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As regards Kirby, it is possible that he was a good general manager of a large private company, and is a bad CEO of a small public company. However leaving that to one side, the extraordinary thing about GW is that over the decades they have changed themselves from a company that designs and publishes a wide range of wargames, board games and RPGs, to a company that sells WHFB and 40K stuff.

They seemingly managed to wreck WHFB's popularity with 8th edition, and the End Times and Age of Sigmar are a try at rebooting the franchise. It's going to be a lot cheaper to play, because the rules will be free and everyone already has loads of figures or can buy them from rival companies (Mantic).

This could work for a lot of people.

If it doesn't, then GW will become the company that sells 40K stuff. When you think of all their capabilities to do so much more than that, it would be a sad end if it came about.

Wont be the last nail. Fantasy wasn't quite as important as 40k, so even if this thing tanks, it's not enough to be a real death-blow. Worst case it'll just mean the total end of fantasy or anything other than 40k, so a slightly beaten but still twitching GW will be churning out more space marines for a couple more years before they drive 40k into the ground as well.

 Orock wrote:
I'm sure someone like Hasbro would snatch them up if they went under.
.

no they wouldn't. Haesbro has stopped making it's own mini games. they've MASSIVLY scaled down D&D because apparently the world's most popular RPG isnt a high eneugh profit margin for em. they'd not be intreasted in GW at ALL.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Orock wrote:
I'm sure someone like Hasbro would snatch them up if they went under.
.

no they wouldn't. Haesbro has stopped making it's own mini games. they've MASSIVLY scaled down D&D because apparently the world's most popular RPG isnt a high eneugh profit margin for em. they'd not be intreasted in GW at ALL.

That goes back to my idea that many people massively overestimate GW's IP.
They need new management because they ruined WFB completely and are close to ruining 40k as well. But I don't know who will buy them out unless they sell for a song.

I gotta say, seeing all of the races being renamed in attempt at creating more copyright- Seraphon (Lizardmen), Orruks (Orcs), Red Slayers...I now do want to see GW suffer (financially).

Everything I've seen about this release has been nothing but head scratching stupidity.

I worry for the future of 40k if they honestly believe AoS is a good enough idea to sell.

The models aren't bad, but feth me those rules are...well, calling them rules is a stretch.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
As regards Kirby, it is possible that he was a good general manager of a large private company, and is a bad CEO of a small public company. However leaving that to one side, the extraordinary thing about GW is that over the decades they have changed themselves from a company that designs and publishes a wide range of wargames, board games and RPGs, to a company that sells WHFB and 40K stuff.

They seemingly managed to wreck WHFB's popularity with 8th edition, and the End Times and Age of Sigmar are a try at rebooting the franchise. It's going to be a lot cheaper to play, because the rules will be free and everyone already has loads of figures or can buy them from rival companies (Mantic).

This could work for a lot of people.

If it doesn't, then GW will become the company that sells 40K stuff. When you think of all their capabilities to do so much more than that, it would be a sad end if it came about.

This right here is why I just don't understand their totally lacklustre handling of the Hobbit license. Sure, the films were nowhere near the phenomenon of the original movies (though my kid D'n'D group all reference the Hobbit movies when any tropes related to Middle Earth come up, so I guess it made an impact on them), but it baffles me that they seem to have essentially strangled and discarded the line before the third movie was even out.

 Da Boss wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
As regards Kirby, it is possible that he was a good general manager of a large private company, and is a bad CEO of a small public company. However leaving that to one side, the extraordinary thing about GW is that over the decades they have changed themselves from a company that designs and publishes a wide range of wargames, board games and RPGs, to a company that sells WHFB and 40K stuff.

They seemingly managed to wreck WHFB's popularity with 8th edition, and the End Times and Age of Sigmar are a try at rebooting the franchise. It's going to be a lot cheaper to play, because the rules will be free and everyone already has loads of figures or can buy them from rival companies (Mantic).

This could work for a lot of people.

If it doesn't, then GW will become the company that sells 40K stuff. When you think of all their capabilities to do so much more than that, it would be a sad end if it came about.

This right here is why I just don't understand their totally lacklustre handling of the Hobbit license. Sure, the films were nowhere near the phenomenon of the original movies (though my kid D'n'D group all reference the Hobbit movies when any tropes related to Middle Earth come up, so I guess it made an impact on them), but it baffles me that they seem to have essentially strangled and discarded the line before the third movie was even out.

I could be wrong, but it seemed to me that LoTR was something of a flash in the pan. I think it drew in a lot of people that liked LoTR, not really miniatures games. The Hobbit movies were successful, but there wasn't the massive hype for it like LoTR.

 MWHistorian wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Orock wrote:
I'm sure someone like Hasbro would snatch them up if they went under.
.

no they wouldn't. Haesbro has stopped making it's own mini games. they've MASSIVLY scaled down D&D because apparently the world's most popular RPG isnt a high eneugh profit margin for em. they'd not be intreasted in GW at ALL.

That goes back to my idea that many people massively overestimate GW's IP.
They need new management because they ruined WFB completely and are close to ruining 40k as well. But I don't know who will buy them out unless they sell for a song.

and even if we accept that the IP is reasonably valueable, it doesn't stand to reason that the game itself would be viewed as valueable. sure if GW went under some awesome company could take over and produce 40k exactly as we hoped etc. but honestly most likely? it'd be bought out by a company with differnt plans for the IP. Honestly GW's in a bad spot from a buy out prespective, it's proably too valueable for a gaming company to buy out (I tend to belive that the best result for a buy out would be FFG) but any bigger company that buys it out is proably not gonna be intreasted in continueing the warhammer tabletop games.


That said I think the most likely "death" of GW would be it ceasing production of product and becoming a holding company dedicated to lisencing out it's property

BrianDavion wrote:
no they wouldn't. Haesbro has stopped making it's own mini games. they've MASSIVLY scaled down D&D because apparently the world's most popular RPG isnt a high eneugh profit margin for em. they'd not be intreasted in GW at ALL.

There's an important difference here: they've abandoned their own miniatures games, but those games never had much popularity and faced huge barriers to entry in the miniatures market. So why keep throwing money at a plan that isn't working very well? Buying GW would be a completely different situation, since they'd instantly be the dominant company in the market and have near-guaranteed profit as long as they can avoid making GW's mistakes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
and even if we accept that the IP is reasonably valueable, it doesn't stand to reason that the game itself would be viewed as valueable.

Of course the game isn't valuable. It's a terrible game, and the first thing any sensible company would do if they bought the IP would be to delete the whole rulebook and start over again from scratch. But that's exactly what would be best for the community. Nothing about the current rules is worth keeping, and even if a new game in the 40k universe isn't perfect it would be hard to imagine getting one that is worse than what we have right now.

 Accolade wrote:
I gotta say, seeing all of the races being renamed in attempt at creating more copyright- Seraphon (Lizardmen), Orruks (Orcs), Red Slayers...I now do want to see GW suffer (financially).

why be so vindictive???
why not just enjoy the previous 30+ years of product, and be happy that you will not have to give them any money for a product you don't like???
The Old World still exists in every book and mini you have purchased over the years...
it's not like your old books and models blew up along with The Old World...

as long as GW continue to release nice models, i will continue to support them, regardless of what kind of craziness the beancounters try to pull...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
I gotta say, seeing all of the races being renamed in attempt at creating more copyright- Seraphon (Lizardmen), Orruks (Orcs), Red Slayers...I now do want to see GW suffer (financially).

why be so vindictive???
why not just enjoy the previous 30+ years of product, and be happy that you will not have to give them any money for a product you don't like???
The Old World still exists in every book and mini you have purchased over the years...
it's not like your old books and models blew up along with The Old World...

as long as GW continue to release nice models, i will continue to support them, regardless of what kind of craziness the beancounters try to pull...

cheers
jah

There is no reason, NO REASON, they are changing the names of the factions other than to pretend that they (GW) invented all of these concepts. All of these generic concepts they took from Tolkien, other fantasy sources, are being renamed so GW can stand by what they said in court- that all of their designers come up with their ideas off the top of their heads. It wouldn't be such a big deal if they were just honest about it, but they've gone so far as to come up with stupid-ass mispellings to try to differentiate themselves.

I'm glad you don't care that GW has butchered everything that made WHFB the game it was, in the pursuit of...? I don't even know, they're not even fething accomplishing anything by doing this! But if you don't care that they're sacrificing the universe of the game for some imaginary copyright concepts, that's great. But I think it's incredibly lousy and callous, so I wouldn't mind seeing them suffer the consequences of killing a game 30 years old JUST to play make-believe.

Their treatment of Middle-earth is kind of exactly what I would expect, as it is exactly the kind of Treatment that Peter Jackson gave to Middle-earth:

Dismissive and thinking that their modifications to Middle-earth, and ignoring the actual creator of Middle-earth is going to help them.

And that attitude spills over into their other games.

They simply do not know how to properly manage an IP meant for gaming, because they do not pay attention to their customers.

They think that miniatures gaming is something like selling Apple Computers (because they seem to have a Steve Jobs' attitude that they know better than their customers).

For making a computer, that might make sense, where only a small population of developers is going to have specific needs or desires, and the general population is largely ignorant of the specifics of a computer.

But gamers are not a "Naive Audience/Consumer base," as is the market for Home Computers. Gamers tend to know very much what they want.

Yet GW keeps telling these people that their desires don't matter, and they will take what GW gives them.

MB

Why be so vindictive?

Imagine we've been friends for years, then I sleep with your girlfriend, kick your dog and punch you in the face.

Still want to be friends?

That's essentially the same process of emotion, albeit a little less personal.

@Accolade: i am just not the invested in something that is make-believe in the first place, that the name changes are going to upset me...
like i said, i can still enjoy the old fiction...
it's not like i am going to pick up an old Gotrek and Felix novel and think, "i can't read this!!! that world blew up!!!"

@Azreal13: yet, GW's products did none of those things...

i am obviously not as emotionally invested as some people, despite eating, sleeping, and breathing the miniatures, fiction, and art for 31 years...
i will still enjoy all my books and models just as much as i ever did...

cheers
jah

Don't be so bloody literal, you could see the point I was making, but I guess that's the price you pay for painting for other people, you never get to emotionally invest in the things you create.

why would i get emotionally invested in fiction in the first place???
i mean, i don't get why people get so upset about the Star Wars prequals either...
my memories of the original movies are still just the same as they were on the first day i saw them...
plus, i got to see Pod Racing, massive Clone Trooper battles, loads of Jedi in action, beautiful CG worlds and ships, and Yoda in all his glory as fighter...
now i have twice as many films to enjoy...

i put a lot of thought and research into everything i paint...
that is why it all looks "right" in the end...
i am very invested by what i paint, as it is a physical object...
if i drop it after all that hard work, i will be gutted...
then i will dust myself off, fix what's broken, and show off a beautiful creation...
if someone changes my guy's name, i will not be bothered at all...

i live a very Zen life...

cheers
jah

People get emotionally invested in fiction all the time.

You are an outlier in this if you don't. You can call it zen, I've always felt it was more "detached."

call it whatever you like, Az...
it doesn't bother me...
i am just sharing my perspective on the topic at hand...

someone deciding to change the name of their creation is not going to get me all worked up...
if i like the change, i will continue to buy...
if i don't, i won't...
that does not invalidate the enjoyment i can get from my previous 30 years of purchases...
it also doesn't make me wish to see a company fail, and put the creators of the art, minis, and fiction that i enjoy out of work...
i want more new itterations of models like the latest Khorne Warriors coming out in AoS, so i have more cool minis to paint...

cheers
jah

 Azreal13 wrote:
Why be so vindictive?

Imagine we've been friends for years, then I sleep with your girlfriend, kick your dog and punch you in the face.

Still want to be friends?

That's essentially the same process of emotion, albeit a little less personal.

I think that's a terrible comparison.

Imagine that you've been married for 20 hears, you have kids, a home, and a dog. You've had some awesome years, and some not so great years, but recently you've grown
to be so different that you're going to part ways.

Do you part as friends or do you hate her and hold a grudge for the rest of your days?

Or you could really use your imagination... picture this.... you play a game for a decade or two, something you like better comes along or whatever you're playing has changed course. Do you play something else, or do you stay angry?

Coz y'know, it's just a game. Little less serious than a marriage, or a friend that sleeps with the missus or kicks your dog!

I'd just like to see the crew that was in charge in and around 99-2000 back in charge.

 jah-joshua wrote:
call it whatever you like, Az...
it doesn't bother me...
i am just sharing my perspective on the topic at hand...

someone deciding to change the name of their creation is not going to get me all worked up...
if i like the change, i will continue to buy...
if i don't, i won't...
that does not invalidate the enjoyment i can get from my previous 30 years of purchases...
it also doesn't make me wish to see a company fail, and put the creators of the art, minis, and fiction that i enjoy out of work...
i want more new itterations of models like the latest Khorne Warriors coming out in AoS, so i have more cool minis to paint...

cheers
jah

Maybe change to something you understand? The company you use brushes from for the last 20 years changes their best sable hair brushes to nylon and increases their prices?
The paint you were always glowing about change their acrylic top of the line paint to finger paint and says , it is just as good!

It is when Metallica's cliff Burton died and the next album was some kind narcissistic self gratifying concept album, I didn't go "i respect their artistic interpretation of metal it doesn't affect me" i went "What the F is this Shait!" and stop buying it.
St. Anger was the first album i bought from them that I felt was more like their earlier stuff. (this is an example!)

 n0t_u wrote:
It's not the final nail yet. They need to shove fantasy into 40k with Sigmar as a lost primarch first.

Noooo, don't give them ideas

Nope. I think AoS looks fun.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
call it whatever you like, Az...
it doesn't bother me...
i am just sharing my perspective on the topic at hand...

someone deciding to change the name of their creation is not going to get me all worked up...
if i like the change, i will continue to buy...
if i don't, i won't...
that does not invalidate the enjoyment i can get from my previous 30 years of purchases...
it also doesn't make me wish to see a company fail, and put the creators of the art, minis, and fiction that i enjoy out of work...
i want more new itterations of models like the latest Khorne Warriors coming out in AoS, so i have more cool minis to paint...

cheers
jah

Maybe change to something you understand? The company you use brushes from for the last 20 years changes their best sable hair brushes to nylon and increases their prices?
The paint you were always glowing about change their acrylic top of the line paint to finger paint and says , it is just as good!

It is when Metallica's cliff Burton died and the next album was some kind narcissistic self gratifying concept album, I didn't go "i respect their artistic interpretation of metal it doesn't affect me" i went "What the F is this Shait!" and stop buying it.
St. Anger was the first album i bought from them that I felt was more like their earlier stuff. (this is an example!)

exactly...
you were not happy with something, and stopped buying it...
totally understandable...
my point was, that i don't have the same extreme emotional attatchment to a fictional world that is driving some people up the wall with these changes to Fantasy...
keep in mind, i was talking about the fiction, not the rules...
that is a whole other kettle of fish which i will not touch with a ten-foot pole...

i don't have a big problem with change, and regardless of what some people may think, my loyalty to a product is dependent on it being something i want, not just blind acceptance...
for example, i started with acrylic mini paints when the little glass Partha bottles were the main ones around, then Citadel released their paints, and i switched...
later, after painting a few years worth of minis for the PP studio using Citadel paints (ironic, huh???), PP paints were born and i switched again...
if someone can make a paint i like better than PP, i will be happy to switch again...
change can be good...

my point is, per your example, Ride the Lightning was an awesome album...
i don't really care for Metal, and even i like that album...
what i'm saying is that Master of Puppets' existence should not take away your ability to enjoy Ride the Lightning any less than you did before MoP was released...
you feel me???

it's personal choice...
walking away is one thing, but wishing for a company to fail because someone is not happy with a product's change of direction just seems way too reactionary to me...
if that is someone's reaction, that is their choice...
i have never told anyone that they are wrong, blind, oblivious, stupid, a moron, a sucker, or any of the other labels thrown at people on here who have said that they are happy with their GW products...
i don't believe i've ever called any of those people throwing stones Haters, either...
i simply present my differing opinion...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
why would i get emotionally invested in fiction in the first place???
i mean, i don't get why people get so upset about the Star Wars prequals either...
my memories of the original movies are still just the same as they were on the first day i saw them...
plus, i got to see Pod Racing, massive Clone Trooper battles, loads of Jedi in action, beautiful CG worlds and ships, and Yoda in all his glory as fighter...
now i have twice as many films to enjoy...

i put a lot of thought and research into everything i paint...
that is why it all looks "right" in the end...
i am very invested by what i paint, as it is a physical object...
if i drop it after all that hard work, i will be gutted...
then i will dust myself off, fix what's broken, and show off a beautiful creation...
if someone changes my guy's name, i will not be bothered at all...

i live a very Zen life...

cheers
jah

I gave my posts a little thought while I was out to perhaps better clarify my reasoning on this.

I think what my issue comes down to is the inherent deceitful nature of the changes. I don't really care about the world exploding, Sigmarines, lore alterations, etc. Those things I look at incredulously, but not really in judgment- it's GW's choice to decide how to mix up the game, and people will choose to play it or not play it.

But the renaming of all of these races just stinks of a huge lie. They're lying that they created these concepts. Like Mark Wells said in the CHS court case, the designers come up with their concepts "with no outside inspiration." He stands there and lies through his teeth over this.

And if making up insane claims wasn't enough, they have to now spread the lies across their game. They can't just embrace that they took concepts from other places, they instead rename them, litter then with trademarks and shout "look at this amazing new GW concept! We are the innovators of the industry!"

This is why I have genuine distaste towards this. It's the same as watching anyone else lie, steal or cheat. They had a concept going for 30 years, and now they're going to pretend it's something else so, at the next board meeting, they can come up with new ways to shut down other groups for getting anywhere near their precious stolen goods.

 Talys wrote:

Imagine that you've been married for 20 hears, you have kids, a home, and a dog. You've had some awesome years, and some not so great years, but recently you've grown
to be so different that you're going to part ways.

Do you part as friends or do you hate her and hold a grudge for the rest of your days?

After she dragged all my stuff out into the yard and set fire to it, had the kids' names changed so that she could trademark them, and announced that she's leaving because, while she certainly could put in the effort required to fix our marriage, it's much more fun to just hang around with an ever-changing procession of college students?

Yeah, I might hold something of a grudge.

 jah-joshua wrote:

Spoiler:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
call it whatever you like, Az...
it doesn't bother me...
i am just sharing my perspective on the topic at hand...

someone deciding to change the name of their creation is not going to get me all worked up...
if i like the change, i will continue to buy...
if i don't, i won't...
that does not invalidate the enjoyment i can get from my previous 30 years of purchases...
it also doesn't make me wish to see a company fail, and put the creators of the art, minis, and fiction that i enjoy out of work...
i want more new itterations of models like the latest Khorne Warriors coming out in AoS, so i have more cool minis to paint...

cheers
jah

Maybe change to something you understand? The company you use brushes from for the last 20 years changes their best sable hair brushes to nylon and increases their prices?
The paint you were always glowing about change their acrylic top of the line paint to finger paint and says , it is just as good!

It is when Metallica's cliff Burton died and the next album was some kind narcissistic self gratifying concept album, I didn't go "i respect their artistic interpretation of metal it doesn't affect me" i went "What the F is this Shait!" and stop buying it.
St. Anger was the first album i bought from them that I felt was more like their earlier stuff. (this is an example!)

exactly...
you were not happy with something, and stopped buying it...
totally understandable...
my point was, that i don't have the same extreme emotional attatchment to a fictional world that is driving some people up the wall with these changes to Fantasy...
keep in mind, i was talking about the fiction, not the rules...
that is a whole other kettle of fish which i will not touch with a ten-foot pole...

i don't have a big problem with change, and regardless of what some people may think, my loyalty to a product is dependent on it being something i want, not just blind acceptance...
for example, i started with acrylic mini paints when the little glass Partha bottles were the main ones around, then Citadel released their paints, and i switched...
later, after painting a few years worth of minis for the PP studio using Citadel paints (ironic, huh???), PP paints were born and i switched again...
if someone can make a paint i like better than PP, i will be happy to switch again...
change can be good...

my point is, per your example, Ride the Lightning was an awesome album...
i don't really care for Metal, and even i like that album...
what i'm saying is that Master of Puppets' existence should not take away your ability to enjoy Ride the Lightning any less than you did before MoP was released...
you feel me???

it's personal choice...
walking away is one thing, but wishing for a company to fail because someone is not happy with a product's change of direction just seems way too reactionary to me...
if that is someone's reaction, that is their choice...
i have never told anyone that they are wrong, blind, oblivious, stupid, a moron, a sucker, or any of the other labels thrown at people on here who have said that they are happy with their GW products...
i don't believe i've ever called any of those people throwing stones Haters, either...
i simply present my differing opinion...

cheers
jah

I get what you are saying but you kinda missed my point, Most people get emotionally attached to things they like, sometimes too much, but it is because they like the music, setting, world, rules, community that people react so emotionally when the Artist/company changes or totally go a different way then what the fans want or perceive as right. Seeing Fanboys going at each other is like seeing religious fanatics going at each other, "Protestant is the only way, we Catholics are the only way, The book of Mormon is the true word!"

I am looking forward to people reactions when 40K universe implodes and we get the Age of the Emperor!

insaniak wrote:After she dragged all my stuff out into the yard and set fire to it, had the kids' names changed so that she could trademark them, and announced that she's leaving because, while she certainly could put in the effort required to fix our marriage, it's much more fun to just hang around with an ever-changing procession of college students?

Yeah, I might hold something of a grudge.

Wow, GW set fire to all your stuff... those minis and rulebooks musta been like one of those Mission Impossible messages -- self destructing when you've read it

I've actually divorced once. The order of magnitude compared to quitting a game is so colossally different, lol. I kind of wish I hadn't posted the first part, to be honest, because losing a game is not really comparable to any of the things there, from having a pet hurt or a buddy sleeping with your miss, or whatever. I guess as much time as I spend on minis and 40k, in the end, I could live without it (or replace it with something else I really enjoy) a lot easier than I could without a lot of other things.

Oh well, I guess we all deal with such things differently

Jehan-reznor wrote:I am looking forward to people reactions when 40K universe implodes and we get the Age of the Emperor!

Then all the races would be reborn, and the new models would have big shoulder pads, a six-pack, and ginormous weapons! Except Space Marines, who will have EVEN BIGGER pauldrons!

 Talys wrote:


Wow, GW set fire to all your stuff... those minis and rulebooks musta been like one of those Mission Impossible messages -- self destructing when you've read it

You've heard of metaphors, right?

The stuff they set fire to, in this case, is a game setting that people are quite find of. Yes, they still have their existing books... But the setting is now officially dead and buried, and won't be developed any further in any recognisable way.