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Well, it *does* cost a Rhino plus a battle tank. But yeah, overpowered.

1) I would say the Serpent is overrated, but still OP. It is awesome, but it does have it's weaknesses. Perhaps this isn't the right thread to go over it again then. Feel free to write up a new thread, but lets not derail this one?

2) Dire Avengers are both overrated and underrated. Half the community regards them as nothing more than Serpent tax. The other half seem to think they can wipe out whole tac squads in a single salvo.

3) Dev Squads as counterassault units for UltraMarines (and descendants), when facing Tide-style armies. Relentless before countercharging, before the Orkz (or whatever) gets to charge? Quite brutal.

Bharring wrote:

1) I would say the Serpent is overrated, but still OP. It is awesome, but it does have it's weaknesses. Perhaps this isn't the right thread to go over it again then. Feel free to write up a new thread, but lets not derail this one?

Thank you. Some people let "OP" cloud their judgement and think that it's widely agreed these things have the survivability of a superheavy and the damage output of a D weapon. No, it's just overpowered in the sense that for it's points cost and available (easily spammable) there's nothing that can really match it in both strength and durability. Doesn't make it unstoppable, definitely OP however. Now, morgoth has said he's done with this thread, so perhaps we can continue on with the original topic, nothing wrong with a bit of debate, but just derailing this into a Wave Serpent debate of the people vs morgoth, for the 50,000th time, is completely unproductive

Big Blind Bill wrote:

On the real topic, I don't think waveserpents are misunderstood by the internet. They are universally regarded as one of, if not the best transports in the game,

What exactly are they transporting that matters? At best they become Objective Secured (which makes the list of "rules overrated by the internet) by carrying some worthless Troop unit.

Wave serpents are a transport vehicle. They are considered to be a very powerful vehicle, and taken by many Eldar lists. The only way to take them is as a dedicated transport. They are therefore one of the best transport vehicles in the game.

The point over what they carry is not important to my point. The fact is that they are a transport vehicle, and I simply called them as such.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The issue with the wave serpent is that it can claim objectives, put out as much firepower as a Leman Russ tank (and land more of it more accurately in many cases), zip around wherever the hell it wants, can gain a 3+ jink in the open at will (and still land a decent number of shots), has incredible range, and can deliver troops if they're needed. It does practically everything and does it well.

Good.

So if the Wave Serpent does not have as much firepower as an LR tank, and does lose 66% of its DPS when jinking, and only has 36" effective range (34" because of where the turret is), then everything's fine right ?

What exactly are they transporting that matters? At best they become Objective Secured (which makes the list of "rules overrated by the internet) by carrying some worthless Troop unit.

It's because they are a transport that it matters. You can take 6 WS and still not sacrifice any of your HS, FA or Elites slots, that's insane.

 Zewrath wrote:

What exactly are they transporting that matters? At best they become Objective Secured (which makes the list of "rules overrated by the internet) by carrying some worthless Troop unit.

It's because they are a transport that it matters. You can take 6 WS and still not sacrifice any of your HS, FA or Elites slots, that's insane.

Says the guy with an IG profile picture.

The only reason there's so much whine about Eldar and WS is that they're not IoM.

morgoth wrote:

Says the guy with an IG profile picture.

Oh no! Not Imperial Guard! They get all the good stuff.

I mean, who'd want to zoom around shooting TL S6 shots and TL S7 Ignore cover shots when you can crawl around shooting BS3 heavy bolters and multilasers? Yeah, stuff those guard players.

morgoth wrote:
The only reason there's so much whine about Eldar and WS is that they're not IoM.

Yep, that's the only possible reason.



Remember kids - if there's a fact you don't like, just go into denial until reality itself warps around you.

Morgoth:
The only reason you whine so much about people complaining about the wave serpent is because then you will have to admit that your victories are diluted by you using a unit that everybody else knows is overpowered. Now change the track, or maybe post people links to where you have repeated the same garbage again and again rather than derailing yet another thread because you are scared of admitting your victories are not as impressive as you believe.
Even better - go play regularly with another army to gain others respect.
Not saying eldar players don't deserve respect, saying eldar players who have never played another army (not just one offs) yet come on here telling people how to use other armies and how poor other people are with other armies, deserve less respect than their undeserved gigantic heads believe they do.
Again - stop derailing yet another thread with the same thing again and again and again and again... post a link.
The OP does not want 12 pages of your repeated moaning again. I imagine he/she would like other units discussed as well.

morgoth wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

What exactly are they transporting that matters? At best they become Objective Secured (which makes the list of "rules overrated by the internet) by carrying some worthless Troop unit.

It's because they are a transport that it matters. You can take 6 WS and still not sacrifice any of your HS, FA or Elites slots, that's insane.

Says the guy with an IG profile picture.

The only reason there's so much whine about Eldar and WS is that they're not IoM.

Lol. No, seriously, top insuinuating bias when there is none. Objectively the WS is the best transport out there, for its points, in terms of survivability and damage output. per point.

Troll serpents.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/621226.page#7317943
There we go started a new one for you.
Now people will not have to sift through tons of wave serpent argument to try and discuss other units.

 vipoid wrote:
Oh no! Not Imperial Guard! They get all the good stuff.

There's nothing like goldfish memory is there ?

morgoth wrote:
There's nothing like goldfish memory is there ?

Sorry, I wasn't aware that we'd gone back in time to 5th edition. How remiss of me.

Poly Ranger wrote:



The only reason you whine so much about people complaining about the wave serpent is because then you will have to admit that your victories are diluted by you using a unit that everybody else knows is overpowered. Now change the track, or maybe post people links to where you have repeated the same garbage again and again rather than derailing yet another thread because you are scared of admitting your victories are not as impressive as you believe.

Omg I've bookmarked a link to this post and will be quoting it everytime morgoth does this crap.

I wish someone with a little more time on my hands could submit a detailed report to dakka mods. Derails every single thread he clicks on with this crap? Rude attitude to boot? Refusal to engage in actual discussion instead preferring a word slinging match? He's just incredibly bad at foruming and this game in general, why is he trying to tutor high level players with low level nonsense?

Poly Ranger wrote:
Morgoth:
The only reason you whine so much about people complaining about the wave serpent is because then you will have to admit that your victories are diluted by you using a unit that everybody else knows is overpowered. Now change the track, or maybe post people links to where you have repeated the same garbage again and again rather than derailing yet another thread because you are scared of admitting your victories are not as impressive as you believe.
Even better - go play regularly with another army to gain others respect.
Not saying eldar players don't deserve respect, saying eldar players who have never played another army (not just one offs) yet come on here telling people how to use other armies and how poor other people are with other armies, deserve less respect than their undeserved gigantic heads believe they do.
Again - stop derailing yet another thread with the same thing again and again and again and again... post a link.
The OP does not want 12 pages of your repeated moaning again. I imagine he/she would like other units discussed as well.

Just to clairfy - there's someone who runs a Wave Serpent list, who then boasts about their victories because Serpents aren't that powerful and that the other players aren't very good ?

Bartali wrote:

Just to clairfy - there's someone who runs a Wave Serpent list, who then boasts about their victories because Serpents aren't that powerful and that the other players aren't very good ?

There are probably such people.

But instead, Poly Ranger would like to picture me as such because I dare offer the possibility that the Wave Serpent is just one among many excellent units in 40K.

SM Honor Guard (only one i can think of)
- fairly cheapish for 5 [EDIT: Min size is 3 for more points pinching.]
- Comes with bolter w/ the PW and BP to help with Anti-infantry shooting
- Can mix and match power weapons to be versatile against several different threats (barring the TH and RBs).
- Comes with a Chapter Master at no-slot cost (allowing for a chaplain/librarian [Ergo a command squad too])
- 2+ armor means any fire directed at terminators/centurions might get directed to these guys

morgoth wrote:

Bartali wrote:

Just to clairfy - there's someone who runs a Wave Serpent list, who then boasts about their victories because Serpents aren't that powerful and that the other players aren't very good ?

There are probably such people.

But instead, Poly Ranger would like to picture me as such because I dare offer the possibility that the Wave Serpent is just one among many excellent units in 40K.

No it's because you derail every thread with this same crap and I've never heard you once admit that Wave Serpents are OP btw you clearly argue that they are a balanced unit and every other codex is underpowered. Which is just a narrow and bias point of view and you just struggle to realise that you losing games with Wave Serpents isn't because he units are worse than people say they are, it's because your dice were bad or your playskill is bad. I think everyone here can tell it's the latter however based on your low level face value interpretation of units and refusal to try to comprehend any logic that would go disassemble your complex about your skill level at this game. You will never get better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Holy gak this thread got off topic quickly


Just as it always does when Morgoth clicks submit

So over this guy lol

 ace101 wrote:
SM Honor Guard (only one i can think of)
- fairly cheapish for 5 [EDIT: Min size is 3 for more points pinching.]
- Comes with bolter w/ the PW and BP to help with Anti-infantry shooting
- Can mix and match power weapons to be versatile against several different threats (barring the TH and RBs).
- Comes with a Chapter Master at no-slot cost (allowing for a chaplain/librarian [Ergo a command squad too])
- 2+ armor means any fire directed at terminators/centurions might get directed to these guys

With you on this! Awsome for their price tag. As long as you can get them into assault and build a list around/to help them they can easily be worth their points.

Wytches - Underrated. Everyone thinks they're bad without having actually tried them out. And those who take a risk suddenly realize that PfP makes them quite worthy mellee fighters.

Not bothering with 7th ed but in 6th I tried them a lot and they were awful at melee - they could on a good day survive it quite well but actually killing stuff - rubbish at it, especially anything in armour was highly unlikely - it didn't help that these "close combat masters" only hit most opponents on a 4+. I gave up and stuck to Incubi - at least they can kill things.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Not bothering with 7th ed but in 6th I tried them a lot and they were awful at melee - they could on a good day survive it quite well but actually killing stuff - rubbish at it, especially anything in armour was highly unlikely - it didn't help that these "close combat masters" only hit most opponents on a 4+. I gave up and stuck to Incubi - at least they can kill things.

My experiences were much the same.

Though, I struggled to even get a squad of them into combat - frequently they just got shredded by overwatch fire.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Wytches - Underrated. Everyone thinks they're bad without having actually tried them out. And those who take a risk suddenly realize that PfP makes them quite worthy mellee fighters.

Not bothering with 7th ed but in 6th I tried them a lot and they were awful at melee - they could on a good day survive it quite well but actually killing stuff - rubbish at it, especially anything in armour was highly unlikely - it didn't help that these "close combat masters" only hit most opponents on a 4+. I gave up and stuck to Incubi - at least they can kill things.

Oh dear, don't open that can of worms please. OP played a 6th meta riddled with vehicles, so 6xHaywire Wyches was a must! Yup! Really helps vs daemons, Eldar, Bike Marines, Hell Drakes, Psybolt spam/psyflemen and Tau. He still thinks I played 6th edition with only Blasterborns, but hey.. Atleast the T5 2+ save Oblits are a terrible unit when compared to the Lascanon Havocs..
Yeah, I've seen enough.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 ace101 wrote:
SM Honor Guard (only one i can think of)
- fairly cheapish for 5 [EDIT: Min size is 3 for more points pinching.]
- Comes with bolter w/ the PW and BP to help with Anti-infantry shooting
- Can mix and match power weapons to be versatile against several different threats (barring the TH and RBs).
- Comes with a Chapter Master at no-slot cost (allowing for a chaplain/librarian [Ergo a command squad too])
- 2+ armor means any fire directed at terminators/centurions might get directed to these guys

With you on this! Awsome for their price tag. As long as you can get them into assault and build a list around/to help them they can easily be worth their points.

Agreed. I think since the 6th Ed C:SM these guys have to be the best cargo for a SM Land Raider assault. More attacks/wounds per point than Termies, better Save and shooting than Vanguard, and at only 25ppm? Brilliant stuff. Throw in a Chaplain for those lovely re-rolls and a banner for the extra attacks and you're hacking through almost anything!

Wytches are underrated because people fail to grasp a simple factor of assault.

You don't need to be great at it, you just need to be better than the guy on the other side, when prices are compared.

And given that they are pretty cheap, and better than most things in their price zone in CC, they make valuable units.

After all, once they hit CC, they got a 4++, and quite possibly FnP. even with mere T3, its enough to block out the damage of most simple infantry in the game, and with 3 hidden weapons in a team, the can deliver good damage to other light infantry.

As long you treat them as what they are, rather than what you want them to be-cheapish light assault troopers to kill other light infantry-they do a fair job.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Wytches - Underrated. Everyone thinks they're bad without having actually tried them out. And those who take a risk suddenly realize that PfP makes them quite worthy mellee fighters.

Not bothering with 7th ed but in 6th I tried them a lot and they were awful at melee - they could on a good day survive it quite well but actually killing stuff - rubbish at it, especially anything in armour was highly unlikely - it didn't help that these "close combat masters" only hit most opponents on a 4+. I gave up and stuck to Incubi - at least they can kill things.

Have you tried them in 7?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Wytches are underrated because people fail to grasp a simple factor of assault.

You don't need to be great at it, you just need to be better than the guy on the other side, when prices are compared.

And given that they are pretty cheap, and better than most things in their price zone in CC, they make valuable units.

After all, once they hit CC, they got a 4++, and quite possibly FnP. even with mere T3, its enough to block out the damage of most simple infantry in the game, and with 3 hidden weapons in a team, the can deliver good damage to other light infantry.

As long you treat them as what they are, rather than what you want them to be-cheapish light assault troopers to kill other light infantry-they do a fair job.

I want them to match the fluff - so no I am not at all happy with them. I would rather they were more expensive and good - or at least have the Hekatrixes be something or a bridge between them and the Succubus stats. Please note I don't want them as haywire grenade carriers either.

Have you tried them in 7?

I am not playing 7th Ed - the Dark Eldar Codex in two parts for £60 nailed shut that coffin.

On the OP - I have always enjoyed using my Incubi which matched the fluff pretty much

 Mr Morden wrote:


I want them to match the fluff - so no I am not at all happy with them. I would rather they were more expensive and good - or at least have the Hekatrixes be something or a bridge between them and the Succubus stats. Please note I don't want them as haywire grenade carriers either.

Have you tried them in 7?

I am not playing 7th Ed - the Dark Eldar Codex in two parts for £60 nailed shut that coffin.

On the OP - I have always enjoyed using my Incubi which matched the fluff pretty much

Yeah, the nerfs and changes to Wyches and Hellions was uncalled for.. IDK why GW hates assault units, lol.

 vipoid wrote:

Remember kids - if there's a fact you don't like, just go into denial until reality itself warps around you.

It worked for Horus and Genma Saotome.

I'm going to add something that I think a lot of people have misconceptions on - Splinter weaponry. Not necessarily a unit, but still - people think its some amazing anti-infantry weaponry, when its not - against GEQ its S3 AP-, against T4 its a bolter with no ap. You really only start seeing some good return against T5 or higher, and against MC's the weight of fire can bring them down cheaper than other armies can, but at the end of the day it's not top tier anti-infantry at all, being more specialised against elite units to even be worthwhile. I do appreciate the weight of fire on Venoms and the like, but even 6 squads of Warriors with Splinter Rifles firing in rapid fire range (where the Venom never wants to be) are only going to kill 5 marines. The warriors are very unlikely to ever make their points back, if I had to name one overrated unit its Warriors. Although, now you don't really have a choice anymore lol.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'm going to add something that I think a lot of people have misconceptions on - Splinter weaponry. Not necessarily a unit, but still - people think its some amazing anti-infantry weaponry, when its not - against GEQ its S3 AP-, against T4 its a bolter with no ap. You really only start seeing some good return against T5 or higher, and against MC's the weight of fire can bring them down cheaper than other armies can, but at the end of the day it's not top tier anti-infantry at all, being more specialised against elite units to even be worthwhile. I do appreciate the weight of fire on Venoms and the like, but even 6 squads of Warriors with Splinter Rifles firing in rapid fire range (where the Venom never wants to be) are only going to kill 5 marines. The warriors are very unlikely to ever make their points back, if I had to name one overrated unit its Warriors. Although, now you don't really have a choice anymore lol.

Just a minor point, but against GEQ it's S3 AP5. I bring this up simply because most GEQ units only have 5+ saves, so the AP does matter.

Regardless, I agree with your overall point.

Although, I think what people miss is what we seemingly exchange for all that poison shooting - in that we get very little in the way of special or heavy weapons. I mean, Warriors get to choose between:
- A Dark Lance
- Another Dark Lance
- Some overpriced splinter shots
- A poor-man's flamer

What we don't get is stuff like plasmaguns - which are also good against things like MCs and bikers, but are also useful against other targets as well. Or, anything like Autocannons or Assault Cannons on our vehicles - weapons that can pull double-duty against MCs, bikers and light transports.

I mean, would SM players celebrate if GW knocked 12" of their lascannons and took away their autocannons, their plasma cannons, their assault cannons, their meltas, their multi-meltas, their heavy flamers (they can keep their normal flamers), their plasmaguns, their grav guns, their grav cannons, their missile launchers etc. and replaced them with an assault Lascannon (with 18" range) and poison 4+ bolters? Since we're being generous, squads can purchase Hurricane Bolters as Heavy Weapons, and their vehicles can choose between Lascannons and Heavy bolters.


One other aspect is that, for a race with so much poison, we seem to get some really awful poisons. I mean, Sternguard can get 2+ poison (along with several other types of ammunition) for their bolters, yet the DE (who have practically built their economy around poison and murder) can only get 4+ poison.