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 FakeBritishPerson wrote:

This thread has gotten weird.

I was just trying to lighten the mood. I didn't think anyone would take the nude beach analogy seriously

Following Peregrine's example, I guess I should have said, the local diner where etiquette is that you don't stink when you go inside? (That's a joke too, I'm falling over laughing here... don't take it seriously, man...)

 Talys wrote:

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:

This thread has gotten weird.

I was just trying to lighten the mood. I didn't think anyone would take the nude beach analogy seriously

Following Peregrine's example, I guess I should have said, the local diner where etiquette is that you don't stink when you go inside? (That's a joke too, I'm falling over laughing here... don't take it seriously, man...)

Fair enough. I was just saying in general. I honestly, and stupidly, thought that this might not turn into people getting mad because 40k started the second world war or whatever.

What's wrong with a little informed judgement. "Judging" is not an inherently bad activity. We judge things every day.

I look across the table at a field of unpainted grey and I can pretty easily "judge" that you value the visual aspect of the game less than than I do. This is because regardless of personal situation, you have made the personal choice to put unpainted figures on the table.

It doesn't make you a bad person (It's not a moral issue), but it is an entirely accurate judgement that you don't value the entirety of the hobby (of which painting models is a part) as I do. There are probably plenty of cool, nice and great humanitarians who probably put grey hordes on the table, but that' s not enough. When it comes to hobbying, I'm looking for likeminded folks who value the entirety of the hobby as I do, and that includes painted miniatures.

As I said in an earlier thread, for those of us who value painted minis as core to the hobby, a game with a cool opponent who fields unpainted minis is still a game with unpainted minis, and that's just not the experience that many of us are looking for.

 Eilif wrote:
What's wrong with a little informed judgement. "Judging" is not an inherently bad activity

No, it's not inherently bad.... but in this context it almost always is. Your own blog post that you posted a while back talks about how people who don't paint their models are "lower[ing] the hobby" and "does no one any favors" for not meeting the "standards" you decided to set for participation in "the hobby".

That is very much a negative judgement. You can simply avoid playing against such people without doing so.

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
I only have so much time to spend on my luxury hobbies, why waste it playing against someone who I'm clearly not going to enjoy the time with?

Which also begs the question, why should I use my very limited time on painting when I have the chance to actually get in a game with people I do enjoy spending time with?

It's very simple. Some people are into the modeling and painting side of things, which is great! I want to play games with my friends, so that's where the time gets spent in my hobby.

If you're not in it for modelling then why not ditch miniatures altogether?

I enjoy building miniatures. I enjoy converting miniatures. I enjoy moving the miniatures around a table, making pew pew noises (or tsssiiing noises when my Dark Elves are on the warpath) and rolling dice.

I don't enjoy painting anywhere near as much as I do building and playing.

If you're willing to help me strip and repaint my models when I am unhappy with a rush paint job; I'll totally field painted.

Painting is my favorite part of the hobby, yet I still haven't played a game of 40k or WHFB with a fully painted army yet! :(

I try my hardest though and week in week out you will see the army progress.

I'm about to play a Necromunda campaign with fully painted gangs, terrain and on a battle board. I can't wait! :-D

Depends on the person.

I've made the switch from power gamer to collector so shall probably only be fielding painted models, based minimum as I don't have a lot of free time. I find more enjoyment from painting these days and looking at gorgeous models, although I will play against unpainted.

My friend is a power gamer (and probably forever will be) and has a unpainted Centurion star list, aside an Imperial Knight that he's contemplating stripping anyway. Also has base coated Tau that doesn't see a lot of paint put on them. He just likes beating opponents into the dirt, thinking up of cheese lists (he wants to start Eldar and build the dreaded Scatbike and Wraith Formation) and generally leaving nothing on the table.

These threads are always entertaining, especially when either side attempts to portray some moral high ground. My turn? : )

Personally, I've never fielded an unpainted model. To me it means the unit isn't ready, due to it's availability, lack of equipment or training. It encourages me to get new units ready for battle! We play 'practice' games where people are allowed to bring unpainted things on occasion but if playing a campaign or something 'serious' those models aren't allowed. Once you get used to playing armies with unpainted miniatures there is little incentive to finish them. Don't get mad at me if I wouldn't play against your unpainted army. It's YOUR army, but it would be OUR game if played. So...no thanks.

I admit I don't understand the attitude that painting figures is an optional aspect of the hobby. If it's just rules on a table, why bother with scenery? You can argue that cardboard chits don't represent the game models' mechanics and be correct, but why bother with ruins, buildings and trees when beer bottles, tennis shoes and cereal boxes suffice for terrain? Isn't the point to create a spectacle? To me the game is an excuse (w/ GW's current rules a rather poor excuse) to play with cool little miniatures, to give them purpose beyond the fun of creating them. If it's purely competition, aren't there much better formats?

 Talys wrote:
Call them Grey Knights!
The funny thing is, wayyyyy back in the day, people would play unpainted Grey Knights, and they would be.... beige. The color of the old old old space marine plastics .

??
First time I saw grey knights was these guys:

They were metal.
Agreed though that the first release marines in general were in that tan plastic.

I personally am having a hard time justifying unpainted anything being seen in public other than to show a customization or demonstrate some creative use of magnets.

It helps also that the best painted army at the FLGS is also played by the nicest person so it has forced me me to get at least one army looking good.
I starting bringing completely painted terrain (bless airbrush!) since the FLGS stuff is... ummm... not good.

 e.earnshaw wrote:


I think it dosnt help new players how much the standerd of painting has gone up used to be you could get away with only five paints and one brush. So it becomes i thing of you being to scared of ruining your nice new models.

I think this is really a big part of it.

When I got into the hobby there were very little in the way of highlights, a "good" base was painted straight green with green flocking, there wasn't a whole lot of blending on models, and weathering was unheard of outside of Orcs.

Compare what constituted a good / great painted model from second or third edition, and look at what constitutes good or great right now. It's a whole hell of a lot more intimidating to start painting your dudes these days than it was back then, but painting hasn't really gotten any easier for a beginner.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
What's wrong with a little informed judgement. "Judging" is not an inherently bad activity

No, it's not inherently bad.... but in this context it almost always is. Your own blog post that you posted a while back talks about how people who don't paint their models are "lower[ing] the hobby" and "does no one any favors" for not meeting the "standards" you decided to set for participation in "the hobby".

That is very much a negative judgement. You can simply avoid playing against such people without doing so.

True. Avoidance is easiest. Still, I stand by the "lowering" (maybe I should have said "Lessened") comment. I make the point in the blog that it is not a "moral" judgement, but as painted armies become less and less prevalent in the hobby, those who choose to field unpainted armies, quite literally "lessen" the hobby.

The fact is that if judging by the FLGS tables, the hobby looks less attractive now than it did in the past. That's a loss and "does no one any favors".

As for "standards" as a whole I didn't invent them and ignoring them doesn't make them go away. I could ramble on, but it's probably easier to reads the blog post as a whole for the practical application of "standards" in other hobbies (railroading, Classic cars, etc) that are similar to wargaming.
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/08/painting-matters-in-defense-of-hobby.html

Painting is an important part of the hobby next to the modelling, collecting and playing parts.
To me, unpainted miniatures have no place in 40k. The only acceptable reason for there being unpainted miniatures on the table is that you were planning to paint it, but did not get it ready in time for the game.
If you do not plan on painting your miniatures, why use them at all? The whole raison d'être for 40k is nice looking miniatures. If you ignore this point you might just as well be using bottle caps or cheap toy soldiers and save yourself a lot of money.

The honest to god truth is I hate painting, it's always a struggle even though I just paint table top quality, nothing fancy. The reason I slog through it is only because I expect my opponents to have painted armies. I have an entire series of pictures that would suck a lot if half the mini's were bare plastic.

 morganfreeman wrote:
but painting hasn't really gotten any easier for a beginner.

Sure it has. You don't have to paint everything to the highest standards of painting contests to meet the minimum painting requirement. And now it's very easy to paint to a basic standard: spray with colored primer, paint the details, cover the whole model in a black wash. If you're feeling really ambitious you might even drybrush a quick layer of highlights after the wash. And GW will even sell you the exact paints you need for a nice easy step-by-step process that takes all the guessing and creativity out of painting. And if you don't like GW's methods you can always follow one of the countless other tutorials you can find online. The way the world has changed in the past 10-20 years makes unpainted models less forgivable than it was when techniques were less developed and getting information was much harder.

I think it would be hard to argue that painting is 'not' part of the hobby. But it's also understandable that each of us weighs the different aspects at different levels of priority. Some folks grab the newest toy, rip it out of the back, pop a little glue on it and it's ready to go on the table in ten minutes. Other people (like myself) grab the latest toy, rush home to assemble it, and wouldn't dream of fielding it until it was painted - which, in itself, is part of the huge motivation to -paint- it in the first place.

In the groups I've gamed with in the past, everyone used painted stuff. It was just an expected thing. When someone in a rare circumstance plopped down an unpainted fig or unit - they'd get grief for awhile... but no one would refuse to play them. But if they showed up AGAIN, weeks later, and there's been zero progress made... you can bet the grief would escalate.

But I've also played regularly at stores where painting is completely optional, and despite the large paint racks on the wall from different companies, painting wasn't really encouraged/pushed. This was especially disheartening while playing -at- a GW store. Having your customers playing with painted stuff is like 'free advertising', and you'd think you'd want 'advertising' to look good.

That being said, I am totally for 'paint requirements' in tournaments. I am also for scoring the painting 'effort': if you do the 'primer + two color, spray at different angles, done', you're likely gonna get a lower painting score... but at least you do have color on your figs.

Privately, in a random pick-up game with a friend or two, I'll force myself to use fully painted units, but if the other guy doesn't have a painted list, I'd still play. I just might not seek them out again anytime soon, as the incentive to do so is less than if he had a fully painted list. (and of course, other factors like attitude come into play, as well).

When it comes down to it, like Eilif said, this isn't a 'moral issue'. It's a simple matter of preference. Some people prefer a window-seat on a plane because it enhances their experience... and some people prefer to play against painted armies because it enhances the experience.

I think a big part of overcoming the beginner's fear of painting miniatures is the realization of two facts.

You can strip and repaint miniatures as many times as you like. My Space Marines went into the Green Stuff half a dozen times as I both decided on what color scheme I want and as my painting skills got better. Same for my FoW British.

And remember the three foot rules. Don't think that your minis will look bad if they don't resemble the exact skill level as whats on the box. It takes a lot of practice to get that good. To begin, you can settle for what's called the three-foot or arm's-length rule. For most of the time, you'll be seeing your miniatures at arm's length on the table. If they look good from that distance, then they're good to go. It helps when you're terrible at certain details (eyes, for example) like I am.

Oh, and washes. I swear by a good brown or black wash on anything. A wash will make a decent tabletop quality paintjob look great.

 Peregrine wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
but painting hasn't really gotten any easier for a beginner.

Sure it has. You don't have to paint everything to the highest standards of painting contests to meet the minimum painting requirement. And now it's very easy to paint to a basic standard: spray with colored primer, paint the details, cover the whole model in a black wash. If you're feeling really ambitious you might even drybrush a quick layer of highlights after the wash. And GW will even sell you the exact paints you need for a nice easy step-by-step process that takes all the guessing and creativity out of painting.

I have to agree with this. It's never been easier for a beginner to get painting. In fact, free tutorials make it incredibly easy to achieve high quality results in almost any hobby with less effort and frustration than in the past. GW paint guides are just what my buddy started out with and in a year his figures looked better than mine.

Don't forget also colored primer sprays that make basecoating a breeze and the dipping methods that take basic block painting to a nice tabletop standard in one or two steps.

As a new player ( who has probably 95% of my army painted) my biggest determent from painting is simply the skill gap. I'm not good at painting, and I don't want to be bad to feel bad because my army looks bad. So the veteran 40k players kind of leave me feeling like the following are my only options.

1) Be outed for playing unpainted

2) Be outed because my paint skills are lackluster
or
3) Spend an absurd amount more money on a hobby that is already pricey to have a pro paint my army

To be honest that ruins the hobby for me. Hobbies and games are supposed to be about having fun, not being ridiculed and forced to spend a huge amount of time learning to paint well or spend a huge amount of money to hire someone who paints well.

At the store I work at we go out of the way to let people interested in the game know that they don't have to paint the models if they don't want to. Painting can be a huge boundary to a prospective player who has no painting skills and it's just makes for a great environment in the shop to encourage people to play how ever they want.

 infinite_array wrote:
I think a big part of overcoming the beginner's fear of painting miniatures is the realization of two facts.

You can strip and repaint miniatures as many times as you like. My Space Marines went into the Green Stuff half a dozen times as I both decided on what color scheme I want and as my painting skills got better. Same for my FoW British.

And remember the three foot rules. Don't think that your minis will look bad if they don't resemble the exact skill level as whats on the box. It takes a lot of practice to get that good. To begin, you can settle for what's called the three-foot or arm's-length rule. For most of the time, you'll be seeing your miniatures at arm's length on the table. If they look good from that distance, then they're good to go. It helps when you're terrible at certain details (eyes, for example) like I am.

Oh, and washes. I swear by a good brown or black wash on anything. A wash will make a decent tabletop quality paintjob look great.

I agree with this. It took me a while to realize that stripping paint off of my minis was possible to do so I could fix my mistakes. And we all know that Agrax Earthshade and Nuln Oil are the greatest things you can pick up t make minis pop. My guard would look awful without Nuln Oil

 FenixPhox wrote:
As a new player ( who has probably 95% of my army painted) my biggest determent from painting is simply the skill gap. I'm not good at painting, and I don't want to be bad to feel bad because my army looks bad. So the veteran 40k players kind of leave me feeling like the following are my only options.

1) Be outed for playing unpainted

2) Be outed because my paint skills are lackluster
or
3) Spend an absurd amount more money on a hobby that is already pricey to have a pro paint my army

To be honest that ruins the hobby for me. Hobbies and games are supposed to be about having fun, not being ridiculed and forced to spend a huge amount of time learning to paint well or spend a huge amount of money to hire someone who paints well.

At the store I work at we go out of the way to let people interested in the game know that they don't have to paint the models if they don't want to. Painting can be a huge boundary to a prospective player who has no painting skills and it's just makes for a great environment in the shop to encourage people to play how ever they want.

No one should be critising anyone for the skill (or lack of) in their painting. As long as they have made an honest effort (non of this three blobs of paint to try and get round three colour rules) it will be welcomed. We all started off like that, no one is born being able to paint. Give it a go.

Get a spray can of the base colour, a pot of lead bealcher, a brown or black wash (depending on the army) and a medium paintbrush. You will be amazed by how quickly you get stuff painted, how good it looks on the table and how quickly you improve.

All the minis you paint will then be ready for some more details, highlights and a wash when you want to take the next step. Build up one step at a time and soon you will be getting people asking you about your painting.

In historicals painted or not isn't even a question. Everything is painted before it goes on the table.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Call them Grey Knights!
The funny thing is, wayyyyy back in the day, people would play unpainted Grey Knights, and they would be.... beige. The color of the old old old space marine plastics .

??
First time I saw grey knights was these guys:

Spoiler:

They were metal.
Agreed though that the first release marines in general were in that tan plastic.

I personally am having a hard time justifying unpainted anything being seen in public other than to show a customization or demonstrate some creative use of magnets.

It helps also that the best painted army at the FLGS is also played by the nicest person so it has forced me me to get at least one army looking good.
I starting bringing completely painted terrain (bless airbrush!) since the FLGS stuff is... ummm... not good.

This is where I first saw them, in 1988:



They used the basic Mk6 armor used in the plastic Space marines box (The super awesome one that was posable! wheeee. I still have enough bits to maybe make one squad ); those were beige-colored plastic. I am pretty sure the metal (terminators) you have are newer, but it's possible that I just bought them later on, as my funds were pretty limited (allowance) back then. Mostly, because they are in Terminator armor, and those models came after tan plastic. I still have those too, though... I think 2 squads of 5 unpainted! The Ordo Malleus Daemonhunters and Inquisitors were probably around before in metal, in some fashion, but not the Terminator ones.

By the way, just for kicks, a few things for fun:

- Back in 1988, the price of this hardcover was $43.95. And no FLGS discounts back then; it's actually pricier than a current codex, LOL
- You could switch a flamer for a Graviton Gun for free!!!
- And Grey Knights could take Shuriken Catapults.
- Or a Conversion Beamer!
- Sergeants could have a Vortex Grenade, bwhahahahaha
- OMG look how many types of grenades there were. Anti-Plant! Choke! Scare Gas! Photon! Virus!! STASIS!!!!
- Remember Halluciongen?
- Wow, 260 points for 1 squad of tactical marines.
- Ordo Malleus faction had Grey Knights/Demonhunters/Inquisitors AND Imperial Guard AND Adeptus Arbites... with Webbers! Oh yeah, and you could add 0-2000 points of Sapce Marines hahaha. Guess they were starting the allies matrix early!

Holy CRAP there were a lot of rules and tables back then. Chaos attributes was 1d1000 to generate and covered 30+ pages. There were some real winners like: STUPID ("Some of the unit are merely idiotic..."), HORRIBLE STENCH, and INVENT YOUR OWN. And people thought Unbound was bad.

I absolutely hate painting models. Im bad at it and painting bores me. But I still get it done, it just makes the game more fun (for me anyways). I don't avoid playing people with grey legions, but id much prefer a coloured (even rather basic) army

I associate unpainted and poorly painted armies with smelly little screaming kids and stinky obnoxious man babies. I just don't have the time to get involved. No thanx.

 FenixPhox wrote:
I'm not good at painting

This can be fixed. Simple tabletop-standard painting (base + wash + highlight) is something that virtually everyone is capable of doing, if they put in the effort to learn how. And nobody can reasonably judge you for painting at a well-executed tabletop level. If people are really complaining that you aren't matching the best commission work and painting contest winners then the problem is with the TFGs in your group, not your painting.

 Peregrine wrote:

 FenixPhox wrote:
I'm not good at painting

This can be fixed. Simple tabletop-standard painting (base + wash + highlight) is something that virtually everyone is capable of doing, if they put in the effort to learn how. And nobody can reasonably judge you for painting at a well-executed tabletop level. If people are really complaining that you aren't matching the best commission work and painting contest winners then the problem is with the TFGs in your group, not your painting.

I echo that. Any sort of reasonable effort indicating that you actually care about your minis as more than just monopoly markers makes it a lot more enjoyable, in my opinion. I really can't remember the last time I saw someone make fun of a player's painting -- it really wouldn't be tolerated around here. That's just bullying.

 Peregrine wrote:

Or I can just refuse to play against you and tell you to paint your army. Hopefully enough other people will do the same, and you will have a choice of either painting your army or never playing.

THIS is why I had you on ignore for so long. Thanks for reminding me of what kind of person you are. Back on ignore.

It's a quite interesting clash of personalities going on here. I'd be grateful, if you would all fill this test and post results here, especially, Peregrine:
http://cognitivequiz.com/quiz.html

 Talys wrote:
- Back in 1988, the price of this hardcover was $43.95. And no FLGS discounts back then; it's actually pricier than a current codex, LOL

Not only that. After correcting for inflation it's $87.90. And median wages were 2x lower back then, so when it comes to cost in work, it was also like today's $87.90.

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:
It's a quite interesting clash of personalities going on here. I'd be grateful, if you would all fill this test and post results here, especially, Peregrine:
http://cognitivequiz.com/quiz.html

INTP, which matches similar tests. But the test has nothing to do with painting models or not, and has some obvious flaws in its design. So I guess there's some trivia for you, but it's kind of off-topic for this thread.

It seems one camp is really latching onto that playing 40k at least for "painted" models is optional.
I had started out as a person who put together models before tabletop and I think leaving a model unpainted unless molded in color never really occurred.

I would say BECAUSE of 40k those standards have slipped.
Tabletop war gaming started out with cardboard counters and little icon like pieces that obviously did not look like it needed painting.

So why having nice big 3d model figures are we fighting for our right to continue to play them unpainted with no intent to change that and feeling angry when people voice their opinion on that subject?

I must admit that the single best reason to paint an army is how it looks like to someone who never played: like garbage unpainted.
No ambassador for the hobby award for you!
At least something that looks good lends some respectability to uninitiated and changes attitudes when some turkeys come in the shop to make fun of "the geeks".

I am getting older, the hobbies of an old guy has to have that cool something to it or it is just plain sad.
Younger people are too AFRAID of ridicule but the secret is that "turkeys" out there can find ANYTHING to make fun of, so you might as well not make it easy for them and do your best rather than not try at all.