6E" You got it (to the extent any nerd will ever be happier about anything). "Models! More toys and BETTER toys!". You got it. "Kits I dont have to destroy to play as two versions of something". You got it. "Lower the points on over costed units". You got it (hell yeah you REALLY got it but as in all things its an economy of scale so all they did was really make you FEEL better about it and sell more models...kidos to them)

UNprecedented indeed. And there's more coming. They give stores Prize support in the new contract. Most shop owners greedily steal it (literally) and tell you "I contribute tables and shop space" if you dare ask for it. But some are above board and actually let TO's use it.

And they EVEN gave you online versions to buy. You dont have to. I HATE using electronic versions. But it's there.

You asked. they delivered. And we still cant stop being the whiney little beeaches we are about it because when it comes down to it, there will always be some d-bag whose out there hating (all the while cluttering up their shelves with it in a fit of HYPOCRICY).

If you don't play, shut up. If you do play, then you love the game so stop bitching. Neither group is going to crash GW this year so... Just stop.

Wow, you've got balls. You change the rules of the debate so you can have the final word and then tell everybody to shut up.

No. i told people who dont play to shut up...actually...

Backfire wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Most of what Backfire responded with had already been dismissed in the larger thread, so I'm not rehashing. Long story short, he's wrong.

Well, I say that I am right and you are wrong. To infinity +1.

About 7th edition, objectively it's essentially same game as 6th with some slight improvements, so it is a better game. My only signifant issue with it is that they could have fixed more things what were wrong with 6th, but missed their opportunity.

Cool, go to said thread, repost what you did here, and we can continue the discussion there. Long story short, you'll still be wrong based on what you've been repeating with zero factual basis.

You're right that 7E is the same game, but "improvements" is a loose term and all the data says "No, its not." Sales, polls, game design critiques, etc.

Jancoran wrote:This forum is NOT equipped to deal with an in depth discussion of investments, It's not a place where we can possible plumb the depths of comparing this performance to say...anyone elses? No. This is not the place. Most people here glaze over when you explain how it all works and then respond with "nuh uh" or even worse, try to use big words. That's the worst, because honestly, people believe more stupid things for reasons that SOUND good than they ever do for GOOD SOUND reasons.

So instead of getting baited into an argument that this forum cant handle, and it cant, here's what I'll say instead.

This is unprecedented. it's what people asked for for more than a decade since the first Dark eldar codex dropped: "Faster Updates!" You got it. "More frequent FAQ's". You got it. "Fix 6E" You got it (to the extent any nerd will ever be happier about anything). "Models! More toys and BETTER toys!". You got it. "Kits I dont have to destroy to play as two versions of something". You got it. "Lower the points on over costed units". You got it (hell yeah you REALLY got it but as in all things its an economy of scale so all they did was really make you FEEL better about it and sell more models...kidos to them)

UNprecedented indeed. And there's more coming. They give stores Prize support in the new contract. Most shop owners greedily steal it (literally) and tell you "I contribute tables and shop space" if you dare ask for it. But some are above board and actually let TO's use it.

And they EVEN gave you online versions to buy. You dont have to. I HATE using electronic versions. But it's there.

You asked. they delivered. And we still cant stop being the whiney little beeaches we are about it because when it comes down to it, there will always be some d-bag whose out there hating (all the while cluttering up their shelves with it in a fit of HYPOCRICY).

If you don't play, shut up. If you do play, then you love the game so stop bitching. Neither group is going to crash GW this year so... Just stop.

Not only do you insult everyone who'd attempt to have a critical opinion, you create a black and white that's so far from reality that's your argument is insufferable and asinine
And you state that we are all so simple and pedantic that we could never discuss something like a companies financials. Basically you shut down any form of opposing argument not with facts,but by throwing a huge hissy fit.

*inset billy-madison.avi here*

 Jancoran wrote:
No. i told people who dont play to shut up...actually...

Which is so much better.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No. i told people who dont play to shut up...actually...

Which is so much better.

It is. Literally.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheKbob wrote:

Not only do you insult everyone who'd attempt to have a critical opinion, you create a black and white that's so far from reality that's your argument is insufferable and asinine
And you state that we are all so simple and pedantic that we could never discuss something like a companies financials. Basically you shut down any form of opposing argument not with facts,but by throwing a huge hissy fit.

*inset billy-madison.avi here*

Well TheKBob, not EVERYONE is pedantic and simple minded...

I'll write down all these screen names and in a year, I am going to let you all know what happened in 2015 for GW. How bout we talk again January 2016? Sound good TheKBob? I'll cut and paste this stuff into a document so we wont, you know, "misquote" anyone.

I'm right, in which case you need to just say so and stop acting affronted (no one loves a Prima Donna)... Or I'm wrong in which case January 2016, I'll have some crow to eat. But you know... I doubt I will be doing that. I think you know I won't have to. Just a guess.

In either case, this isn't the place for this. Really not. Thats my opinion.