What is the worst codex if you play a pure list ?

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**Rune Stonegrinder**

I voted other, SOB and CSM are my tied choices as utter poop to play.

**Ghazkuul**

Lord Yayula wrote:
Ghazkuul wrote:
Frozocrone wrote:
I dunno, people thought my list was good. Link is in the description!

Would probs go IG myself.

Tailoring against a list isn't really that hard and any codex can do it. Also "have the 2 heavy weapon options I take blow up the trukks" I guess you are assuming any army 2 heavy weapon and not orks since they need a lot more to do so. So lets think of things in the CSM (Not because they are the worst codex but because I know the codex well enough to tell you stats and options) To take out long range stuff you either got your oblies, havocs or maybe a forge fiend.

A 3 Oblie unit costs 237 points, the only "long" range weapons they have are lascannons and plasma cannons, assuming they use the lascannon since it is easier to hit with it and no chance to overheat. 3 Lascannons with BS4 would do 2 hits, 1.666 of those 2 would be penetrating hits, out of that 0.555 hits will result on an exploded result and 0.2777 on an immobilize, with 3 oblies that doesn't even statistically takes out a trukk and that is commiting one of the best units on the codex which costs 80 more points that a trukk filled with bustas.

Even if the trukk does explodes statistically it does 1.4583 effective wounds on your bustas so you will usually lose one and half of the time 2 bustas, that is hardly 60% of your unit unless you were fielding 5 bustas instead of 10 on the trukk.

Havocs with autocannons were the fuzz back in the day, but with all the ignores cover, AP3 or million of AP- wounding stuff going around nowadays I see less of them in the table, however... a unit with 4 autocannons, which is probably the best loadout would shoot 8 times, hit 5.333, score 2.666 penetratings which would wreck it for sure once you add the glancing hits without harming any busta inside, out of those 2.66 penetratings 0.4444 would be an explosion which means it will rarely happen. If the trukks get any kind of cover they should survive the shots even from the havocs.

So as long as you bring more than one trukk which is pretty much the same for any transport you can't take all of them down before they deliver their cargo, unless you are playing tau, necrons or eldar which treat the orks just the same as any other army and shoot them to shreds with the same ease

3 lascannons with BS4 = 2 Hits, they need 1s to Glance and 2s to pen (S9 vs Av10) So they automatically inflict 2 HPs out of 3. statistically you have a better chance of getting 2 penetrating hits and almost no chance of Ramshackle doing anything because it is a 1/6 chance to negate. So again, statistically 2 penetrating hits. Since its AP2 and trukkz are open topped you have a 1/3 chance per pen to explode the trukk. And that's one of the most expensive units in the game for 3 Lascannons. Hell a Laspred is cheaper.

Against Tau, Eldar, SM and IG Trukkz tend to disappear rather quickly.

Also as a Side note, I dont think orks are weakest.

**Tactical_Spam**

Grimskul wrote:
MrFlutterPie wrote:
I would agree that Militarum Tempestus is the worst.

Yet that doesn't stop me from wanting to build a small 500pts add on converted up as Colonial Marines.

They definitely fit the Kill-Team aspect of 40K more than large scale games.

From a kill team perspective, these are your bread and butter

**krodarklorr**

Necrons are in a tough spot right now.

/sarcasm

CSM fo real, doh.

**Ghazkuul**

also if a trukk explodes thats however many auto S4 hits. orks are T4 meaning 50/50 wounds and with 6+ armor they die so in a unit of 10 Ork boyz or tank bustas, 5 will be wounded and 4 or 5 will die, force a leadership check, and if they fail they have a 50/50 to run away or to do another D6 S4 wounds to themselves which would average to another 1-3 dead orks, effectively destroying the unit entirely.

**vipoid**

krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are in a tough spot right now.

/sarcasm

Well, the design team apparently said to themselves 'how can we make Necrons even less fun to play against?'

So, it depends how loosely we interpret 'worst'.

**jasper76**

CSM, generally, followed by Tyranids.

The Tyranid book is just bad...one might argue that at least you can take 3-20 Flyrants, but that means you'd need to buy 3-20 Flyrant models, which qualifies as bad to me.

**DoomShakaLaka**

jasper76 wrote:
CSM, generally, followed by Tyranids.

The Tyranid book is just bad...one might argue that at least you can take 3-20 Flyrants, but that means you'd need to buy 3-20 Flyrant models, which qualifies as bad to me.

What kind of nutso apocalypse game are you playing in with 20 flyrants!!

**Selym**

Lobukia wrote:
CSM /thread

That's my vote too. Moving to IG felt like an upgrade, and they're still bad.

**krodarklorr**

vipoid wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
Necrons are in a tough spot right now.

/sarcasm

Well, the design team apparently said to themselves 'how can we make Necrons even less fun to play against?'

So, it depends how loosely we interpret 'worst'.

Touche' sir, lol.

**jasper76**

DoomShakaLaka wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
CSM, generally, followed by Tyranids.

The Tyranid book is just bad...one might argue that at least you can take 3-20 Flyrants, but that means you'd need to buy 3-20 Flyrant models, which qualifies as bad to me.

What kind of nutso apocalypse game are you playing in with 20 flyrants!!

Admittedly an exaggeration. I ended on o buying 2 of them, I could never get myself to buy a 3rd.

**Baldeagle91**

I don't really think the guard dex is bottom tier... it's outdated sure, but you can have good games, and I still dominate my mates when we play objectives.

Personally I think it has to be Militarum Tempestus followed by nids.....

CSM I would not know, never played against them enough (well by a player who knows 40k properly, he's just beginning).

**Slayer-Fan123**

Baldeagle91 wrote:
I don't really think the guard dex is bottom tier... it's outdated sure, but you can have good games, and I still dominate my mates when we play objectives.

Personally I think it has to be Militarum Tempestus followed by nids.....

CSM I would not know, never played against them enough (well by a player who knows 40k properly, he's just beginning).

Once he gets better, you'll end up regretting your vote for Scions.

**Baldeagle91**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Baldeagle91 wrote:
I don't really think the guard dex is bottom tier... it's outdated sure, but you can have good games, and I still dominate my mates when we play objectives.

Personally I think it has to be Militarum Tempestus followed by nids.....

CSM I would not know, never played against them enough (well by a player who knows 40k properly, he's just beginning).

Once he gets better, you'll end up regretting your vote for Scions.

Meh his helldrakes always cause issues, but I usually just ignore them. I haven't really faced anything that seems broken... but then again he's normally supported by my mates chaos demons who are like troll machines.... though I do kill plenty.

**Spetulhu**

Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
I voted other, SOB and CSM are my tied choices as utter poop to play.

SoB can put a lot of hurt on stuff when done right. I've yet to lose to the mate's Tau for example - he just can't kill enough PA bodies to prevent his scoring troops from being wiped out.

CSM on the other hand could use some love. My mate's CSM never do well unless he takes stuff that isn't Chaos Marines.

**Ashiraya**

Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.

**Oberron**

Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.

And then get blown away by everything since they are t3 with no natural EW aside from a single relic and the ignore cover melta spam like you said is a one trick pony but is even worse then that because it happens only once which has a chance to fail not to mention if you try to outflank with the dom squads they might just not come in (happened to me several times). But even with bummrushing across the table they only have av 11 vehicles (granted are slightly better then their non SOB counterparts because of 6+ invul and +1 to DTW).

viable? yes. reliable? no.

**gwarsh41**

Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.

I always figured it was because some people really just want an all woman force. I am sure there are some who like the fluff, but I doubt there are any who think the tabletop representation is fun.

**Ashiraya**

Oberron wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.

And then get blown away by everything since they are t3 with no natural EW aside from a single relic and the ignore cover melta spam like you said is a one trick pony but is even worse then that because it happens only once which has a chance to fail not to mention if you try to outflank with the dom squads they might just not come in (happened to me several times). But even with bummrushing across the table they only have av 11 vehicles (granted are slightly better then their non SOB counterparts because of 6+ invul and +1 to DTW).

viable? yes. reliable? no.

They're by no means a high tier army, but it is equally wrong to say that they are the worst.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Ashiraya wrote:
Oberron wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.

And then get blown away by everything since they are t3 with no natural EW aside from a single relic and the ignore cover melta spam like you said is a one trick pony but is even worse then that because it happens only once which has a chance to fail not to mention if you try to outflank with the dom squads they might just not come in (happened to me several times). But even with bummrushing across the table they only have av 11 vehicles (granted are slightly better then their non SOB counterparts because of 6+ invul and +1 to DTW).

viable? yes. reliable? no.

They're by no means a high tier army, but it is equally wrong to say that they are the worst.

They're bad in the same way Tyranids are. You just spam a few units and hope for the best.

**Ghazkuul**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Oberron wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.

And then get blown away by everything since they are t3 with no natural EW aside from a single relic and the ignore cover melta spam like you said is a one trick pony but is even worse then that because it happens only once which has a chance to fail not to mention if you try to outflank with the dom squads they might just not come in (happened to me several times). But even with bummrushing across the table they only have av 11 vehicles (granted are slightly better then their non SOB counterparts because of 6+ invul and +1 to DTW).

viable? yes. reliable? no.

They're by no means a high tier army, but it is equally wrong to say that they are the worst.

They're bad in the same way Tyranids are. You just spam a few units and hope for the best.

I would never count out Sisters, especially if your a horde army player you HATE sisters. If you love your AV10-13 vehicles you hate Sisters to, 2 exorcists in the back with some bubble wrap will FETH up your day.

**Billagio**

Ive been out of it for a while. Why are CSM so bad now? I last remember them being half decent with flying DPs and all the psychic shenanigans they can do.

**Oberron**

Ashiraya wrote:
Oberron wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, I don't get why people say SoB. They are very rare and extremely punishing to collect, paint and build, but once the game begins they are very solid as an army. One-trick pony, yes, but ignores cover melta bumrushing is very viable.

And then get blown away by everything since they are t3 with no natural EW aside from a single relic and the ignore cover melta spam like you said is a one trick pony but is even worse then that because it happens only once which has a chance to fail not to mention if you try to outflank with the dom squads they might just not come in (happened to me several times). But even with bummrushing across the table they only have av 11 vehicles (granted are slightly better then their non SOB counterparts because of 6+ invul and +1 to DTW).

viable? yes. reliable? no.

They're by no means a high tier army, but it is equally wrong to say that they are the worst.

Wasn't saying they are the worst but they have a lot more down sides then upsides, but that is mostly because of a highly outdated codex and changing of the times. They have decent tactics and tricks like exo spam and melta bumrushing but not a lot of substance. I see sisters could be made into a glass hammer/gamble army.

**FireSkullz2**

Sisters or CSM

**Arkaine**

CSM, sadly. Everything is expensive and doesn't really synergize well. We've had the same seven guns since the beginning.

**deviantduck**

CSM is definitely the worst of the 'core' codecies.

I'm assuming the people who think SoB are the worst rarely play against them.

**Experiment 626**

deviantduck wrote:
CSM is definitely the worst of the 'core' codecies.

I'm assuming the people who think SoB are the worst rarely play against them.

The only thing that's actively making Sisters 'worse' in a general sense than Chaos Marines is their sheer monetary cost, combined with the inability to get your hands on most of the models through GW themselves.

On the table though, Sisters laugh at any pure CSM list.

**Unit1126PLL**

I don't know why people think Sisters are good. I play as them, and my friend who runs the Airborne Assault formation MT mono-codex list crushes me.

And MT have some votes here for worst codex!

**Slayer-Fan123**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
I don't know why people think Sisters are good. I play as them, and my friend who runs the Airborne Assault formation MT mono-codex list crushes me.

And MT have some votes here for worst codex!

They both do the Special weapon spam in different ways. I'd put my vote for MT being stronger though because they naturally have aircraft and Deep Strike (with Teleport Homers on their Tauroxs to boot).

**Selym**

8 votes for Eldar. Not sure if joking...