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Except for those weirdos like me who generally only buy games with female protagonists...

I remember we had a Street Fighter II (or something) arcade machine in our dorm rec room. My roommate was always short of change to play, and I'd always give him some quarters on the condition that he played only female characters.

I wasn't watching or anything -- let alone playing against him, I am so terrible at any game requiring coordination it is hilarious/a medical condition-- I just wanted to know that he was kicking ass with a female character.

Chun Li definitely kicks ass in the hands of someone who can pull off her moves. Especially in SSFII Turbo edition... she was Warp Factor 5 fast.

The RH link to the TGG is not the army that most want for their SoB. Those of us on the RH kick are talking about their planned Order of Eternal Mercy, which currently exists only in concept art, found here:

http://www.ragingheroes.com/pages/the-sisters-of-eternal-mercy-picture-gallery

Also keep in mind that just because GW said (years ago) that they had a problem stopping them doesn't mean that they do now (or even did at the time). A lot of stuff gets designed and then sat on until 'the right moment'. With the move to digital sculpting, there's less chance of a green being spotted by (less and less) rumour sources.

The dark eldar bomber had to be shelved because it was too fiddly.... and here it is. We are not doing space hulk. Okay, we did space hulk but we'll never do it again.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'd have a crush on me too. Heck. I already kinda do.

Yes, I noticed that. I can very easily believe you on that one.

 Lynata wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:40k is an expensive hobby. Why wouldn't people with good income and fair amounts of leisure time be on Dakka?

Oh, I didn't mean disposable income, but 40k is also a very geeky hobby, so I just don't expect us to attract the sort of people he tries to make himself sound like - and even if we do, I'd expect them to behave .. differently.
Now, of course neither of us knows what the other actually does, so I could be totally wrong here, but imho it's still a pretty silly thing to claim some sort of authority because of something they're inherently unable to prove, and expect everyone to believe it just like that, as if nobody would lie on the internet. It just ... adds nothing to a debate. I could just as well claim that actually I'm Gav Thorpe.

OK, I guess. Tho I think having expectations kinda sets things up badly - it's the Interwebs, after all.

 Lynata wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Also, referencing Kubler-Ross suggests that Sisters will have been Squatted, versus still being on life support... Do we want GW to pull the plug?

The answer to this will probably depend heavily on one's individual situation, so I'm not sure there can be a "we" as our situations will be different. For me, personally, I do not see much of a difference between this sort of life support and actually being squatted - right now, it just feels as if the entire army floats in a sort of limbo, neither dead nor alive, and the "life support" merely prolongs a suffering and makes it harder to let go of something that will never again be as good as it used to be.

On the other hand, I'm sure there are still players who genuinely enjoy actively playing this army, in spite of the hardships, simply because they're an established player in their local club/community, and I wouldn't want to see them lose the sort of official backing that their army still has. Although GW would probably tell SoB players they could just use Codex Space Marines to field them, similarly to how they told Squat players to field them as IG.

It's a tricky situation where nobody is really happy, and whatever you do will make it worse for one party. And the only one who could improve their situation doesn't seem to have any interest in doing so.

To expand on the "life support" metaphor, as an army, the SoB are less the comatose patient on a hospital bed waiting for someone to "pull the plug", but more like a poor dog suffering from a painful illness, where it'd be the humane thing to just put them down, but their owner - in this case referring more to the players rather than GW - loves them so much that they cannot bring themselves to do it.

IMO, there is a very big difference between being on life support (Sisters) and being dead (Squats, Dogs of War). Having an official Army Book / Codex that gets occasional rules tweaks and updates is A Very Good Thing (tm).

Sisters would play as StormTroopers, not Space Marines. They're just girls in armor. Not superhumans. And their armor really doesn't look that heavy. T3 Sv4+ is a good fit.

I agree that Sisters are hard to expand out into a full army, what with the need for Flyers and Titans in 7E, along with alternate Troops (Frateris) and so forth.

IMO, it's better to still have the Sisters around as an active part of the game universe. I would be sad if Sisters got Squatted.

I would not hold out hope for a resurgence in the Sister's product line from GW. If it happens, well, that's cool, but I don't see it happening...

With things being what they are right now, and the trends of the game over the last several years being what they are, we can basically see the two choices that are open to GW, in the face of shrinking market share, falling revenues and plummeting sales...

One, they continue exactly as they have been, with the release schedule that they have been following, and we might see the occasional Codex update for the Sisters, with a new release of a single model-type only when the mold for the currently-metal-only line breaks.

This will continue until GW files for bankruptcy and the IP is sold to someone else.

Or, GW decides to gamble on the future and does a Dark Eldar/Necron resurgence/re-release for them. This will cost an initial outlay of money (all the development and production costs), and present a shot in the arm in terms of sales and income from the fanbase (let us not fool ourselves, a new Sisters release is not going to suddenly draw thousands and thousands of new players to the game).... and the Sisters will then be probably one of the last armies that ever sees a major overhaul from GW before bankruptcy forces GW to sell the IP.

The third option is that GW realizes that the business practices of the last decade-plus have not been working and they need to seriously right the ship, and thus take actual drastic measures, like market research, to figure out what to do... but I have no faith in that ever actually happening.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I agree that Sisters are hard to expand out into a full army, what with the need for Flyers and Titans in 7E, along with alternate Troops (Frateris) and so forth....

Done it. Give me a few days and I'll have 17-ish new units all in one place, but for now:

Fliers
Titan (full size)
Knight Titan
Frateris

And there are tanks and super-heavy tanks and ridiculously heavy tanks and some artillery and infantry and HQs.

I'm eager for comment on all of these. And of course mine is not the only homebrew 'dex out there. Where I do seem to be unusual is that I take the digidex as a good thing and simply add to it rather than try to replace it.

Of course none of this addresses whether GW makes actual new models or not. But fleshing out the Sisters into a full army, one as diverse as the Marines or the Imperial Guard, is definitely doable.

Creating the units and rules is relatively trivial. Heck, I can do that pretty easily.

Creating the models is harder, but clearly doable by GW's sculptors.

Getting the models produced and into players' hands is the real sticking point. That's an uphill marketing challenge.

To my mind, GW was headed down the right track with Witch Hunters, as a semi-elite S3 T3 army. Good variety of stuff, lots of options, multiple builds. Combine Sisters, Arbites, PDF, Gangers, and Frateris together with Inquisition Stormtroopers / Warriors for an Imperial Irregulars Codex. Allow units of 20 Servitors / Arco-Flagellants. And so on. Put enough choices into that book, and give players enough options, and it starts to become compelling. Oh, well...

I can see it now =D! 3 Kits, One makes your standard sisters with specail/heavy weapons and command squad ala the Tempestus Scions. One kit makes ,the Seraphim and a new unit, And the final kit makes Repntas or DeathCult Assasins, oh and a new plastic, Penitent Engine =D


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then you roll that into an inquisition release, giving us an acroflai servitor dual kit, Highly customizable inquistor kit($50 for a super nice sculpt with tons of options to make him look super unique make it compatable with the Cannones model so you can make a female inquisitor) Then you got all your weirdvyne psykers/mystics ina plastic box and tie it all together with an Inquisition Hardback codex and bam! SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEH!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Creating the units and rules is relatively trivial. Heck, I can do that pretty easily.

Creating the models is harder, but clearly doable by GW's sculptors.

Getting the models produced and into players' hands is the real sticking point. That's an uphill marketing challenge.

To my mind, GW was headed down the right track with Witch Hunters, as a semi-elite S3 T3 army. Good variety of stuff, lots of options, multiple builds. Combine Sisters, Arbites, PDF, Gangers, and Frateris together with Inquisition Stormtroopers / Warriors for an Imperial Irregulars Codex. Allow units of 20 Servitors / Arco-Flagellants. And so on. Put enough choices into that book, and give players enough options, and it starts to become compelling. Oh, well...

Oh man that would be super sweet It would be like combing everything I love into one codex....well expect Orks. Hmmm Codex Supplement Blood Axe Mercenaries

Too bad It will never happen.

I know! GW was *so* close, and then they stepped away from the edge.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
To my mind, GW was headed down the right track with Witch Hunters, as a semi-elite S3 T3 army. Good variety of stuff, lots of options, multiple builds. Combine Sisters, Arbites, PDF, Gangers, and Frateris together with Inquisition Stormtroopers / Warriors for an Imperial Irregulars Codex. Allow units of 20 Servitors / Arco-Flagellants. And so on. Put enough choices into that book, and give players enough options, and it starts to become compelling. Oh, well...

I think Sisters deserve to be a full army on their own, though. (And it's doable without too many new models: my homebrews rely mainly on things like converted Vendettas, Predators, and Baneblades; you'd mostly need new bitz). I much prefer the current system where they have their own 'dex but liberal allies rules make it easy to blend in Inquisition. Arbites would be good as at least a dataslate, too -- though Matt Forish has done a great full-scale fandex for them.

You can even get your Ork mercs in, sort of, as Desperate Allies....

 Mr. Burning wrote:
So SOB players want a combi melta/flamer?

confused?

Yes.

Also this...

"Flamers point both ways."
"No sh*t, Sherlock."

But as long as you're willing to be completely obvious once you start shooting, I see nothing wrong with Sororitas infiltrators.

 SisterSydney wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
To my mind, GW was headed down the right track with Witch Hunters, as a semi-elite S3 T3 army. Good variety of stuff, lots of options, multiple builds. Combine Sisters, Arbites, PDF, Gangers, and Frateris together with Inquisition Stormtroopers / Warriors for an Imperial Irregulars Codex. Allow units of 20 Servitors / Arco-Flagellants. And so on. Put enough choices into that book, and give players enough options, and it starts to become compelling. Oh, well...

I think Sisters deserve to be a full army on their own, though. (And it's doable without too many new models: my homebrews rely mainly on things like converted Vendettas, Predators, and Baneblades; you'd mostly need new bitz). I much prefer the current system where they have their own 'dex but liberal allies rules make it easy to blend in Inquisition. Arbites would be good as at least a dataslate, too -- though Matt Forish has done a great full-scale fandex for them.

You can even get your Ork mercs in, sort of, as Desperate Allies....

The problem is that Sisters, as a stand-alone army, has been demonstrated non-viable in the marketplace due to steeply limited appeal. That is NOT GW's fault. Same with Arbites. And PDF. And Gangers. And Inquisition Stormies. But they have the commonality of all being present in numbers on any Imperial world, representing the armed populace that has to hold out together until larger, professional forces arrive. Unifying all of the 2E/3E-era metals under a single banner allows players to dig out their goodies and play.

Rather than de-emphasizing Sisters as part of a Imperial Irregulars Codex containing *several* viable builds (all-Sisters, all-Arbites, all-PDF, all-Gangers, all-Stormies, etc.), wherein Sisters represent "the best of the rest", WH still pushed Sisters as the only really semi-viable build.

Anyhow, I get that you're a Sisters player, and how GW's pandering to Sisters players, only, meets your needs. The problem is that catering only to that tiny sliver of players means the niche will never expand, and it won't leverage the other niches (Arbites, Necromunda Gangers, etc.) to create something larger than the individual pieces. In that context, the current situation is about as good as it will ever be.

I confess to being a Sisters fanatic with no business sense. Savvier folks than me have argued back and forth over whether new Sisters models make sense for GW as a business proposition; all I can say is that pop culture is way, way more receptive to "kickass girls with guns" than it was the last time GW tried making these models.

As for Arbites, I'd love to see them get their own minidex, and hive gangers, etc could come out as dataslates -- the move to digital releases has given GW a lot more options for how to put out new rules (although obviously the models are the big money issue).

It's OK. It's not like GW reads this and takes business direction from the scions and luminaries on Dakka, such as ourselves.

BTW, looking waay back, I seem to recall Charlies Angels on TV, and Foxy Brown in the theatres. "kickass girls with guns", indeed.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
To my mind, GW was headed down the right track with Witch Hunters, as a semi-elite S3 T3 army. Good variety of stuff, lots of options, multiple builds. Combine Sisters, Arbites, PDF, Gangers, and Frateris together with Inquisition Stormtroopers / Warriors for an Imperial Irregulars Codex. Allow units of 20 Servitors / Arco-Flagellants. And so on. Put enough choices into that book, and give players enough options, and it starts to become compelling. Oh, well...

I think Sisters deserve to be a full army on their own, though. (And it's doable without too many new models: my homebrews rely mainly on things like converted Vendettas, Predators, and Baneblades; you'd mostly need new bitz). I much prefer the current system where they have their own 'dex but liberal allies rules make it easy to blend in Inquisition. Arbites would be good as at least a dataslate, too -- though Matt Forish has done a great full-scale fandex for them.

You can even get your Ork mercs in, sort of, as Desperate Allies....

The problem is that Sisters, as a stand-alone army, has been demonstrated non-viable in the marketplace due to steeply limited appeal. That is NOT GW's fault. Same with Arbites. And PDF. And Gangers. And Inquisition Stormies. But they have the commonality of all being present in numbers on any Imperial world, representing the armed populace that has to hold out together until larger, professional forces arrive. Unifying all of the 2E/3E-era metals under a single banner allows players to dig out their goodies and play.

Rather than de-emphasizing Sisters as part of a Imperial Irregulars Codex containing *several* viable builds (all-Sisters, all-Arbites, all-PDF, all-Gangers, all-Stormies, etc.), wherein Sisters represent "the best of the rest", WH still pushed Sisters as the only really semi-viable build.

Anyhow, I get that you're a Sisters player, and how GW's pandering to Sisters players, only, meets your needs. The problem is that catering only to that tiny sliver of players means the niche will never expand, and it won't leverage the other niches (Arbites, Necromunda Gangers, etc.) to create something larger than the individual pieces. In that context, the current situation is about as good as it will ever be.

'

They have "steeply limited appeal" because the models have "steeply limited availability" and their Codex does not exist in any physical format. To buy Sisters, you have to know the Sisters exist, and then be willing to pay two to four times the money for an equivalent-sized army of just about any other faction.

Oh, please. Are Sisters not right there on the GW website? :eyeroll:

Yes, they are. Which means Sweet FA when you go to your local GW store or FLGS or other point-of-purchase where you do your normal wargame shopping.

There's this thing called "the Web". Maybe you've heard of it? It makes shopping at a store quaint and old-fashioned.

I personally haven't bought anything of significance at retail from a game store in years. I have bought things at various clearance, BF, and GOOB sales. Love those GOOB sales!

The only reason I've ever bought at a GW store was for for their "FREE" shipping site-to-store for bitz and special orders.

And gaming at a store? Please. When they have food and beverages on site, serving beer, then I'll reconsider.

::headdesk::

Yes, and their web-only presence again contributes to the "steeply limited availability" that I mentioned previously. So if you're looking to get into the game of 40K, you have to know that it's owned by Games Workshop, that they have a website, and that their Nuns-With-Guns army is called the Adepta Sororitas on their website. There's not even a current book you can browse at a store to get a glimpse of the Army.

I can walk into any store that carries GW products and find, without a problem, stuff for Space Marines, stuff for Chaos Space Marines, stuff for Tau and stuff for Eldar. Necrons is sometimes hit-or-miss. IG is sometimes (surprisingly) hit-or-miss. Dark Eldar are also sometimes hit-or-miss, but usually (in the area I live), anything I can't find at one store is readily available at another.

SoB? Never there at all. Not even a blister of 3 girls in metal.

I never go into a brick-and-mortar store myself -- but how often is a Sisters model the big featured item on the GW site? Probably never because there are never any new ones.

Yeah, the low-risk, low-reward business model is to just keep milking the models and customers they have, but there's so much potential to do more.

OK, whatever dude. Clearly this store-centric thing is important to you. Fine, you win.

 Psienesis wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
To my mind, GW was headed down the right track with Witch Hunters, as a semi-elite S3 T3 army. Good variety of stuff, lots of options, multiple builds. Combine Sisters, Arbites, PDF, Gangers, and Frateris together with Inquisition Stormtroopers / Warriors for an Imperial Irregulars Codex. Allow units of 20 Servitors / Arco-Flagellants. And so on. Put enough choices into that book, and give players enough options, and it starts to become compelling. Oh, well...

I think Sisters deserve to be a full army on their own, though. (And it's doable without too many new models: my homebrews rely mainly on things like converted Vendettas, Predators, and Baneblades; you'd mostly need new bitz). I much prefer the current system where they have their own 'dex but liberal allies rules make it easy to blend in Inquisition. Arbites would be good as at least a dataslate, too -- though Matt Forish has done a great full-scale fandex for them.

You can even get your Ork mercs in, sort of, as Desperate Allies....

The problem is that Sisters, as a stand-alone army, has been demonstrated non-viable in the marketplace due to steeply limited appeal. That is NOT GW's fault. Same with Arbites. And PDF. And Gangers. And Inquisition Stormies. But they have the commonality of all being present in numbers on any Imperial world, representing the armed populace that has to hold out together until larger, professional forces arrive. Unifying all of the 2E/3E-era metals under a single banner allows players to dig out their goodies and play.

Rather than de-emphasizing Sisters as part of a Imperial Irregulars Codex containing *several* viable builds (all-Sisters, all-Arbites, all-PDF, all-Gangers, all-Stormies, etc.), wherein Sisters represent "the best of the rest", WH still pushed Sisters as the only really semi-viable build.

Anyhow, I get that you're a Sisters player, and how GW's pandering to Sisters players, only, meets your needs. The problem is that catering only to that tiny sliver of players means the niche will never expand, and it won't leverage the other niches (Arbites, Necromunda Gangers, etc.) to create something larger than the individual pieces. In that context, the current situation is about as good as it will ever be.

'

They have "steeply limited appeal" because the models have "steeply limited availability" and their Codex does not exist in any physical format. To buy Sisters, you have to know the Sisters exist, and then be willing to pay two to four times the money for an equivalent-sized army of just about any other faction.

SoB are essentaly in a Catch 22 situation. As another said GW is still holding onto the ip and if they want SoB to sell more they have to give them attention (ie plastic SoB box kits), but GW doesn't want to take the risk for development and there for SoB are stuck where they are.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, whatever dude. Clearly this store-centric thing is important to you. Fine, you win.

It's not just the store thing. Even on the website, a single Battle Sister Squad of 10 models is $80 US, while a 10-man Tac Squad is $40... and with Marines, you get roughly a bajillion times the options for troops, vehicles and other Stuff than you get with the Sisters. It's simply not a well-marketed, well-supported product line. All of these things are entirely GW's fault, not the playerbase's.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
T3 Sv4+ is a good fit.

No it's not, it's fething power armor, give it the fuckig 3+ save.

 Melissia wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
T3 Sv4+ is a good fit.

No it's not, it's fething power armor, give it the fuckig 3+ save.

No, not really. Holding on to the straw of Sisters deserving a 3+ save is about as stupid as trying to hold on to Terminators having a 3+ save on 2d6. It's an archaic relic that makes no sense in game. And it's not like GW can't fix things - we saw that with the change to the Necrons WBB. Along with the additions and revisions to "Faith" (OMG, what a disaster).

Let's get real, Sisters wear MMORPG "Armor". They could be running around completely fething naked and have whatever fething armor rating GW wants, exactly how a stained wife-beater gives a Catachan the same 5+ save as a Cadian with an actual chest protector.

However, if one pretends that a 3+ really is appropriate for superhuman monsters wearing inch-thick ceramite armor, then the in-universe realities of helmetless human girls having the same level of armor protection from a layer of patent leather is pure fething nonsense. Compare Sisters with Arbites, Imperial Stormtroopers, Kasrkin & new Stormtroopers - those guys all wear heavier armor than the Sisters, but only get a 4+? Again, pure fething nonsense.

Rationalize the Sisters from a clean sheet with Terminators at 2+, Marines at 3+, Cadians at 5+, and Sisters splitting the difference at 4+, like Arbites and Stormtroopers. That's where Sisters should be. And then Sisters can get a points break, so people can field even more of them, which is what GW really wants.

Let's get real, Sisters wear MMORPG "Armor". They could be running around completely fething naked and have whatever fething armor rating GW wants, exactly how a stained wife-beater gives a Catachan the same 5+ save as a Cadian with an actual chest protector.

However, if one pretends that a 3+ really is appropriate for superhuman monsters wearing inch-thick ceramite armor, then the in-universe realities of helmetless human girls having the same level of armor protection from a layer of patent leather is pure fething nonsense. Compare Sisters with Arbites, Imperial Stormtroopers, Kasrkin & new Stormtroopers - those guys all wear heavier armor than the Sisters, but only get a 4+? Again, pure fething nonsense.

You... do know that power armor is heavier armor than carapace, right? Sisters wear Power Armor, Arbites and Stormtroopers wear Carapace.

Space Marine PA is "inches thick"... but hollow. The Armor plates contain all kinds of sub-systems and bits that provide all the extra functions that their armor has that Sororitas armor does not... and not a single one of these sub-systems has anything to do with raw protective qualities.

It is noted that the Sororitats Power Armor provides identical protection as that worn by the Astartes, it just lacks a lot of the extra systems, as such are not generally needed by the Sisters.

The corset is just the detailing of the armor, it's not actually a leather corset (alternately, it's a leather corset placed over the actual ceramite breastplate, I've seen it modeled that way, too.)