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clively wrote:

Spoiler:

I think the DE book is great.

At first I was dreading the changes that leaked out. Everything seemed to point towards the ultimate Codex of Not Doom. I decried the change to things that I regularly used. My "army" would no longer work like it once did and I had moments of cursing GW for daring to make me rethink my approach.

Now that I've played a few games and began the process of adapting, there is a LOT here that I'm really excited about. The makeup of my army has changed, units that I rarely - or never - took before now have a place such as mandrakes, scourges and even a succubus.

Yes, several models/units that I have will no longer make regular appearances in my games; I even said "see ya" to my wyches as I put them into long term storage.

Yes, I wanted (still do) an actual Vect model. I had converted my own; however, if I'm completely honest, I never fielded it as Vect. Most of my games are 1500 or less and he was just too costly to bother with. Yes, I wish lelith had a warlord trait that actually did *something*. However, she has sat on my shelf for almost 4 years; I suspect she'll be there another 4.

To me the biggest "flavor" of the Dark Eldar was summed up in 3 major items. 4+ Poison available to pretty much everything, the concept of getting better as the game progresses (Power from Pain) and having a random bonus (combat drugs) for at least part of the army. Poison is still there, Power from Pain is much better and Combat Drugs are much more useful - +1T is my favorite.

Quite frankly, the loss of the Duke and Baron haven't bothered me one bit. Those were abused by regular Eldar players much more often than those whose primary was the Dark Kin. Hellions were just never that good and the beast pack just seemed too much like using Khorne Dogs. Their removal honestly helped shore up the flavor of DE rather than let them be a copy cat.

The one major buff we did get was to deep strike. I never saw the point to deep striking before. Now, I plan on keeping 4 or more units in reserve to take advantage of this play style.

The tldr version is simply: yes things have absolutely changed. They helped bring down some of the power of Eldar by removing Duke/Baron. While increasing those things that make DE what they are. Over the next couple of months DE players will evolve and numerous armies will have to shift to deal with them.

While I enjoy your enthusiasm towards the codex, I just want to point out that DS DE armies isn't something new and we could always do this although it was almost always quite a lack luster strategy. It should be pointed out though, that the DE heavily focused on Alpha Striking back then and the new codex seems to favor beta striking a lot more, with both improved cover saves, WWP, new PfP mechanic and even a detachment that insures you have a decent cover, even out in the open, making it far more easy to survive turn 1.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:


quite the opposite really, I'm Implying any Eldar or Tau player will gladly swap their horribly internally balanced books for one with a good balance. I think most Eldar players would actually like it is the Wave Serpent was nerfed, but only if footdar was viable or the Falcon could compete for dedicated transport. I think people would gladly take Crisis Suits and Stealth Suits over Riptides if the Riptide was brought down a level and the Crisis was brought to the same one. External Balance can only be achieved after Internal Balance has been, which is something eldar and tau books are terrible at.

but take a look at the DE codex. Venoms are unchaged; wyches, archons, ravagers, got nerfed; while scourges reavers, and grotesques got buffed.

What if the new CWE codex left wave serpents completely unchanged, but nerfed all the units that people usually put in them while buffing units that people do not take. What if the new Tau dex leaves riptides the same, nerfs fire warriors and broadsides while buffing hammerheads and vespids?


The new DE codex is not balanced. It is very gimmicy. It requires a change is play style, but it isnt internally balance or externally balanced.

Venom has been changed massively in the state that the best units to put in it (Wyches, regardless of what nonsense Zewrath chooses to say about them being terrible) were nerfed into unplayability. The question of spamming Venoms (the most cost efficient source of Splinter weaponry in the dex) is now a hard one as it involves spamming units you probably don't want to be spamming. That being said I think I understand that your point was the model itself hasn't changed merely the units around it have, and you are correct in saying that this has done nothing for our internal balance. They improved some units ruined others. Internal balance remains shot, just means we have to buy a bunch of new models if we want to continue to play with the favourably balanced half of the dex. GG.

ryuken87 wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

I've been waiting to hear results of people running large packs of Grotesques with a Haemonculus. I think the Haemy is necessary to bump up the PFP table for them to get FNP right away, and to buff their leadership unless using the Covens supplement. Have any of you used, say a 10 man Grotesque unit with Haemy and WWP yet? I'd be curious if 10 of those big fellas is overkill, or an awesome murder unit.

Grotesques come with FNP anyway. Still wouldn't run them without an IC.

In the coven book they get Fearless turn 2, which might be worth it alone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Accolade wrote:


I'm not sure what could even be a LOW in the new DE book. There's nothing that really fits the bill except Vect, who is (at least currently) gone.

The voidraven sucked in the 5th edition codex. They could have made it a super heavy flyer, upped it's damage and points and made it a LOW. Instead they just left it as suck and gave it a new model, which no one will buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
I'd say a ten point model that has Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, becomes Fearless, and gains Rage eventually is pretty uh.. good deal.

with a 6+ save, Str3 and T3 you try it out.

The voidraven sucked in the 5th edition codex. They could have made it a super heavy flyer, upped it's damage and points and made it a LOW. Instead they just left it as suck and gave it a new model, which no one will buy.

Hmm I am buying cos I like the model - probably house rule it or something for our 40K 6.5 games

 Sir Arun wrote:
How are Darklight weapons bad? S8 AP2 lance is pretty awesome and this is coming from an Eldar player

-1 -12" range lascannons are all the rage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Templar_Grist wrote:

vipoid 618658 727605855b4f23109bb4f5979f77edc0c9a96ba.jpg wrote:

My problem is that it's a niche weapon. It's designed to take out AV14 (maybe AV13) at range, but is inefficient at everything else. Now, if you have other weapons that are good against AV10-12 and Fliers, then Dark/Bright Lances are ok. They're still not a great weapon, because they're not great even against AV14 (AP2 is unreliable, and needing a 5+ to penetrate is very undesirable for such an expensive weapon).

Looks like someone forgot how to math Lance counts everything above AV 12 as 12 . Glancing AV 10 on 2+ not bad at all. Glancing AV 11 on 3+ . Still great. AV 12-14 on 4 +. Not too shabby at all if I say so myself. And for a paltry 5pt upgrade on vehicles. How is it expensive? Whereas it's what, 25pts per lascannon?

Lascannons are 20points for marines and guard. Dark lances are 20points for DE. They are a 5 point upgrade over what is essentially a plasmacannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
Wyches are a pretty good tarp it especially if you play to manipulate the turn structure, with Urien or a Animus etc.. you can start off turn two coming in with Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, turn 3 charge you're fearless.

That's pretty damn good.

bringing 2 HQs that are gonna cost a minimum of 300 points, one that needs to be closeby and one that needs to hit, then wound something with a one shot weapon and sure you get some buffs. It isnt like there are other armies out there that have HQs that can buff things.



Animus is great for the points. But when you have to WWP in range you cannot count it's buffs turn 1. More likely you have a less than 50% chance to buff your turn number to 4 on turn 3. Or turn 5 on turn 4.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Venom has been changed massively in the state that the best units to put in it (Wyches, regardless of what nonsense Zewrath chooses to say about them being terrible) were nerfed into unplayability. The question of spamming Venoms (the most cost efficient source of Splinter weaponry in the dex) is now a hard one as it involves spamming units you probably don't want to be spamming. That being said I think I understand that your point was the model itself hasn't changed merely the units around it have, and you are correct in saying that this has done nothing for our internal balance. They improved some units ruined others. Internal balance remains shot, just means we have to buy a bunch of new models if we want to continue to play with the favourably balanced half of the dex. GG.

And what nonsense was that exactly? Please, please educate me in how Wyches were good in an edition were the best result they could get was multiple weapon destroyed on a roll of 6+.
Please educate me in how you justified spending extra points on haywire, in a later edition that was flooded with infantry, monstrous creatures, and skimmers that had 60" range which you would never ever catch. Explain to me those haywire grenades were ever useful against daemons, Eldar, bike/cent/drop pod marines, helldrakes or tau who never brought any vehicles except for perhaps the skyray. Versus taking a unit that had a 30" threath range and could threaten virtually anything in the meta.
Explain to me how they were ever useful as tarpit units when using only 5 models a time, because anything that is capable of overwatch would spell their doom. Please elaborate on why you believe it's harder to spam the venom, when the venom with warriors is now 20 points cheaper than 5th Wyches with haywire, because that's like saying water is dry.
Please, give me a full list and tactica about your venom spam with Wyches, how you somehow made them cheaper and "easier" to spam when they where one of the most expensive options to spam.

I refuted every single point in your previous post and now you just seem to go into denial.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And please, drop the "GG" "LOOOOL" attitude in discussions, it makes it even harder for people to take your claims seriously.

 Zewrath wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Venom has been changed massively in the state that the best units to put in it (Wyches, regardless of what nonsense Zewrath chooses to say about them being terrible) were nerfed into unplayability. The question of spamming Venoms (the most cost efficient source of Splinter weaponry in the dex) is now a hard one as it involves spamming units you probably don't want to be spamming. That being said I think I understand that your point was the model itself hasn't changed merely the units around it have, and you are correct in saying that this has done nothing for our internal balance. They improved some units ruined others. Internal balance remains shot, just means we have to buy a bunch of new models if we want to continue to play with the favourably balanced half of the dex. GG.

And what nonsense was that exactly? Please, please educate me in how Wyches were good in an edition were the best result they could get was multiple weapon destroyed on a roll of 6+.
Please educate me in how you justified spending extra points on haywire, in a later edition that was flooded with infantry, monstrous creatures, and skimmers that had 60" range which you would never ever catch. Explain to me those haywire grenades were ever useful against daemons, Eldar, bike/cent/drop pod marines, helldrakes or tau who never brought any vehicles except for perhaps the skyray. Versus taking a unit that had a 30" threath range and could threaten virtually anything in the meta.
Explain to me how they were ever useful as tarpit units when using only 5 models a time, because anything that is capable of overwatch would spell their doom. Please elaborate on why you believe it's harder to spam the venom, when the venom with warriors is now 20 points cheaper than 5th Wyches with haywire, because that's like saying water is dry.
Please, give me a full list and tactica about your venom spam with Wyches, how you somehow made them cheaper and "easier" to spam when they where one of the most expensive options to spam.

I refuted every single point in your previous post and now you just seem to go into denial.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And please, drop the "GG" "LOOOOL" attitude in discussions, it makes it even harder for people to take your claims seriously.

I decided not to respond to your post as it felt as though you were fishing for a flame war and I didn't feel it was going to continue into a productive discussion, not least of which due to your lack of an open minded approach to different opinions. Also, before you talk about my attitude being a hard one to take seriously (GG'ing a terrible decision from GW as though it affects you personally), perhaps you should take a look at improving at your own. All from the one post:

 Zewrath wrote:
Okay, that's the most pretentious amount of bs I've heard in a long time, so allow me to educate you in your borderline slowed notions.

 Zewrath wrote:
Are you fething slowed?

 Zewrath wrote:
you're beyond stupid

 Zewrath wrote:
Sit the feth down and let the grown ups talk instead of spouting nonsense

EDIT: It's all been red-texted out of your post by a mod since I made this reply, but I guess that is point and case.

Nice. And to valid points such as me saying "arguing the merits and failings of how a unit performed in 40k 5th ed 5 years ago before the changes to Haywire, is pretty irrelevant to 7th edition balance discussion" you responded with nothing more than

 Zewrath wrote:
bs, again.

All around your post added very little of intellectual value and did not really justify a response, especially since with your attitude I highly doubt you would be willing to admit a misconception of a good unit even if God himself appeared to you, gave you 10 commandments, and the first one was "#thou shalt admit Wyches were not a terrible unit in 6th ed"


That being said, a couple of further mistakes in your statements - I never said Wyches with HWG were cheaper than Wyches without HWG (how does that make sense) I quite clearly said that they were cheaper than the option of taking Blasterborn. Your response that Warriors have 30" threat range when mounted on a Venom is erroneous to the statement that Warriors restrict the threat range of a Venom as you are including the move speed of the Venom on it, Warriors at the end of the day have 2/3 the range of a Venom (even assuming you want to be on the long half of rapid fire range) and the exact same role, hence either neutering one or the other in the same objective, whereas Wyches needing to disembark at close range was for the delivery of an extremely hard hitting AT unit, a completely different role making the range sacrifice more justifiable, and often not even one at all because of the different positioning between the two completely different targets, and also a unique role that Wyches perform cost-effectively in comparison to any other unit in the dex, unlike Warriors who have less splinter shots than Venom when taken in the same number of points even in rapid fire range, 1/3 the damage projection, and not even comparable mobility, making them completely cost inefficient for this role.

Also, you thinking that Haywire in general is bad because it doesn't affect Daemons or other MCs is a pretty good indicator of why you aren't grasping why Wyches were amazing and the synergy between our strengths and their supporting roles. Tell me, with 6-9 Venoms on the field, is it really at all relevant what our AT can do to MCs, when our anti-infantry can just shred them? You mention Cents as though Warriors can do anything here, and talk as tho Wyches could not tarpit them amazingly because overwatch. Now sorry, but that deserves a "lol". Overwatch in general isn't going to stop them tarpitting, not against Cents but ESPECIALLY not vs an MC who you act as though Warriors will completely outclass Wyches against, when Wyches can fully knock out a Riptide or Wraithknights shooting for at least a few turns. Only time overwatch is going to possibly cripple a unit is vs GEQ blobs, whom Wyches actually can trade well with in CC and whom you obviously need multiple squads for anyway, but admittedly this isn't a role they do perfectly, however nor is it one Warriors can chew threw and is a little issue for our army in general that we take other units to deal with. However just because blobs don't trade as well with our Splintershooting as MCs do, it often doesn't matter too much as the amount of anti-infantry shooting we have is often enough to drown anything out once the core threats are down, and acting as though taking Haywire is going to open up a bunch of anti-infantry holes in your list as Dark Eldar is ridiculous. Our anti infantry capabilities are the reason why Haywire synergies so well with us possibly better than any other army. But whatever core army concepts are a bother trying to wrap our heads around, let's just say Wyches suck because Haywire doesn't affect MCs and skimmers are hard to catch (as though DL is a more cost effective solution for skimmers, or as though everyone didn't just end assault skimmers with beastpacks or using our skimmers board control and number advantage to push them into a position where one could get an assault of with Wyches, or as though Warriors are going to be so much better in a match up against an army with skimmers, or should we say Eldar Necron and The mirror match, in all of which they are absolutely useless firepower after your Venoms).

You seem highly stuck in the 5th mind state, when Blasterborn WERE a necessary choice for extra AT, even though in current 40k they paint a target on 3 paper thin Venoms and are rarely going to make their points back, this was an edition with less long ranged above average strength weaponry, Venoms were harder to kill due to game mechanics, and also there was simply no other decent AT option - I ran Blasterborn in 5th, you had to. 6th however changes that and gave us the excellent tool of Wyches, who hits tanks just as hard as Blasterborn, except doing it without such a "all eggs in 3 Venoms" approach, 6 squads of whom coming to a cheaper prices than taking 3 Blasterborn/3warriors in Venoms as well,. The changes in 7th to chances of vehicle explosion and the reliance of glancing something to death further secured Wyches strengths over Blasterborn. Arguing this with statements like

 Zewrath wrote:

They were [bad], they still are. It was cemented on the release of 5th edition.

Is not only illogical, it's also extremely shortsighted and not contributing much to strategical discussion. They were not cemented as anything by their original release. As editions changes how rules work, so do models who interact with these rules change. I know you aren't going to admit any mistake here as you are quite clearly invested in this a little too much on an emotional level, but it's something for you to maybe mull over, that maybe your interpretation of a unit here isn't infallible. I doubt you will, but it's whatever though. Point proven that at the very least, Wyches are not the useless units you make them out to be, just because they cost a little extra points.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Spoiler:

 Zewrath wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Venom has been changed massively in the state that the best units to put in it (Wyches, regardless of what nonsense Zewrath chooses to say about them being terrible) were nerfed into unplayability. The question of spamming Venoms (the most cost efficient source of Splinter weaponry in the dex) is now a hard one as it involves spamming units you probably don't want to be spamming. That being said I think I understand that your point was the model itself hasn't changed merely the units around it have, and you are correct in saying that this has done nothing for our internal balance. They improved some units ruined others. Internal balance remains shot, just means we have to buy a bunch of new models if we want to continue to play with the favourably balanced half of the dex. GG.

And what nonsense was that exactly? Please, please educate me in how Wyches were good in an edition were the best result they could get was multiple weapon destroyed on a roll of 6+.
Please educate me in how you justified spending extra points on haywire, in a later edition that was flooded with infantry, monstrous creatures, and skimmers that had 60" range which you would never ever catch. Explain to me those haywire grenades were ever useful against daemons, Eldar, bike/cent/drop pod marines, helldrakes or tau who never brought any vehicles except for perhaps the skyray. Versus taking a unit that had a 30" threath range and could threaten virtually anything in the meta.
Explain to me how they were ever useful as tarpit units when using only 5 models a time, because anything that is capable of overwatch would spell their doom. Please elaborate on why you believe it's harder to spam the venom, when the venom with warriors is now 20 points cheaper than 5th Wyches with haywire, because that's like saying water is dry.
Please, give me a full list and tactica about your venom spam with Wyches, how you somehow made them cheaper and "easier" to spam when they where one of the most expensive options to spam.

I refuted every single point in your previous post and now you just seem to go into denial.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And please, drop the "GG" "LOOOOL" attitude in discussions, it makes it even harder for people to take your claims seriously.

I decided not to respond to your post as it felt as though you were fishing for a flame war and I didn't feel it was going to continue into a productive discussion, not least of which due to your lack of an open minded approach to different opinions. Also, before you talk about my attitude being a hard one to take seriously (GG'ing a terrible decision from GW as though it affects you personally), perhaps you should take a look at improving at your own. All from the one post:

 Zewrath wrote:
Okay, that's the most pretentious amount of bs I've heard in a long time, so allow me to educate you in your borderline slowed notions.

 Zewrath wrote:
Are you fething slowed?

 Zewrath wrote:
you're beyond stupid

 Zewrath wrote:
Sit the feth down and let the grown ups talk instead of spouting nonsense

EDIT: It's all been red-texted out of your post by a mod since I made this reply, but I guess that is point and case.

Nice. And to valid points such as me saying "arguing the merits and failings of how a unit performed in 40k 5th ed 5 years ago before the changes to Haywire, is pretty irrelevant to 7th edition balance discussion" you responded with nothing more than

 Zewrath wrote:
bs, again.

All around your post added very little of intellectual value and did not really justify a response, especially since with your attitude I highly doubt you would be willing to admit a misconception of a good unit even if God himself appeared to you, gave you 10 commandments, and the first one was "#thou shalt admit Wyches were not a terrible unit in 6th ed"


That being said, a couple of further mistakes in your statements - I never said Wyches with HWG were cheaper than Wyches without HWG (how does that make sense) I quite clearly said that they were cheaper than the option of taking Blasterborn. Your response that Warriors have 30" threat range when mounted on a Venom is erroneous to the statement that Warriors restrict the threat range of a Venom as you are including the move speed of the Venom on it, Warriors at the end of the day have 2/3 the range of a Venom (even assuming you want to be on the long half of rapid fire range) and the exact same role, hence either neutering one or the other in the same objective, whereas Wyches needing to disembark at close range was for the delivery of an extremely hard hitting AT unit, a completely different role making the range sacrifice more justifiable, and often not even one at all because of the different positioning between the two completely different targets, and also a unique role that Wyches perform cost-effectively in comparison to any other unit in the dex, unlike Warriors who have less splinter shots than Venom when taken in the same number of points even in rapid fire range, 1/3 the damage projection, and not even comparable mobility, making them completely cost inefficient for this role.

Also, you thinking that Haywire in general is bad because it doesn't affect Daemons or other MCs is a pretty good indicator of why you aren't grasping why Wyches were amazing and the synergy between our strengths and their supporting roles. Tell me, with 6-9 Venoms on the field, is it really at all relevant what our AT can do to MCs, when our anti-infantry can just shred them? You mention Cents as though Warriors can do anything here, and talk as tho Wyches could not tarpit them amazingly because overwatch. Now sorry, but that deserves a "lol". Overwatch in general isn't going to stop them tarpitting, not against Cents but ESPECIALLY not vs an MC who you act as though Warriors will completely outclass Wyches against, when Wyches can fully knock out a Riptide or Wraithknights shooting for at least a few turns. Only time overwatch is going to possibly cripple a unit is vs GEQ blobs, whom Wyches actually can trade well with in CC and whom you obviously need multiple squads for anyway, but admittedly this isn't a role they do perfectly, however nor is it one Warriors can chew threw and is a little issue for our army in general that we take other units to deal with. However just because blobs don't trade as well with our Splintershooting as MCs do, it often doesn't matter too much as the amount of anti-infantry shooting we have is often enough to drown anything out once the core threats are down, and acting as though taking Haywire is going to open up a bunch of anti-infantry holes in your list as Dark Eldar is ridiculous. Our anti infantry capabilities are the reason why Haywire synergies so well with us possibly better than any other army. But whatever core army concepts are a bother trying to wrap our heads around, let's just say Wyches suck because Haywire doesn't affect MCs and skimmers are hard to catch (as though DL is a more cost effective solution for skimmers, or as though everyone didn't just end assault skimmers with beastpacks or using our skimmers board control and number advantage to push them into a position where one could get an assault of with Wyches, or as though Warriors are going to be so much better in a match up against an army with skimmers, or should we say Eldar Necron and The mirror match, in all of which they are absolutely useless firepower after your Venoms).

You seem highly stuck in the 5th mind state, when Blasterborn WERE a necessary choice for extra AT, even though in current 40k they paint a target on 3 paper thin Venoms and are rarely going to make their points back, this was an edition with less long ranged above average strength weaponry, Venoms were harder to kill due to game mechanics, and also there was simply no other decent AT option - I ran Blasterborn in 5th, you had to. 6th however changes that and gave us the excellent tool of Wyches, who hits tanks just as hard as Blasterborn, except doing it without such a "all eggs in 3 Venoms" approach, 6 squads of whom coming to a cheaper prices than taking 3 Blasterborn/3warriors in Venoms as well,. The changes in 7th to chances of vehicle explosion and the reliance of glancing something to death further secured Wyches strengths over Blasterborn. Arguing this with statements like

 Zewrath wrote:

They were [bad], they still are. It was cemented on the release of 5th edition.

Is not only illogical, it's also extremely shortsighted and not contributing much to strategical discussion. They were not cemented as anything by their original release. As editions changes how rules work, so do models who interact with these rules change. I know you aren't going to admit any mistake here as you are quite clearly invested in this a little too much on an emotional level, but it's something for you to maybe mull over, that maybe your interpretation of a unit here isn't infallible. I doubt you will, but it's whatever though. Point proven that at the very least, Wyches are not the useless units you make them out to be, just because they cost a little extra points.

Yawn, what a massive wall of text that didn't disprove anything I said. You were acting condescending from the start and you were even contradicting yourself several times. Now you're even retracting some of your claims in your post also. I'm not even stuck in the 5th edition mind state and again, you're making pretentious post about how I ran my trueborns. Whatever, your last post was at least better written than the others, even if it was a massive waste of time.

Furthermore, to add to the growing fallacious claims, you somehow interpreted my post in a way so you think I ever said Wyches with haywire are cheaper than those without? Yeah, no.. You're not only ignorant, you're also fishing.

not tarpit them amazingly because overwatch. Now sorry, but that deserves a "lol".

Really? You think because there's that 1 special snowflake unit that you can assault, suddenly overwatch suddenly stops mattering at all? How do you even reach cents with Wyches? Why even bother and not hang back and pump them with poisoned shots? How well do you think your Wyches will fare against 4 cents, a chapter master and/or a librarian? You seem to not be aware of what the term "tarpiting" means

Overwatch in general isn't going to stop them tarpitting, not against Cents but ESPECIALLY not vs an MC who you act as though Warriors will completely outclass Wyches against, when Wyches can fully knock out a Riptide or Wraithknights shooting for at least a few turns.

I'm sorry, what? How will you ever catch a Riptide that moves 12" and can move up to 4d6 afterwards? And overwatch not being a problem? Dude.. Do you even know Tau and how their overwatch operate?
Same with Wraith Knights, how would your Wyches ever catch them? Especially versus an army that can lay waste to over half your venoms in a single turn of fire. And yes, the Warriors outclassed the Wyches against both these MC, actually they do with just about any MC ever conceived. Forcing saves on the Wraith Knight is infinitely better than trying to melee with the monster and hope you could tie them up.

Agree to disagree then. Have fun with the new codex.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Agree to disagree then. Have fun with the new codex.

Oh, sure. Also, do me the favor of never discussing competetive, or indeed any level of 40k since going by how you think overwatch works and the examples you provided above, you clearly don't know much about that subject.

lol. Your e-warrior pants are on tight today.

 Zewrath wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Agree to disagree then. Have fun with the new codex.

Oh, sure. Also, do me the favor of never discussing competetive, or indeed any level of 40k since going by how you think overwatch works and the examples you provided above, you clearly don't know much about that subject.

Considering how you've been analyzing wyches using 5th edition rules as though that's in any way relevant, I dunno if you should be trying either.

Wyches in 6th/7th clearly filled a cost-effective AT role via haywire grenades, in an army that struggled to bring AT to bear. It was a bit stupid and unfluffy that this was all they were good for, but whatever, 40k is a stupid and unfluffy game. They were also a cheap way to unlock a Venom, which brought more than enough highly mobile poisoned shooting in a small package, so it's not really important that wyches couldn't tackle MCs on their own. The two units played together well, covering lots of bases for a low points cost, and now wyches may as well not be taken. SHUPPET already covered all this.

Anyway since this is all getting very off-topic, I have to disagree completely with the OP. I remember when the last DE dex dropped - now THAT was a truly unique and fairly good codex at the time. Internal balance was still pants, but Dark Eldar had a very distinct feel and playstyle. Coupled with an absolutely amazing range of new models, it's no wonder everyone went crazy for them.

This codex looks like the old codex with some rules re-worded and flavor removed. Maybe internal balance is a little better, looks like external balance is a sidegrade at best. This has been par for the course for a long time now. I would hardly call anything about it unique or good.

I agree the codex is a good one.

Dark Eldar were always different, that is the reason i have them.
And i personally liked the previous codex less and the one before a lot more (the first version of the web portal).
But the new one seems to be good.

I don't care much for all those non-Dark-Eldar aliens in the retinue, the regular Dark Eldar being an interesting army is the best thing about the codex.

And yes, Wyches (i have 3 units) are not as good now, but they still have their use and are better then they used to be when used later on in the game.
Dark Eldar do not have psykers, but in the current rules a few Eldar psykers are not a problem and they can add A LOT of value to the regular Dark Eldar units.

Just 5 Wyches can tarpit Centurions, Wraithknights, Riptides, a bunch of TMCs, actually to be honest, almost anything if you throw enough at it I mean you pack 6 squads.

How well do you think your Wyches will fare against 4 cents, a chapter master and/or a librarian?

Well, they can overwatch 1 squad out of 3 and still likely be tarpitted by 13-14 Wyches... those 15 Wyches costed half the price of the 4 Centurions ALONE... Even two squads would probably take a lot of firepower out of the game for at least 2 turns, for just 120 pts... this strikes me as one of the best units you could run across to get a decent tarpit against, but meh whatever. You know how to tarpit best right.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Agree to disagree then. Have fun with the new codex.

Oh, sure. Also, do me the favor of never discussing competetive, or indeed any level of 40k since going by how you think overwatch works and the examples you provided above, you clearly don't know much about that subject.

Considering how you've been analyzing wyches using 5th edition rules as though that's in any way relevant, I dunno if you should be trying either.

Wyches in 6th/7th clearly filled a cost-effective AT role via haywire grenades, in an army that struggled to bring AT to bear. It was a bit stupid and unfluffy that this was all they were good for, but whatever, 40k is a stupid and unfluffy game. They were also a cheap way to unlock a Venom, which brought more than enough highly mobile poisoned shooting in a small package, so it's not really important that wyches couldn't tackle MCs on their own. The two units played together well, covering lots of bases for a low points cost, and now wyches may as well not be taken. SHUPPET already covered all this.

Anyway since this is all getting very off-topic, I have to disagree completely with the OP. I remember when the last DE dex dropped - now THAT was a truly unique and fairly good codex at the time. Internal balance was still pants, but Dark Eldar had a very distinct feel and playstyle. Coupled with an absolutely amazing range of new models, it's no wonder everyone went crazy for them.

This codex looks like the old codex with some rules re-worded and flavor removed. Maybe internal balance is a little better, looks like external balance is a sidegrade at best. This has been par for the course for a long time now. I would hardly call anything about it unique or good.

I compared them from 5th to 6th and pre update 7th.
Learn to read. You're also wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Just 5 Wyches can tarpit Centurions, Wraithknights, Riptides, a bunch of TMCs, actually to be honest, almost anything if you throw enough at it I mean you pack 6 squads.

How well do you think your Wyches will fare against 4 cents, a chapter master and/or a librarian?

Well, they can overwatch 1 squad out of 3 and still likely be tarpitted by 13-14 Wyches... those 15 Wyches costed half the price of the 4 Centurions ALONE... Even two squads would probably take a lot of firepower out of the game for at least 2 turns, for just 120 pts... this strikes me as one of the best units you could run across to get a decent tarpit against, but meh whatever. You know how to tarpit best right.

You keep avoiding the question of how you think you're able to bring multiple squads to combat, when realistically your Wyches will never reach anything before getting shot to pieces.

Yet you think Blasterborn are a good choice?

Let me know when you've caught up to 6th ed, we can help ease the transition to 7th, it'll help make this whole unit strategy discussion a lot easier.

I'm not responding to any further posts as it's quite clear you are pretty close minded and really just interested in trolling and flaming.


Have a nice day.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Yet you think Blasterborn are a good choice?

Let me know when you've caught up to 6th ed, we can help ease the transition to 7th, it'll help make this whole unit strategy discussion a lot easier.

I'm not responding to any further posts as it's quite clear you are pretty close minded and really just interested in trolling and flaming.


Have a nice day.

When did I ever claim that they were the best choice? Did I ever claim that they were mandatory in any other edition than 5th?

You're the troll here. You're making outrageous strawman arguments and have no idea how DE works in any other place than your beer and pretzel meta.
You never answered how you realistically ever got to dig in your Wyches in combat. Your optimistic ideas of how they can easily assault MC are ludicrous and beyond unrealistic. You never answered how haywire was worthwhile in a edition that was dominated by all the armies I mentioned above, in 6th edition. You're the one who needs to catch up to 6th edition, because those armies I mentioned were absurdly dominant and neither of them EVER had any Vehicles or anything Wyches could hope to combat.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Venom has been changed massively in the state that the best units to put in it (Wyches, regardless of what nonsense Zewrath chooses to say about them being terrible) were nerfed into unplayability. The question of spamming Venoms (the most cost efficient source of Splinter weaponry in the dex) is now a hard one as it involves spamming units you probably don't want to be spamming. That being said I think I understand that your point was the model itself hasn't changed merely the units around it have, and you are correct in saying that this has done nothing for our internal balance. They improved some units ruined others. Internal balance remains shot, just means we have to buy a bunch of new models if we want to continue to play with the favourably balanced half of the dex. GG.

You can take a double CAD realspace raiders detachment and have access to 12 fast slots. Venoms are easier to spam and cheaper because now you don't have to take a troop tax to unlock them.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
You can take a double CAD realspace raiders detachment and have access to 12 fast slots. Venoms are easier to spam and cheaper because now you don't have to take a troop tax to unlock them.

I'm glad that 7th edition has made troops taxes again.

I thought 5th edition making them an integral part of the missions was very tiresome - especially since it restricted people's abilities to just spam the most broken units possible.

 vipoid wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
You can take a double CAD realspace raiders detachment and have access to 12 fast slots. Venoms are easier to spam and cheaper because now you don't have to take a troop tax to unlock them.

I'm glad that 7th edition has made troops taxes again.

I thought 5th edition making them an integral part of the missions was very tiresome - especially since it restricted people's abilities to just spam the most broken units possible.

I thought it was dumb that only troops could score. You're meaning to tell me those trueborn who are better than warriors fluff wise couldn't hold onto a relic? Gimme a break.

Secondly, we were discussing venom spam, and its clearly more viable than it was in the previous edition. Thanks in part to it being fast attack, and now cheaper due to no troops.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Venom has been changed massively in the state that the best units to put in it (Wyches, regardless of what nonsense Zewrath chooses to say about them being terrible) were nerfed into unplayability. The question of spamming Venoms (the most cost efficient source of Splinter weaponry in the dex) is now a hard one as it involves spamming units you probably don't want to be spamming. That being said I think I understand that your point was the model itself hasn't changed merely the units around it have, and you are correct in saying that this has done nothing for our internal balance. They improved some units ruined others. Internal balance remains shot, just means we have to buy a bunch of new models if we want to continue to play with the favourably balanced half of the dex. GG.

You can take a double CAD realspace raiders detachment and have access to 12 fast slots. Venoms are easier to spam and cheaper because now you don't have to take a troop tax to unlock them.

This is actually an interesting concept... Dual CADs are generally not allowed in Australian tourneys or events, however if I was in a different country I'd strongly consider doing something like this... But at the end of the day it still takes 4 units of Warriors and extra HQ as opposed to 6 warriors to spam venoms, so the savings are small but is a decent way to get more Venoms than 6

I think a good way of getting two more in is the Firstblood Wrack formation if I read that right. At least Wracks in Venoms are justifiable.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

I thought it was dumb that only troops could score. You're meaning to tell me those trueborn who are better than warriors fluff wise couldn't hold onto a relic? Gimme a break.

It was certainly arbitrary, but it was far better than the current mess - where even empty transports and immobile drop pods can somehow score objectives.

Making troops scoring added an important tactical element to the game - it made troops the core of armies for all objective missions and also gave you a sort of alternate win scenario. i.e. even if you couldn't kill your opponent's army, you could focus on his troops - thus preventing his ability to score. When everything can score - including any death stars, MCs, Wave Serpents, Super Heavies etc. that the opponent is using, that tactical element simply doesn't exist.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

Secondly, we were discussing venom spam, and its clearly more viable than it was in the previous edition. Thanks in part to it being fast, and now cheaper due to no troops.

No, we're discussing the whole codex. And, if troops are nothing more than a tax, then it doesn't speak well of said codex.

Viroid you are right, I think the set up was theoretically better last edition

However I say theoretically, as in a world in which every army has playable troops

Now when SM had Biker troops, you know actual really good models from their dex, and on the flip side of the coin Tyranids have Hormagants and Genestealers, basically minimum size minimum mandatory troop tax units, it can kind of unlevel the playing field the just having one side scoring by nature and the other side either havin nothing nor a completely ridiculous list that is going to lose regardless of scoring.

That is however a problem of the codexes, not the core rule set. I think if all the codexes were balanced properly, the old way is better, however in this stupid 40k that GW has built, the current way helps a little.


Regardless of all that, the troop changes to DE are really really bad.

text removed.

Reds8n

Please refresh yourself of the rules of conduct for this site.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Viroid you are right, I think the set up was theoretically better last edition

However I say theoretically, as in a world in which every army has playable troops

Now when SM had Biker troops, you know actual really good models from their dex, and on the flip side of the coin Tyranids have Hormagants and Genestealers, basically minimum size minimum mandatory troop tax units, it can kind of unlevel the playing field the just having one side scoring by nature and the other side either havin nothing nor a completely ridiculous list that is going to lose regardless of scoring.

That is however a problem of the codexes, not the core rule set. I think if all the codexes were balanced properly, the old way is better, however in this stupid 40k that GW has built, the current way helps a little.


Regardless of all that, the troop changes to DE are really really bad.

I know what you mean, but I think the current rules actually cause at least some of the major issues associated with troops. After all, the main concern with a lot of troops is that basic weapons just don't have a great impact on the game (and most troops can only take a very limited number of special/heavy weapons). It's often better to take other units (frequently vehicles or MCs) that are both more durable and carry more high-calibre weapons. This, of course, makes basic troops even worse - because there are now even fewer infantry units around (so basic guns have even fewer viable targets). So, what do people do? Well, the most likely answer is that they look to other units - like vehicles or MCs - since their weapons are better at dealing with the other spammed MCs and Vehicles around.

So, what we end up with is a cycle that encourages people to take fewer and fewer infantry.

 Zewrath wrote:

Finally, something that isn't bs and actually relevant to the game and how it realistically plays. Took you long enough.

Could you be more condescending, please?

 vipoid wrote:

Could you be more condescending, please?

I certainly could, it's hard not to when people make strawman fallacies, condescending assumptions, purposely misinterprets what I write and answers to none of my questions, while having all his own refuted. What ever, I'm done with this. I can't make blind people see.

I think the Dark Eldar codex is fairly well done and represents a army theme well, I however disagree with the OP, I think all of the 7th edition codexes represent the armies very well in a unique way.

blaktoof wrote:
I think the Dark Eldar codex is fairly well done and represents a army theme well, I however disagree with the OP, I think all of the 7th edition codexes represent the armies very well in a unique way.

Sadly I don't think it covers all the basic army types of army a Dark Eldar player would run - so a full Wych Cult - as described and highlighted at length in the Codex fluff is heavily penalised by what should be their standout models - the Wyches.

Does a Hormulclus themed cult work without the expensive supplement?

Does a Wraith Army work without the expensive supplement? Yes, of course it ''can work'', but it's not playing at the full effect. And for the record, compare what you get the in Covens supplement to what you got in the Iyanden supplement and you will see a massive improvement. The Coven supplement got 5 (?) new formations, all of which are good enough for gaming, some of which could be considered competitive. You get new Warlord Traits, army wide special rules, Relics and a massive amount of fluff and artwork.

So yes, Coven armies work, just throw some Grots in a Webway Portal and you can't go to far wrong, but if you are playing a Coven army and not using the Supplement, you are handicapping yourself. I guess it's expensive, but at least it contains more then the Knight Codex or the Scions one...