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You also shouldn't be relying on the Barges then. What about the other threats in your list? I'm fine with someone focusing on the AB. Means they're not shooting my troops, who are also shooting their stuff.

partninja wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:

partninja wrote:
I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.

/Sarcasm

Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.

I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.

The elites slot is looking a lot better now with things I am going to proxy and play test now.

I'll still probably play my list as a large Phalanx with hordes of warriors and Immortals.

Wraiths are 3++ and +1T

Phase Shifters are 4++ now. Previously this is what Wraiths had. Unless they get a new piece of wargear that gives them 3++ and I missed it?

Wraiths have Wraith Form, which gives them the 3++. They don't have Phase Shifters anymore.

Makumba wrote:

Still, the first thing to do was to fix the glitch in the Tesla mechanic, and somehow the past years of tesla snap firing gave game developers the idea that even without it Tesla would still be too powerful.
Maybe they were wrong. We'll see.

What do you mean maybe. On immortals it is way better to not take tesla . AB went from good unit to meh.

AB went from most undercosted in all of 40K to I don't even know what it is right now.

Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:


My grief, good sir, is not that Necrons are bad. If anything, they got better in a lot of areas, and their playstyle shifted. This is fine, and to be expected with a new codex. I don't give two gaks about competitive play in a game that is so widely unbalanced, even though Necrons weren't the best army out there. My grief is mostly with the fact that they managed to take away even more flavor from an already flavorless army IMO. Hence my disinterest with the book.

So basically you object to the changes for thematic and fluff reasons?

You really should have clarified this in the first post and listed what you did & didn't like. Since it was vague, naturally people just jumped in to point out all of the positive changes to RP and formations and what not.

I've been playing Necrons since the black codex - what 4th ed or 5th Ed. I loved the last codex and - I don't think this one is that much different from it.

Crypteks are still in the army - although I will grant you they lost some of their diversity. It felt like they didn't want to make a multipart plastic kit for them so they just made them more generic. I'll miss that aspect.

All other changes have either been "no change" or "positive" IMO. Honestly what else did they lose? Nothing really. All the units are still there... most of the same powers...
Other than Crypteks I can't think of one change that resulted in loss of flavor... certainly not enough to quit the entire game over. Can you list the ones you dislike?

Certainly. And there are things I dislike that aren't necessarily fluff things. There were things I was hoping to change that didn't, or didn't how I wanted them to.

- Ctans got more flavorful, yet are useless since their powers are random, still cost the same as a Land Raider, and didn't gain any movement buffs or survivability. So, still on the shelf.
- Overlords will most likely run away from anything decent in CC, and don't provide any real benefit to their army besides a Res orb for their unit, and Phaeron is gone. Why would you take Phaeron away....
- Crypteks, as we've discussed.
- Imotekh lost a bit of flavor, but got cheaper. That being said, I don't think he's worth his points as a LoW.
- Obyron sucks now. He's just a warscythe with WS6 pretty much.
- Living metal is meh.
- Lychguard didn't really get any different, though they are better.
- Particle Weapons didn't receive anything. There's still little reason to use them.
- Tesla got nerfed to the point where it is practically useless now on most platforms besides the Night Scythe.
- The Relics, while cool, are mostly One Use Only things. That's disappointing.
- The Wargear selection has gone DOWN from their previous book. And I thought they were bland before.
- Destroyer Lords are still the same, so boring.
- I would have been happier if they just removed MSS from the book. They will never see play.
- GW seems to still think Fear is worth anything. I don't understand why.
- Reanimation, while better, doesn't feel like Necrons anymore.
- 5th Ed. Was "Take a Warscythe on your Overlord". Now, 7th ed is "Take a Warscythe on your Overlord".

As I said, not everything is a direct dislike of fluff, a lot of it is still mechanics, but it's disappointing nonetheless. The army seems to have lost it's appeal, and to anyone going to troll, this is coming from someone who never spammed Night Scythes or A Barges. I'm just sad I'll never get to use Barges again. Or the monolith, for that matter.

partninja wrote:
I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.

/Sarcasm

Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.

I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.

4++ and +1T is way better. You don't get any more instant death from anything S8-9, so basically almost nothing in the game can deny your two wounds anymore, that IS badass.

It also makes you more resilient against S4 and even S5 and S6 spam including Tau and Eldar.

morgoth wrote:

partninja wrote:
I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.

/Sarcasm

Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.

I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.

4++ and +1T is way better. You don't get any more instant death from anything S8-9, so basically almost nothing in the game can deny your two wounds anymore, that IS badass.

It also makes you more resilient against S4 and even S5 and S6 spam including Tau and Eldar.

I mean....Wraiths still have a 3+......for real.

 krodarklorr wrote:

morgoth wrote:

partninja wrote:
I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.

/Sarcasm

Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.

I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.

4++ and +1T is way better. You don't get any more instant death from anything S8-9, so basically almost nothing in the game can deny your two wounds anymore, that IS badass.

It also makes you more resilient against S4 and even S5 and S6 spam including Tau and Eldar.

I mean....Wraiths still have a 3+......for real.

Then it's just a friggin awesome buff to a unit that was already very scary.

Doesn't that make them some sort of undercosted TWC defense wise ?

 krodarklorr wrote:

partninja wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:

partninja wrote:
I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.

/Sarcasm

Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.

I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.

The elites slot is looking a lot better now with things I am going to proxy and play test now.

I'll still probably play my list as a large Phalanx with hordes of warriors and Immortals.

Wraiths are 3++ and +1T

Phase Shifters are 4++ now. Previously this is what Wraiths had. Unless they get a new piece of wargear that gives them 3++ and I missed it?

Wraiths have Wraith Form, which gives them the 3++. They don't have Phase Shifters anymore.

Yep. Another thing borrowed from the 3rd ed book.
Give the monolith DS protection and throw pariahs back in, and this is almost 3rd ed v2

morgoth wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

morgoth wrote:

partninja wrote:
I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.

/Sarcasm

Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.

I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.

4++ and +1T is way better. You don't get any more instant death from anything S8-9, so basically almost nothing in the game can deny your two wounds anymore, that IS badass.

It also makes you more resilient against S4 and even S5 and S6 spam including Tau and Eldar.

I mean....Wraiths still have a 3+......for real.

Then it's just a friggin awesome buff to a unit that was already very scary.

Doesn't that make them some sort of undercosted TWC defense wise ?

I mean, I honestly don't know why they buffed Wraiths. Buffed them hard. I rarely used them anyways, but now it appears to be the only way to go. Now T5, still a 3++, the have Fleet now, they go at Init 5 if you take Whip Coils (Which is overall now cheaper. 43 ppm as opposed to 45 ppm in the old dex).

 krodarklorr wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

morgoth wrote:

partninja wrote:
I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.

/Sarcasm

Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.

I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.

4++ and +1T is way better. You don't get any more instant death from anything S8-9, so basically almost nothing in the game can deny your two wounds anymore, that IS badass.

It also makes you more resilient against S4 and even S5 and S6 spam including Tau and Eldar.

I mean....Wraiths still have a 3+......for real.

Then it's just a friggin awesome buff to a unit that was already very scary.

Doesn't that make them some sort of undercosted TWC defense wise ?

I mean, I honestly don't know why they buffed Wraiths. Buffed them hard. I rarely used them anyways, but now it appears to be the only way to go. Now T5, still a 3++, the have Fleet now, they go at Init 5 if you take Whip Coils (Which is overall now cheaper. 43 ppm as opposed to 45 ppm in the old dex).

There you have it, they just got a good nerf.

If indeed they get to pay for I5 instead of reducing enemies to I1, that's a decent nerf.

It means they go down to 1 when I charge them with banshees for example, and a Daemon Prince will just hurt them bad before they start fighting back.

Still.... crazy amount of resilience per point isn't it ?

morgoth wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

morgoth wrote:

partninja wrote:
I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.

/Sarcasm

Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.

I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.

4++ and +1T is way better. You don't get any more instant death from anything S8-9, so basically almost nothing in the game can deny your two wounds anymore, that IS badass.

It also makes you more resilient against S4 and even S5 and S6 spam including Tau and Eldar.

I mean....Wraiths still have a 3+......for real.

Then it's just a friggin awesome buff to a unit that was already very scary.

Doesn't that make them some sort of undercosted TWC defense wise ?

I mean, I honestly don't know why they buffed Wraiths. Buffed them hard. I rarely used them anyways, but now it appears to be the only way to go. Now T5, still a 3++, the have Fleet now, they go at Init 5 if you take Whip Coils (Which is overall now cheaper. 43 ppm as opposed to 45 ppm in the old dex).

There you have it, they just got a good nerf.

If indeed they get to pay for I5 instead of reducing enemies to I1, that's a decent nerf.

It means they go down to 1 when I charge them with banshees for example, and a Daemon Prince will just hurt them bad before they start fighting back.

Still.... crazy amount of resilience per point isn't it ?

Eh, I'm not worried. Still T5 with a 3++. They'll survive pretty much anything that charges, even a Daemon Prince.

 krodarklorr wrote:


Eh, I'm not worried. Still T5 with a 3++. They'll survive pretty much anything that charges, even a Daemon Prince.

I'm aware and that's fething scary.

Maybe that's part of GW's new vision on assault.

"We'll make it work, with crazy good units like TWC."

morgoth wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


Eh, I'm not worried. Still T5 with a 3++. They'll survive pretty much anything that charges, even a Daemon Prince.

I'm aware and that's fething scary.

Maybe that's part of GW's new vision on assault.

"We'll make it work, with crazy good units like TWC."

Eh, I still don't care to use wraiths. If anything, I would love to use Flayed Ones with a D-Lord, but I'm not $45 on 5 failcast models.

 krodarklorr wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


Eh, I'm not worried. Still T5 with a 3++. They'll survive pretty much anything that charges, even a Daemon Prince.

I'm aware and that's fething scary.

Maybe that's part of GW's new vision on assault.

"We'll make it work, with crazy good units like TWC."

Eh, I still don't care to use wraiths. If anything, I would love to use Flayed Ones with a D-Lord, but I'm not $45 on 5 failcast models.

I made my own from extra warriors, green stuff, and plasticard.

I am pouting over the apparent 20PPM scarabs. Last time they had this stat line (well, except they were jetbikes instead of beasts) they were only 16 ppm...

Not overly heartbroken, other than the loss of my Veils, but definitely pouting.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:


My grief, good sir, is not that Necrons are bad. If anything, they got better in a lot of areas, and their playstyle shifted. This is fine, and to be expected with a new codex. I don't give two gaks about competitive play in a game that is so widely unbalanced, even though Necrons weren't the best army out there. My grief is mostly with the fact that they managed to take away even more flavor from an already flavorless army IMO. Hence my disinterest with the book.

So basically you object to the changes for thematic and fluff reasons?

You really should have clarified this in the first post and listed what you did & didn't like. Since it was vague, naturally people just jumped in to point out all of the positive changes to RP and formations and what not.

I've been playing Necrons since the black codex - what 4th ed or 5th Ed. I loved the last codex and - I don't think this one is that much different from it.

Crypteks are still in the army - although I will grant you they lost some of their diversity. It felt like they didn't want to make a multipart plastic kit for them so they just made them more generic. I'll miss that aspect.

All other changes have either been "no change" or "positive" IMO. Honestly what else did they lose? Nothing really. All the units are still there... most of the same powers...
Other than Crypteks I can't think of one change that resulted in loss of flavor... certainly not enough to quit the entire game over. Can you list the ones you dislike?

Certainly. And there are things I dislike that aren't necessarily fluff things. There were things I was hoping to change that didn't, or didn't how I wanted them to.

- Ctans got more flavorful, yet are useless since their powers are random, still cost the same as a Land Raider, and didn't gain any movement buffs or survivability. So, still on the shelf.
- Overlords will most likely run away from anything decent in CC, and don't provide any real benefit to their army besides a Res orb for their unit, and Phaeron is gone. Why would you take Phaeron away....
- Crypteks, as we've discussed.
- Imotekh lost a bit of flavor, but got cheaper. That being said, I don't think he's worth his points as a LoW.
- Obyron sucks now. He's just a warscythe with WS6 pretty much.
- Living metal is meh.
- Lychguard didn't really get any different, though they are better.
- Particle Weapons didn't receive anything. There's still little reason to use them.
- Tesla got nerfed to the point where it is practically useless now on most platforms besides the Night Scythe.
- The Relics, while cool, are mostly One Use Only things. That's disappointing.
- The Wargear selection has gone DOWN from their previous book. And I thought they were bland before.
- Destroyer Lords are still the same, so boring.
- I would have been happier if they just removed MSS from the book. They will never see play.
- GW seems to still think Fear is worth anything. I don't understand why.
- Reanimation, while better, doesn't feel like Necrons anymore.
- 5th Ed. Was "Take a Warscythe on your Overlord". Now, 7th ed is "Take a Warscythe on your Overlord".

As I said, not everything is a direct dislike of fluff, a lot of it is still mechanics, but it's disappointing nonetheless. The army seems to have lost it's appeal, and to anyone going to troll, this is coming from someone who never spammed Night Scythes or A Barges. I'm just sad I'll never get to use Barges again. Or the monolith, for that matter.

I decided to look at each of these points because a lot of it is complaining just to complain.
1. C'Tan always had crap powers. At least the powers themselves, while random, are completely better. Not to mention that The Nightbringer has Psychic Shriek, essentially. If you want more of a buff to survivability, there's a fairly cheap formation to help with that.
2. Foot Overlords DID THAT ANYWAY. Overlords aren't known for killing power anyway; that's what Destroyer Lords are for.
3. Crypteks were overall buffed. They were too expensive as shooting platforms anyway, and the Haywire Stick, which I loved, was a bit over the top. Now they're a support HQ, which feels more correct compared to what was either an expensive shooting attack or a sacrificial Haywire Stick. Not like the other options were exceptional anyway.
4. He's 190 points. That's not bad for a Foot Overlord with decent shooting attacks. I would say the Lightning attack was BUFFED, since it's much more likely to activate. Even if it only lasts one turn, I'd rather have better activation. He can also take up a non-LOW slot in one of the formations.
5. That's what Obyron always WAS. Pretending otherwise is pure denial on your part.
6. Explain the complaints about Living Metal.
7. This statement is a contradiction. If they didn't really become any different, how are they better. Sometimes a price cut is literally all that's needed to make a more attractive option presentable, and with the buffs to WBB they became even more hard to kill.
8. There wasn't much reason to use them to begin with. However, they're a cheap shooting attack on Wraiths, and a minor counter for swarms when used with Spyders and Stalkers.
9. It's useless on Immortals, but that's it. If you're constantly having to jink your Barges, there's something wrong with your average rolling. No sympathy given on this end, I don't care.
10. And this is an issue why? They're cheap enough as is that you shouldn't really care.
11. Except they have more options and are slightly cheaper at base cost? What exactly is boring about Destroyer Lords?
12. It's a 10 point upgrade. There's lots of 10 point upgrades that never see the light of day. If there's room, taking it doesn't really hurt anything though. You can go ahead and claim it's useless against certain armies, but there's a 10 Point Meltagun that's disappointed it's facing Tyranids. SO what's the issue?
13. Fair point on Fear. It's not the single greatest rule ever.
14. I fail to see how it isn't Necrons, when you're putting yourself together when getting shot at. Coupled with it being buffed, you just seem disappointed not to set things on their side or use bloody counters. Being sinfully durable IS Necrons.
15. It's always been that way since they don't have many weapon options to begin with. That's like complaining that you always take a PF/TH on a Chapter Master. Nothing says you have to, but it's simply the best option.

Obyron used to be a massive mobility boost to your army. :p

I just dislike that they removed his "Save Zahndrekh"-ability.
They are no longer a duo that can be taken as a single HQ slot too.

6. Explain the complaints about Living Metal.

I don't get this either, especially with the Detachment.
Old: Ignore Shaken/Stunned on a roll.
New + Decurion: Ignore them. Also regain HP's on Heavies on a roll.

Vaktathi wrote:CC is hardly negligent in this edition, only largely mechanized MEQ CC (which many equate to being CC in general). Wraiths have been a staple in many top tournament Necron armies for quite some time.

40pts for Fearless T5 W2 3++ A3 S6 Rending "beast" models, are certainly going to win lots of games for people.

I really hope that they errata wraith to 1 wound, or T4 and say it was just a typo, otherwise I would make use of "my own" rule that doesnt need any permission by the other player, tournament organizer or GW: I just dont play a game with necron playes who field wraith. This rule also works for WS spam and al the other stupid sh.. that is so common in the tournament scene.

Overall, reading the leaks, it's hard to see where this was anything more than a substantial increase in power to an already strong army.

Some stuff is different, a couple things got nerfed (though nowhere near as hard as similarly complained about units in other books, they got kid-glove nerfs), most of the book got buffed, some unnecessarily so (wraiths, ghost arks), and the formations are exceedingly powerful, particularly with the all new "formations within formations" thing.

This book is going to be right up there with Eldar on the powerscale methinks, possibly even supplanting them. It can do CC great, it can do footslogging great, it can do mechanized great, and it can still do flyers pretty damn well too. The only thing it doesn't do is play in the psychic phase. IF you're a Necron player, it's hard to see where you're not going to be impressed with this book, at least in terms of gameplay. Unless you were super-married to the old Bargelords and built your entire army around Tesla+Jink.

The only thing it doesn't do is play in the psychic phase.

Gloom Prism now gives AW and the range went from 3" to 12".
That is quite an awesome buff

Kangodo wrote:

The only thing it doesn't do is play in the psychic phase.

Gloom Prism now gives AW and the range went from 3" to 12".
That is quite an awesome buff

Adamantium Will is nice, but it doesn't help against the really bad Psyker stuff like Invisibility.

That is true, but who can deal with that?
At least we have a semi-Invisibility of our own.

 docdoom77 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

The only thing it doesn't do is play in the psychic phase.

Gloom Prism now gives AW and the range went from 3" to 12".
That is quite an awesome buff

Adamantium Will is nice, but it doesn't help against the really bad Psyker stuff like Invisibility.

Nothing will help you when it comes to facing Invisibility. It's the single most broken thing to exist in 7th right now. It was a neat idea, as most things are with GW. But poorly executed...as most things are with GW.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Obyron used to be a massive mobility boost to your army. :p

He has a once-per-game version of that. Not like anybody used it that constantly anyway. Even Pylonstar users used the teleportation only a couple of times in a game.

morgoth wrote:
Then it's just a friggin awesome buff to a unit that was already very scary.

Doesn't that make them some sort of undercosted TWC defense wise ?

Wraiths were undercosted back when they were T4 2W 3++.

Now, they make Riptides and 5th edition Vandettas look overpriced.

Do you think the fact that Destroyer Lords can no longer accompany wraiths (without halving their speed, anyway) will help bring them down at all?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Then it's just a friggin awesome buff to a unit that was already very scary.

Doesn't that make them some sort of undercosted TWC defense wise ?

Wraiths were undercosted back when they were T4 2W 3++.

Now, they make Riptides and 5th edition Vandettas look overpriced.

Exactly. With the 5 points raise, they should have stayed the same. Now they get T5, fleet, ignore Terrain and I5 on demand... cant believe it. But hey,see the positive things: All the Eldar Players can now share the hate with the necron players and nobody wont complain about Tau anymore xD

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Obyron used to be a massive mobility boost to your army. :p

He has a once-per-game version of that. Not like anybody used it that constantly anyway. Even Pylonstar users used the teleportation only a couple of times in a game.

He and my two VeilTeks were my entire army's mobilty quotient until now :p other tha the Beasts and jetbikes.

BlaxicanX wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Then it's just a friggin awesome buff to a unit that was already very scary.

Doesn't that make them some sort of undercosted TWC defense wise ?

Wraiths were undercosted back when they were T4 2W 3++.

Now, they make Riptides and 5th edition Vandettas look overpriced.

This pretty much.

This entire release is looking like another major shift in GW design paradigm, having much more in common with the Eldar in terms of power level, and certainly surpassing them in special rules.