Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Add me to the "wuuuut" camp.

Seems like a terrible deal compared to FK, Rum and Bones, Blood rage and other recent campaigns. No big guys from the beginning? Lots "shrine ninjas"? Okay. Not with the €:$ conversion rates.

Ok... After wading through the comments, and other things on the net, this is what I have figured out.

Like blood bowl, you only need a certain number of players to play a match. Buuuuuut In league play, you WILL need a full roster for substitutions, injuries and so on. When they speak about the 2 shrines and 2 clans being 4 teams and you can proxy, that is basically not true. Because we haven't seen real gameplay info, people are confused.

The issue is the core Bloodbowl came with 12 plastic humans and 12 plastic orcs. You need 11 to play. You can have up to 16. So they sold metal 12-man teams as expansions.

So an orc player or a human player to have a full REAL team actually needed the core plastics and the metal expansion.

If you look at the SCROLL graphic, why have like 20 lines for players when you only have like 9 in the box? Because what they are telling us is the core box with shrine ninjas and the 2 clans is enough to make 2 teams period.

Shrine Ninja = One off game
Clans = Can be proxied as shrine ninja for one off game
A real team for league play = Shrine + Clan

The 100$ pledge gives you basically two teams.

SPM's butt must be hurting from straddling the fence by being coy about how the models are for 4-player experiences when players will have similar colored models , because if they explicitly say 'you need a shrine and a clan to play 1 team, and you can't play 4player out of the box' they will take a hit hard, and rightfully so. If they would have been explicitly clear about how it worked, I think people would be glad to have 2 sets of models for complete teams.

I have to say, the official comments are very glib and entitled much how Bunnies vs Zombies was, and is following almost the exact same fake stretch goals model. That game was crushed under ill will due to the general rudeness and lack of honesty in that campaign. I suspect Chibi models will keep this one trudging along, but the fact that every goal to 200k is boldface fake stretch goals and a joke compared to TFK is not doing them any favors. People who would have been all-in due to models are now demanding gameplay demos which it is clear SPM does not have this game completed and ready to show.

Creator comments on this one seem nice enough to me. KS backers are prone to Chicken Little rants because, honestly, they are super excited about the product and want MOAR information and MOAR savings and MOAR stretch goals. It's understandable but hardly presents an accurate picture of the project. I'm backing now and I will see what it looks like in fifteen days. As per usual, Day 2 is too soon to judge.

I'm with Manchu on this, except I would clarify that the KS is still less than 24 hours old.

In this time, it has raised $125k, which is about 2/3 as much as SDE raised on its first day. So this is tracking toward $750k, not $1.15M. Still, not a bad number.

Hopefully, SPM is paying attention and adjust SGs accordingly.

I certainly hope they're taking a look at the stretches. I'm not liking what I see. I'll at least wait and see what things look like when the campaign is nearing completing.

But I still don't get paid stretch goals.

How is it Mercs/ MegaCon have been able to offer free stretch goals for all their games, yet so many others like SodaPop and Mantic continue to make us wait for certain milestones to get the option to even purchase stuff?

Eh, it's just how SPM does things.

How else would they fill a 30-day timeline?

Paid SGs help increase the funding level by appealing to existing backers. It's quite common. I was miffed the first time I saw it, too. Now it doesn't phase me at all. If you don't want a paid SG, don't add money to your pledge -- KS is very "vote with your wallet." If paid SGs really drag on the project, SPM will get the idea.

 Manchu wrote:
Paid SGs help increase the funding level by appealing to existing backers. It's quite common. I was miffed the first time I saw it, too. Now it doesn't phase me at all. If you don't want a paid SG, don't add money to your pledge -- KS is very "vote with your wallet." If paid SGs really drag on the project, SPM will get the idea.

But why was TFK able to provide us a paid add-on with 1 hero, 12 models and a Big guy, and now in this campaign we need to have one goal to unlock the paid add-on and another to expand it?

That is the issue. All the stretches right now shown to 200k are fake. If we didn't need to stretch to add an oni to the clans which should have already have been there, then that would have been available for something else.

Byakko, Shrine tokens and Oni are all fake stretches when compared to their peers on TFK. I think the 225k stretch proves that because no clan can ever exist without the hero and oni, so the idea that the first 3 would have had no heroes and Oni is intellectually dishonest. It would have been like having a bloodbowl team with no passer or catcher. Note how 250k will probably be the Blue hero with the anchor, again, another fake goal. I would rather filler like shrine ninja recolors than fake goals.

So it appears like all 6 clans will cost 220$

nkelsch wrote:
But why was TFK able to provide us a paid add-on with 1 hero, 12 models and a Big guy, and now in this campaign we need to have one goal to unlock the paid add-on and another to expand it?

So it appears like all 6 clans will cost 220$

NAS gives 2 "free" adds with 2 heroes, 2x 10 models and 2 big guys.

$220 for all 6 clans looks correct.

The problem is the generic ninja. They don't add value like SPM thought they would.

I don't mind "fake stretch goals."

But let's define that term. What makes a SG fake? I think most people call a SG fake if they believe it should have been included in the sweet spot pledge from the beginning of the project. That is, the component in question is necessary to play the game such that they game is interesting enough to merit its price tag. Logically, a SG is "real" if it is effectively extraneous.

As I understand it, the theory goes that creators use fake SGs to fill out their project. In essence, they expect a project will earn X amount of money in Y amount of time. The fake SGs are already supported by X amount of money. The creator simply "reveals" them one by one to keep backers and potential backers interested in the project. (For example, we are talking about it right now.)

Why do people object to fake SGs? A project's funding will only support so many SGs. Some people believe that fake SGs take up the limited number of slots that should be occupied by real SGs. I think this is misguided. Any creator worth backing has planned almost all SGs (if not exactly which will be revealed when) before the KS opens -- with the possible exception of end-of-KS pledge surges. That means, the number of real SGs has already been decided. Fake SGs are not taking up those slots; they simply push the real SGs farther up in terms of how much it will take to unlock them.

This is why I don't mind fake SGs: real SGs, by definition, are extraneous to the game I am backing. Real SGs cost time above and beyond what it will take me to get the game I want. This is especially frustrating when the real SGs are chintzy crap like commemorative medallions or similar junk. That garbage creates delays that have nothing to do with the product I am (essentially) pre-ordering. Meanwhile, fake SGs are by definition part of the initial plan. They are far less likely to create delays.

Again, I agree with Manchu. Without the increased sales, the game wouldn't have Shrines. Or Oni. Or whatever.

Now, obviously, SPM wants them very much, so they're early in the campaign, but they also have to be prepared for lower levels of funding.

Quite frankly, with the sheer number of duplicates, I'm surprised they didn't do the CMoN thing and add extras one-by-one.
___

I do disagree about about the medallions. I would like more Princess Coins for SDE.

What do these Princess Coins do?

I feel like I am about to fall hard for the new SDE.

On-topic, can someone confirm that the "Bag O Samurai" add-on has no bearing on the game? I think SPM said as much in the comments, I just want to make sure I am not misinterpreting that.

here's the comment

@Vincent 6 is enough for the game, but we like Samurai models, and figured other people do too..... @Coralline Offering the general shrine ninja in the core game gives players freedom to experiment with different clans and their various play-styles. Once a player settles on a clan they like they can pick up the clan box, or just keep playing with the shrine ninja.

Mar 24 2015 on Ninja All-Stars

Thanks.

They are really cool but that money can go to better use on other add-ons for this KS.

Also remember Forgotten King was a re-do of an existing game,

So some art assets, model designs (and maybe moulds), etc will have been able to be re-used

Also we don't know how their books looked after the KS (maybe they were overly generous and need to be less so this time round)

If you like the idea but don't like how much is on offer check back on the last day when you can make a real judgement

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm with Manchu on this, except I would clarify that the KS is still less than 24 hours old.

In this time, it has raised $125k, which is about 2/3 as much as SDE raised on its first day. So this is tracking toward $750k, not $1.15M. Still, not a bad number.

Hopefully, SPM is paying attention and adjust SGs accordingly.

Looking at the Kicktraqs - SDE raised $187k and change on it's first full day (it launched at like 11p.m. the night before - so it had a little bit before then too). but from 1700 backers.

NAS raised $100k and change but from 900 backers, because NAS launched with $50 worth of optional add-ons from the very get go. SDE didn't even have $50 worth of stuff to add until it was past the $300k mark.

So I think the numbers aren't as close as they appear.

I'm thinking, if it's possible, I might just pledge my favorite Clan + a few Ronin and the SDE cards (once they're all unlocked). But a great thing about Soda Pop is that at least no matter what, I'll be able to get what I want at retail. Still much love for them on eschewing exclusives.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Also remember Forgotten King was a re-do of an existing game,

So some art assets, model designs (and maybe moulds), etc will have been able to be re-used

Also we don't know how their books looked after the KS (maybe they were overly generous and need to be less so this time round)

If you like the idea but don't like how much is on offer check back on the last day when you can make a real judgement

Was there that much re-used in TFK? I'm not sure there was. 100% new heroes, monsters, art, etc.....

Love the artwork and the minis too. Hate KS and the ridiculous waiting times so wake me up when these are actually for sale next year.

We shouldn't forget that Ninja All Stars is a brand new game for SPM and as such any 'generosity' on their part would have to be held in reserve as the community's reception of the game and subsequent KS backing would be harder to gauge. They might have things waiting in the wings for a threshold where they become viable 'thank yous' for fans.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't mind "fake stretch goals."
But let's define that term. What makes a SG fake? I think most people call a SG fake if they believe it should have been included in the sweet spot pledge from the beginning of the project. That is, the component in question is necessary to play the game such that they game is interesting enough to merit its price tag. Logically, a SG is "real" if it is effectively extraneous.

For me it's not only inclusion of Fake SGs in the "Sweet spot" but in the base game, which happens a bit too often - perhaps not in CMoN campaigns but certainly in Mantic ones. Take a look at the DZ2 campaign and how it started off. As an incomplete boxed game, with "stretch goals" to add in stuff that we know will be in the retail box. Let alone the initial "sweet spot" not being anywhere near $115 retail value (never mind "KS prices")

 Manchu wrote:
What do these Princess Coins do?

I feel like I am about to fall hard for the new SDE.

In SDE, the Heroes earn a Princess Coins when they destroy one of the 3-5 Monster Spawn points. They can be cashed in for various beneficial effects. In the SDE:FK KS, backers got one coin for "free", but we could (in theory) use up to 5.

The new SDE:FK is cleaner than before, with far more variety of Heroes and Monsters. It's a fun game, and I cannot wait for my huge delivery of SDE stuff!

The fact that NAS will have limited ability to cross into the new SDE is nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Also remember Forgotten King was a re-do of an existing game,

So some art assets, model designs (and maybe moulds), etc will have been able to be re-used

Also we don't know how their books looked after the KS (maybe they were overly generous and need to be less so this time round)

If you like the idea but don't like how much is on offer check back on the last day when you can make a real judgement

Less than 5% of the art was reused - FK created all new artwork, all new models (with new mold tools), etc. SDE:FK is very much a clean 2nd Edition that stands on its own; the only reuse being for 1E stuff carried into 2E.

SDE:FK should have been fine financially - it's clear they didn't really expect to break $1M, so making more stuff likely gave them the extra cash to fund NAS.

I hope that NAS comes into its own over the next 4 weeks, and hope it has an awesomely high value base pledge.

 Azazelx wrote:
For me it's not only inclusion of Fake SGs in the "Sweet spot" but in the base game

By "sweet spot" I was trying to capture a category wider (but inclusive of) what passes for a complete game given that "basic" does not seem to always mean "complete." I have noticed a trend in big box board game KS projects to distinguish between the "basic game" on the one hand and what I would consider the full game on the other hand; i.e., a game that has enough variety to be interesting for more than a half dozen plays. That is to say, I think more and more board games on KS seem to offer what I would consider an incomplete game at the "basic" level.

I like that SPM has a single pledge level. As far as I can tell (I am happy to be corrected), NAS has everything two players need for league play. I think that feels very complete.

2nd pledge level coming tomorrow

Creator Soda Pop Miniatures 8 minutes ago
Hello, hello,
We have been watching all the comments and have a second exciting pledge level coming that we think you will like!

Might be a cheaper version without the 2 clans no details yet

 DaveC wrote:
2nd pledge level coming tomorrow

Creator Soda Pop Miniatures 8 minutes ago
Hello, hello,
We have been watching all the comments and have a second exciting pledge level coming that we think you will like!

Might be a cheaper version without the 2 clans no details yet

Yeppers, This is a good thing. I think it makes sense for people who want to play. They can get the core materials and a clan of their choice for reasonable cost. That should capture the attention of people who would potentially be scared off from a 130$+ buy-in.

nkelsch wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
2nd pledge level coming tomorrow

Creator Soda Pop Miniatures 8 minutes ago
Hello, hello,
We have been watching all the comments and have a second exciting pledge level coming that we think you will like!

Might be a cheaper version without the 2 clans no details yet

Yeppers, This is a good thing. I think it makes sense for people who want to play. They can get the core materials and a clan of their choice for reasonable cost. That should capture the attention of people who would potentially be scared off from a 130$+ buy-in.

Gotta Get Em All - $300

Intriguing - and glad to see they are listening.

I'm betting it will be something like $60 - base game components, + clan of choice & single set of shrine ninjas. Include some, but not all stretch goals/bonuses. I'd be down with that, I think.

** Though I guess it could be a collector's pledge level too, as Dentry points out. But I dunno - given how many people seem unhappy (or downright ridiculously hostile) about the shrine ninjas, I would hope it'd be something smaller.

Ohh... mystery!

Creator Soda Pop Miniatures about 1 hour ago

Ninja stealth stretch goal update on the front page.

It took me a long time to see it - but they updated the $150k stretch goal to include the hero to BOTH the Ika and Tora clans. So it's only one fake SG instead of two. A small, but nice move.

The new levels really confuse me ...

NINJA MASTER!
Ninja All-Stars Core Game
+ 4 Shrine Ninja Teams
+ 2 Unlocked Clan Boxes of your choice
+ Momotaru
+ Kunoichi Candy
+ Stealth Cola
+ Super Dungeon: Ninja Card Pack
+ All "Free" Stretch Goals.

ELEMENTAL MASTER!
Ninja All-Stars Core Game
+ 4 Unlocked Clan Boxes of your choice
+ Momotaru
+ Kunoichi Candy
+ Stealth Cola
+ Super Dungeon: Ninja Card Pack
+ All "Free" Stretch Goals.

So

+ 4 Shrine Ninja Teams
+ 2 Unlocked Clan Boxes of your choice

OR

+ 4 Unlocked Clan Boxes of your choice

???

I'm usually really forgiving...but..what the f**k is going on here. All these new options are just weird

if i don't get the elemental box I don't get any shrine ninjas?...do I want shrine ninjas...cause I don't need four colors of the same miniature so of course I'm gonna get the elemental box.

Or should I?

This kisckstarter is not off to a good start.