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Wave serpent. Balanced or unbalanced?
Balanced
Unbalanced (undercosted)
Unbalanced (overcosted)
"This is a really uncomfy fence"

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Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

morgoth wrote:
Either way, the fact remains that the only argument that stands is that the WS can be spammed using a regular CAD.

Face your problems, ask for unbound and stop whining about a unit that may not even be in the top 10 most broken 40K units.

Or start calling every other unit around that power level OP, and make as many threads about it as you do with the Wave Serpent, for consistency's sake.


Look at the poll numbers and realise your error

and then stop whining that you just want to use the most op in order to win.

I Killed a Wave Serpent last night with a Sister and a Melta gun - it was glorious - then the Dire Avengers from inside wiped her out and her unit................but she had done the Emperor's work that day

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/31 17:32:42


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




rigeld2 wrote:

a) Intervening units don't need 25% cover


It's better to know the rules before posting about them.

Please re-read the BRB about vehicles and cover, you'll find it interesting.
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





morgoth wrote:
Either way, the fact remains that the only argument that stands is that the WS can be spammed using a regular CAD.

Face your problems, ask for unbound and stop whining about a unit that may not even be in the top 10 most broken 40K units.

Or start calling every other unit around that power level OP, and make as many threads about it as you do with the Wave Serpent, for consistency's sake.

Being spamable is only a part of the problem. The thing has many, many strengths with no real weakness. (Unless those pesky teleporting tac squads flinging krak grenades ruin your day.) It's worth more than its points, thus it's OP. By what degree is it OP is what's debatable. I'd say, relatively, in the higher end.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Of the people so far that have made a decision and not sat on the fence 82.2% (that's over 4 in 5) have said the waveserpent is OP. Just thought I'd point that out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/31 17:34:05


 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






morgoth wrote:
Face your problems, ask for unbound and stop whining about a unit that may not even be in the top 10 most broken 40K units.


Im fairly sure the poll says you are wrong.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





morgoth wrote:
Either way, the fact remains that the only argument that stands is that the WS can be spammed using a regular CAD.

Face your problems, ask for unbound and stop whining about a unit that may not even be in the top 10 most broken 40K units.

Or start calling every other unit around that power level OP, and make as many threads about it as you do with the Wave Serpent, for consistency's sake.

Please, list your top 10 then.
And no, the rest of the arguments stand, especially considering your failed rebuttal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
morgoth wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

a) Intervening units don't need 25% cover


It's better to know the rules before posting about them.

Please re-read the BRB about vehicles and cover, you'll find it interesting.

Sorry - my mistake from playing primarily Nids. Got any response to, I dunno, any of the other points I made?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/31 17:38:26


My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

morgoth wrote:
Either way, the fact remains that the only argument that stands is that the WS can be spammed using a regular CAD.


That's not a fact, that's just your opinion.

morgoth wrote:

Face your problems, ask for unbound and stop whining about a unit that may not even be in the top 10 most broken 40K units.


So, the Wave Serpent isn't broken... it just requires opponents to use Unbound armies on order to beat it.

Yeah, that seems perfectly reasonable.


Also, could you please enlighten us with your list of the top 10 most broken units in 40k?

Also also, why don't you start some threads about the units you consider broken, and see if others share your view? Unless, of course, you're afraid of rebuttal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/31 17:42:05


 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





If Morgoth was posting in jest, I'd consider him a comic genius at this point.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





The height of a skimmer does matter some. In a tourny game, I put my highest-dakka skimmer behind the highest cover on the board half they gave us. Top of t1, the opponent moves something into the center, and pops the skimmer with no terrain cover (6th ed, so no jink). Not a huge drawback, but it does matter some.

I think Morgoth was trying to point out that being able to use the Serpent Shield and Jink at the top of 1 helps, but only in half of the games, and then only on the first turn.

The point about jink/don't jink with regards to its costs (reduced dakka) is mostly about jink not being a straight 4+/3+ save. If its always done, it is substantial loss of dakka. If its not always done, its not quite as effective as a 4+/3+. So always assuming a 4+/3+ while also assuming 3+ hits every round is a little disingenuous.

As for LR vs WS, I see your Haywire, Guass, and Melts, and I raise you:
-Plasma Anything
-Krak Missile Launchers
-Autocannons
-Icharus Lascannon (thanks to skyfire)
-Assault Cannons
-Rail Rifles
-Blast masters
-Tyranid s7/8 shooting
-Vector Strike
-Krak Grenades
-Tau Missiles
-Krak Grenades
-Pulse Lasers
-Scatter Lasers
-Shuriken Cannons
-Malta over half range
-Anything rear armor
-Anything melee
And anything else between a Scatter Laser and a Lascannon.

I don't know what you face, but I see s6-9 far more often than in-melta-range Malta weapons and such.

The Serpent is OP right now, but comparing its toughness to a landraider is quite a bit off.

Sure, tools designed to work through any armor are more deadly to tanks that pile on armor than those designed to avoid getting hit. But that is how it should be. Those tanks are there to shrug off the s9 and under weaponry. And I see those a lot more often.

As for tracked vs skimmer, I think they mostly pay points for it. Skimmer is just, generally, the better tech once perfected, if you can afford it. The IoM can do some skimmers, but not well. So you have an 80pt base Devilfish. Or an about-equal-cost tri-las Pred vs BL Falcon, where the Pred can sit farther away, do more damage, and take more head on, than the skimmer falcon, that wins in maneuverability.

If you removed/nerfed the Serpent's shooting, its shooting survivability would be about right for what they cost.

(Side note - someone suggested 24"/Gets Hot for firing the Serpent Shield. What do ya'll think of that?)

Edit - oops, a whole page went by while in typed this

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/31 17:54:34


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Or an about-equal-cost tri-las Pred vs BL Falcon, where the Pred can sit farther away, do more damage, and take more head on, than the skimmer falcon, that wins in maneuverability.

Nice thing your compering two models no one uses. Trilas are overcosted and I never seen anyone want to take a falcon.
Specialy as you can take a WS, not waste a heavy support slot, have better fire power then a pred. And it will be scoring.
The WS is more resilient then a Lemman Russ or a LR not just, because it has better rules or because it is a fast skimmer, but because there will be max 2 of the AV tanks in most lists and there are 5-6 serpents in an eldar list. Any good army will run 1-2 good anti tank units or at least try to run units that will do anti tank ok, this means those 1-2 Russes or LR, can be destroyed faster and leave the IG or marine player with a bigger points hole in their list them someone losing a WS. Aside for nids or necron how many armies can counter 5-6 WS and be good enough against all other popular type of builds?
   
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On moon miranda.

morgoth wrote:


Tracked tanks are generally played very statically and will benefit either from friendly troop / hull cover (5+) or ruin cover (4+).
Sometimes, but not at all always, and the same will go for Skimmer gun tanks quite often. Stuff like transports or things like Hellhounds which have to close range, often won't have that option however. That's all very dependent on terrain, deployment, firing lanes, etc. That's all *far* less reliable than just being able to choose to jink, usually only works from one direction (so if something Fast boost over, or something Deep Strikes into the side, won't matter), and usually that save will be less than what a Skimmer will usually get (5+ terrain is more common, while camo nets are of much less value, where they're even available, while holofields are very common upgrades).

In the same price range as a Wave Serpent, you get a Leman Russ that doesn't care about S7 and less and S5 and less in assault.
Most Russ tanks are rear AV10, only three are rear AV11. While they don't care about S7 from the front, they also have *very* little mobility, most variants lack the 60" striking range (especially anything on them that would ignore cover). In the same price range, we also have stuff like Hellhounds, Predators, Taurox Primes (depending on upgrades), Battlewagons (with *very* narrow frontal armor arcs), walkers like Dreads or armored sentinel squadrons, etc that are all much easier to engage.


In the same price range as a Wave Serpent + Dire Avengers, you get a Land Raider that doesn't care about S7 and less in shooting or assault, has 4 HP and can shoot at two different targets.
And now you're comparing two units to one, nobody takes naked Land Raiders, they're far too expensive to take just as gun tanks, once you account for that the Land Raiders plus cargo are usually ~500 points. Additionally against many, if not most, of the things that can easily destroy a Land Raider (e.g. meltaguns, railguns, demolisher cannons, lance weapons, etc), the Wave Serpent can exercise its Jink save and have a higher chance (way higher if equipped with the very common Holofield upgrade) of negating the HP loss or avoiding an Explosion than the Land Raider can and safely deliver its transported cargo to where it needs to be.


All in all, for equivalent cover and price points, tracked tanks tend to be just as resilient as Skimmers
If you're comparing Wave Serpents to Leman Russ tanks stuck hiding behind terrain the whole game in the backfield, or comparing them with large embarked squad to a naked Land Raider, sure. They're certainly lacking the extreme mobility at that point. Consider that two Chimeras cost about what a kitted Wave Serpent usually costs (with similar armor, role, and weapon strength), nobody would consider those two really equal in firepower or resiliency to a Wave Serpent.

Compare with skimmers having a harder time finding cover
Some might if you mounted them on the really tall skimmer base stem maybe? I've got a Hammerhead and Leman Russ tank right here next to me, and the Hammerhead is maybe a third of an inch taller on its skimmer base? Either could claim the cover save behind an Aegis line.

and a very costly Jink (66% of damage output for the next turn).
The alternative for the tracked tank often being no damage output for the rest of the game however

Even when jinking, damage output is often still significant, as I pointed out above, a jinking Scatterlaser Wave Serpent is landing as much firepower as a Chimera is when fully functional and stationary (or if you start including Necrons with Tesla it's even more amusing). Meanwhile those tracked tanks don't even have the option of Jinking, while the Skimmers can still do so even if immobilized.

Moreover, their resilience is not just based on cover saves, which means they don't fall apart when ignores cover weaponry is used.
The overwhelmingly vast majority of which aren't strong enough to hurt them, or only have a very small chance of doing so, the primary exception being getting Markerlighted, Wave Serpent shield cannons, or having IG infantry very close getting orders from an officer, two of those three being from Skimmer armies.


Of course, that doesn't prevent the Wave Serpent from being a top-tier unit, but it's important to not mistake the Jink ability for "durability" or "free cover save" because it's neither. It's a very expensive cover save, and adds absolutely no durability against assault or ignores cover.
Of course it doesn't do anything against assault, all tanks are absurdly easy to kill in assaults, but the Wave Serpent, along with other Fast Skimmers, can avoid that better than any tracked tank. Again, cover save ignoring weapons typically are either not strong enough to hurt something like a Wave Serpent, or only have a very small chance.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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Yeah, Makumba, AV spam is something I dislike in any flavor. Serpent Spam certainly does add something nasty to it. But Knight walls exist too. Ugh.

I think one for one, a Russ would be more survivable than a Serpent, but Serpent Spam is uglier than Russ spam.

I had a game in 6th vs IG/DA/Inq, where he sat two Russes in front of the 4+ field, and used Probes to deny any infiltrations. He complained about how broken the one av12 4+ vehicle was, while he had 2 av14 4+s sitting around. As for dakka, a pair Battle Cannons on AV14s with heavy flamers and artillery does a number on Footdar.

As for tri-las vs Falcons, I'd almost never take a tri-las over a 4xLC Dev squad (but then I plan UM defendants). I do, however, field Falcons far more than Serpents. They are on the light side of effectiveness, but they are a ton of fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, most ignores-cover shooting (tau rail/plasma/missile, Nid s7/8 shooting, CSM Blast masters, and Eldar 'Sheilds) that I see are all *really* scary to a Serpent. Most aren't scary to a Russ or LR though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/31 18:31:47


 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 Mr Morden wrote:


I Killed a Wave Serpent last night with a Sister and a Melta gun - it was glorious


Sisters are OP.

Spoiler:
and melta guns.



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Virginia

 gmaleron wrote:
Honestly the only thing about Wave Serpents that needs to be changed is the shield IMO. Either it does its shenanigans of turning a Penetrating hit into a Glance OR allows a shooting attack, not have the ability to do both.



I'm fine with it doing both, just limit the range, take away Ignores Cover, make it not effected by Laser Lock (Since it can't be destroyed on it's own), something. Anything, really. Just do anything to it to fix it. Also, Laser Lock. Change it, naoh.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
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Buffalo, NY

 krodarklorr wrote:
 gmaleron wrote:
Honestly the only thing about Wave Serpents that needs to be changed is the shield IMO. Either it does its shenanigans of turning a Penetrating hit into a Glance OR allows a shooting attack, not have the ability to do both.



I'm fine with it doing both, just limit the range, take away Ignores Cover, make it not effected by Laser Lock (Since it can't be destroyed on it's own), something. Anything, really. Just do anything to it to fix it. Also, Laser Lock. Change it, naoh.


Well, either it is a weapon, in which case it can be affected by Laser Lock and be destroyed; or it is not a weapon and cannot be destroyed nor benefit from Laser Lock.


For some reason, the non-Eldar players in my group have decided it is a weapon that cannot be destroyed.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 Happyjew wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
 gmaleron wrote:
Honestly the only thing about Wave Serpents that needs to be changed is the shield IMO. Either it does its shenanigans of turning a Penetrating hit into a Glance OR allows a shooting attack, not have the ability to do both.



I'm fine with it doing both, just limit the range, take away Ignores Cover, make it not effected by Laser Lock (Since it can't be destroyed on it's own), something. Anything, really. Just do anything to it to fix it. Also, Laser Lock. Change it, naoh.


Well, either it is a weapon, in which case it can be affected by Laser Lock and be destroyed; or it is not a weapon and cannot be destroyed nor benefit from Laser Lock.


For some reason, the non-Eldar players in my group have decided it is a weapon that cannot be destroyed.


I thought it specifically said it can't be destroyed apart from the vehicle?

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Honestly, the shield just seems like something a dedicated transport just shouldn't have in the first place.

I mean, even without it, it has solid armour (plus Jink), and can easily put out 7 TL S6 shots.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
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Virginia

 vipoid wrote:
Honestly, the shield just seems like something a dedicated transport just shouldn't have in the first place.

I mean, even without it, it has solid armour (plus Jink), and can easily put out 7 TL S6 shots.


This. Me and numerous other people have said just put the Serpent shield on the Falcon and call it a day.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
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Buffalo, NY

 krodarklorr wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
 gmaleron wrote:
Honestly the only thing about Wave Serpents that needs to be changed is the shield IMO. Either it does its shenanigans of turning a Penetrating hit into a Glance OR allows a shooting attack, not have the ability to do both.



I'm fine with it doing both, just limit the range, take away Ignores Cover, make it not effected by Laser Lock (Since it can't be destroyed on it's own), something. Anything, really. Just do anything to it to fix it. Also, Laser Lock. Change it, naoh.


Well, either it is a weapon, in which case it can be affected by Laser Lock and be destroyed; or it is not a weapon and cannot be destroyed nor benefit from Laser Lock.


For some reason, the non-Eldar players in my group have decided it is a weapon that cannot be destroyed.


I thought it specifically said it can't be destroyed apart from the vehicle?


Nope. It is a piece of wargear that can function as a weapon. Which is more or less called out in the Weapon Destroyed rule "including vehicle upgrades that function as weapons". The real problem is what happens when destroyed? Does it lose both offensive and defensive capabilities, or does it just lose the ability to shoot?

I still stand by my thoughts on how the "shooting" should work - If "fired" the Serpent cannot shoot any other weapons. All units within 6" take a Pinning test.

This prevents the Laser Lock shenanigans, and makes it fit more with the fluff - a wave of energy that blasts the enemy from their feet.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 Happyjew wrote:

Nope. It is a piece of wargear that can function as a weapon. Which is more or less called out in the Weapon Destroyed rule "including vehicle upgrades that function as weapons". The real problem is what happens when destroyed? Does it lose both offensive and defensive capabilities, or does it just lose the ability to shoot?

I still stand by my thoughts on how the "shooting" should work - If "fired" the Serpent cannot shoot any other weapons. All units within 6" take a Pinning test.

This prevents the Laser Lock shenanigans, and makes it fit more with the fluff - a wave of energy that blasts the enemy from their feet.


I'm okay with that. Definitely sounds good to me.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
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You're still paying 150-ish points per Serpent.

Clearly broken with the shield as-is.

But without the shield entirely?

Serpent is harder to kill than a Rhino, but not four times harder to kill. AV12s don't fold like paper, but I usually don't have trouble killing a couple of them. The cost would have to come down if it lost the shield entirely.

Explodes a CSM Rhino - CSM - 1/2 wounded, 1/3 of those fail armor save = 1/6 die, one LD test (pinning)

Explodes a Serpent - DAs - 2/3 wounded, 1/2 of those fail saves = 1/3 die, two LD tests (pinning and shock). Each man cost as much as a CSM.

Explodes a Serpent - Guardians - 2/3 wounded, 2/3of those fail saves = over half die, two LD tests

Without some pen protection, the only troops that'd be feasible for Eldar are backfield campers, Jetbikes, and Wraiths. Take out DTs entirely, and you're down to backfield camping and Jetbikes. For an army with mostly range 12-18 weapons, that is painful.
   
Made in us
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On moon miranda.

Given how much more likely killing a vehicle through HP's is than exploding it (especially medium vehicles), even on penetrations, it shouldn't be a huge concern, and it's not like other armies that don't sport 3+ armor have pen protection like DE, IG and Tau (and while some of their infantry are cheaper, even specialist units like Scions and Trueborn have to deal with it).

That said, a "shield" of some sort is part of its longstanding fluff. Previously this treated anything higher than S8 as S8. With the decreased importance of penetrations (particularly in 7th, especially relative to 5th edition), the value of the shield as a defensive mechanism is much less than what it used to be (and why currently it's used so often purely offensively). If they dumped the cannon part and turned the shield into an "always on" 5+ invul save, that would remove 33% of all hits against it, while allowing it to operating without having to rely on Jink as much, allowing it a bit more freedom of operation, without making it quite as absurd as it is now and without making the Jink mechanic superfluous if it feels heavily endangered, in addition to keeping some more survivability versus ignores-cover weapons. Thus, for 130pts, you could sport a TL Scatterlaser, a shuricannon, (so up to seven S6 TL'd shots, still not terrible firepower by any means) with a 5+ invul and a Jink option to gain a 4+ cover (or 145pts for a 3+ cover).

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Bharring wrote:
You're still paying 150-ish points per Serpent.


Well, surely it depends what upgrades you buy?

I mean, you can get a reasonable build for 130.

Bharring wrote:

Serpent is harder to kill than a Rhino, but not four times harder to kill. AV12s don't fold like paper, but I usually don't have trouble killing a couple of them. The cost would have to come down if it lost the shield entirely.


But then, Rhinos can't put out 7 TL S6 Shots at long range.

It seems like a Chimera would be a better comparison (with 2 costing the same as a single WS).

2 Chimeras average 3 S6 hits and 3 S5 hits on their target (if they remain stationary to fire)
If the Chimeras move 6", then they average 3 S6 hits, and 1 S5 hit.
If they move 12", then they average 1 S6 hit and 1 S5 hit.
The WS can move 12", and averages ~6 S6 hits.
If it jinks, it averages ~2 S6 hits.

The Chimeras have FA12 SA10 RA10, and 6 hull points between them.
The WS has FA12 SA12 RA10 with 3 HPs, but has the option to jink.

The Chimeras do have twice the capacity between them.

I don't know, it doesn't seem to come off too unreasonably. It has fewer HPs, though more side armour. And, it can move 12" and still put out more firepower than 2 stationary Chimeras. Or, it can jink (which will, on average, double its life-expectancy), but put out reduced firepower as a result (though, still more than the 2 Chimeras if they move 12").

At the very least, I really don't think it would require a major point drop. Though, ideally, it's the sort of thing you'd use plat testing to fine-tune.

Bharring wrote:

Explodes a CSM Rhino - CSM - 1/2 wounded, 1/3 of those fail armor save = 1/6 die, one LD test (pinning)

Explodes a Serpent - DAs - 2/3 wounded, 1/2 of those fail saves = 1/3 die, two LD tests (pinning and shock). Each man cost as much as a CSM.

Explodes a Serpent - Guardians - 2/3 wounded, 2/3of those fail saves = over half die, two LD tests

Without some pen protection, the only troops that'd be feasible for Eldar are backfield campers, Jetbikes, and Wraiths. Take out DTs entirely, and you're down to backfield camping and Jetbikes. For an army with mostly range 12-18 weapons, that is painful.


All I can say to this is 'how do you think DE feel?' I mean, their troops also have 5+ saves - but their transports are AV10 open topped. Serpents are already considerably more durable by virtue of being AV12 and closed-top. I don't see why they need even more protection on top of that.

Hell, the aforementioned Chimera is generally used to transport Guardsmen - who are no more durable than Guardians. Should Chimeras get shields too?


 blood reaper wrote:
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 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


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"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


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 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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Yeah, the pen reduction isn't nearly as necessary as it was in 6th.

That said, IG and Tau are both long-range armies. DE are a mix of long range and melee. It's a lot easier to not get blown up when you don't need the transport to get close.

Eldar are odd in that their vehicles usually have decent ranges, but most of their infantry options have critically-short range. 12" and 18" isn't uncommon. They have speed and a flying-brick of a DT to compensate, but currently that DT is far too much of a gunboat to be fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, don't Chimeras have Firepoints?

And DE have open topped, and typically 24" range. DE pay a lot when their boats blow up, but their boats cost less than half a Serpent, and DE is generally a glass-cannon army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(And how is the Serpent's 24" on it's cannon long-range?)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/31 23:21:10


 
   
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Canada

Bharring wrote:
You're still paying 150-ish points per Serpent.

Clearly broken with the shield as-is.

But without the shield entirely?

Serpent is harder to kill than a Rhino, but not four times harder to kill. AV12s don't fold like paper, but I usually don't have trouble killing a couple of them. The cost would have to come down if it lost the shield entirely.

Explodes a CSM Rhino - CSM - 1/2 wounded, 1/3 of those fail armor save = 1/6 die, one LD test (pinning)

Explodes a Serpent - DAs - 2/3 wounded, 1/2 of those fail saves = 1/3 die, two LD tests (pinning and shock). Each man cost as much as a CSM.

Explodes a Serpent - Guardians - 2/3 wounded, 2/3of those fail saves = over half die, two LD tests

Without some pen protection, the only troops that'd be feasible for Eldar are backfield campers, Jetbikes, and Wraiths. Take out DTs entirely, and you're down to backfield camping and Jetbikes. For an army with mostly range 12-18 weapons, that is painful.

I think most people would be fine with a points drop if the Serpent lost the shield or if its effect was sufficiently nerfed.

   
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Eastern Washington

Imagine a scenario if you please.

Your a new 40k player, and your a hack. You want to win above all other concerns. So you decide to research the internet for a newb autowin button. What does the internet say? Serpent spam! So you buy five SWs with min DAs.

You proceed to the lfgs and game until you drop. And lose relentlessly. How do you think that skilless hack of a newb would respond?

My guess would be, in this hypothetical situation, that the newb in question would argue ceaselessly that WSs were under powered. Just a thought mind you, a hypothetical. A bit of " mathhammer" if you will.

4,000 Word Bearers 1,500 
   
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Gosport, UK

 Red Marine wrote:
Imagine a scenario if you please.

Your a new 40k player, and your a hack. You want to win above all other concerns. So you decide to research the internet for a newb autowin button. What does the internet say? Serpent spam! So you buy five SWs with min DAs.

You proceed to the lfgs and game until you drop. And lose relentlessly. How do you think that skilless hack of a newb would respond?

My guess would be, in this hypothetical situation, that the newb in question would argue ceaselessly that WSs were under powered. Just a thought mind you, a hypothetical. A bit of " mathhammer" if you will.


...it all makes sense now.
   
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It'd probably take losing the shield outright to justify any price drop.
   
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Devon, UK

 Red Marine wrote:
Imagine a scenario if you please.

Your a new 40k player, and your a hack. You want to win above all other concerns. So you decide to research the internet for a newb autowin button. What does the internet say? Serpent spam! So you buy five SWs with min DAs.

You proceed to the lfgs and game until you drop. And lose relentlessly. How do you think that skilless hack of a newb would respond?

My guess would be, in this hypothetical situation, that the newb in question would argue ceaselessly that WSs were under powered. Just a thought mind you, a hypothetical. A bit of " mathhammer" if you will.


If we're speculating about the same thing that I think we're speculating about, I'm afraid I Ninjad you by about three weeks and at least as many threads!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/01 02:27:28


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The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

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Balanced 8% [ 16 ]
Unbalanced (undercosted) 76% [ 151 ]
Unbalanced (overcosted) 8% [ 16 ]
"This is a really uncomfy fence" 8% [ 16 ]
Total Votes : 199


So what I'm seeing is either Morgorth voting 32 times, or 31 people who looooove cheese Eldar.. and Morgorth.


DR:80-S++G+M-B---I+Pw40k#10++D+A++++/cWD-R+++T(T)DM+
(Grey Knights 4500+) (Eldar 4000+ Pts) (Tyranids 3000 Pts) (Tau 3000 Pts) (Imperial Guard 3500 Pts) (Doom Eagles 3000 Pts) (Orks 3000+ Pts) (Necrons 2500 Pts) (Daemons 2000) (Sisters of Battle 2000) (2 Imperial Knights) 
   
 
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