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There are more renders on the campaign page. Especially the Shaltari bc looks way better on this one.

Now, I can see that killing a Scourge cruiser with one shot.

Hehe, already on that one

Ugh, having such a hard time picking what I want in my pledge. I'm torn between UCM and PHR. Two friends are going PHR so that pushes me towards UCM. Girlfriend likes Shaltari so I may go 1x ucm and 1x shaltari for the two faction picks in the commodore pledge so I'll have 2 ucm and 1 for her. Probably trade all the scourge stuff off, not a fan of their aesthetic personally. Glad they decided to add another UCM battlecruiser like some of us have been asking

Its broken £400k now, £95k to go before the Frigate explosion

Really like the look of the Adamant, first Shaltari ship I really like. Odd though, PHR are my DzC faction and been very happy with how their ships look... Apart from the new battle cruiser. Making it difficult to decide which battlecruisers to pick.

The T shirt bolt on.

For those of us who are less familiar with Hawk, what kind of deal is this KS compared to retail? Not sure whether to wait for online discounters for this. Advice?

I can't resist this any longer. I'm going to have to back Commodore. Those UCM and PHR ships are jaw dropping, humanity FTW!

 Fugazi wrote:
For those of us who are less familiar with Hawk, what kind of deal is this KS compared to retail? Not sure whether to wait for online discounters for this. Advice?

Depending on how patient you are, you'll certainly be able to find a better deal on the starters via online retailers. However, once the funding level hits $500k, the freebies piled onto most pledge levels will tip the balance into "better than retail" more or less, depending on how you feel about paying a year in advance.

Captain seems like a good deal, each starter will probably be 55 pounds or dollars retail similar to the current setup. The 2 player starter is basically two of those, and you get two starters.

As above, the extras on top of that are a plus.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
you'll certainly be able to find a better deal on the starters via online retailers.

That's debatable. The KS boxed set is already discounted, I would estimate at around 10-15%, and also gets you 1x cruiser sprue for each race and probably the same for frigates by the end of the KS. You may well be able to find the starter box cheaper on retail, although not that much cheaper, but the KS will certainly be a better deal due to the extras.

As a high level backer, assuming >£500k funding which will definitely happen, you'll get almost another starter worth of models (two frigate sprues and one cruiser sprue, as opposed to a starter which has three cruiser sprues and one frigate sprue) free for each race, PLUS one battle cruiser for each race AND a civilian cruiser. On top of that, the base pledge without any of the freebies is already discounted. If you pledge Commodore and want all four races, you'll have 4 Cruisers, 1 Battlecruiser and 12 Frigates for each of the four races. For £150. The value is pretty crazy!

Generally speaking, Hawk Wargames don't discount much at retail, by the time you take shipping into account from most online stores, you're usually talking no better than a 10% discount.

I think the timespan for the toys actually arriving is more like a few months than a year though.

I just freed an Admiral pledge if you're interested.

It depends where in the world you are,

In the UK it's certainly going to be better than retail (and probably most sale prices too)

In the US with their heavier discounting (and much better and more frequent sales) I'd say Bob is right and it really only becomes a no brainer once the extra sprues get added...

but going retail and waiting for heavy discounting will probably add another 9-12 months to the alreadly long waiting time for the KS,

and who knows maybe GW will have released epic battlefleet necromunda and nobody will want to play the 'old' dropfllet commander game by then, if you and/or your group want to play now the KS is the fastest way to get the game and that counts for a fair bit too

Bob does raise an interesting point though; as most people who have backed a project before know, initial KS delivery estimates are often turned into total lies with scope creep and additional goodies added and that I don't think KS let's you adjust those once the campaign is live. Campaigns with massive explosions of funding often end up delayed by years as a result. Some companies, and I'd tentatively include Hawk in this so far, seem to have their ducks in a row more than most to accommodate such things but that is a question worth asking I suppose. Does Hawk still think they will be delivering to (some) backers by Q2 2016, or should we go ahead and shift it to Q4 already?

I mean, mentally that's probably the best approach anyway, but I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised if they already had everything slotted with their UK factory anyway and just wanted the capital.

Some stuff (like the space stations) are clearly being pushed ahead in development thanks to the 'lots of funding' but as long as they are not trying to shoehorn in more plastic (the extra stuff all seems to be resin) they should, in theory, still be able to hit their target,

but I'd still doubt they'll actually have everything done and dusted on time, but I'd guess 3-6 months late rather than any longer

They have added quite a bit to the campaign. Initially they were adamant they would do the starter spruces and nothing else. Now they're doing the launch sprue, battle cruisers, space stations etc as well.

 Krinsath wrote:
Bob does raise an interesting point though; as most people who have backed a project before know, initial KS delivery estimates are often turned into total lies with scope creep and additional goodies added and that I don't think KS let's you adjust those once the campaign is live. Campaigns with massive explosions of funding often end up delayed by years as a result. Some companies, and I'd tentatively include Hawk in this so far, seem to have their ducks in a row more than most to accommodate such things but that is a question worth asking I suppose. Does Hawk still think they will be delivering to (some) backers by Q2 2016, or should we go ahead and shift it to Q4 already?

I mean, mentally that's probably the best approach anyway, but I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised if they already had everything slotted with their UK factory anyway and just wanted the capital.

As the renders for the core stuff are already complete it would just be a case of getting them physically made, I don't anticipate much in the way of delays. We are around 6 months out from release anyway.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
As the renders for the core stuff are already complete it would just be a case of getting them physically made, I don't anticipate much in the way of delays. We are around 6 months out from release anyway.

The time from render to plastic model can be substantial though; in some cases it can be six months just to get all the tools cut. That doesn't include getting models produced, shipped to the company and received for fulfillment which, while far less time than tool-cutting, is not "no" time either.

Caution there aside, I don't believe that "KS Doomsday prophecy" will be the case here, as Hawk is using a UK-based manufacturer rather than China. That alone cuts down on the lag in the process substantially. That we've seen physical models for 3 of 4 factions is encouraging too as that means there are likely masters of those 3 factions already done. Not spending a month or two on the water after production is also a good thing, as is the lack of a Chinese New Year stoppage; yes there's still Christmas but that's no where near as much fanfare and it's early in the process versus right in the middle. It's really just the little add-ons that have me wondering about the date, especially as I really like little gubbins and such on the table and will undoubtedly want those. Still, they are indeed little so Q3 for colonial deliveries might not be overly optimistic like it would with other projects.

The point about it being made in the UK is also a good indicator that the sets probably aren't going to be found dramatically cheaper at retail. The basic costs to make the things are a bit higher than other companies because they're not being made as cheaply as possible, but that does come with the benefits outlined above.

Oh, so it's Renedra? Ok not worried.

I would assume it's them since I'm thinking that the UK doesn't have a massive injection plastic industry in general, let alone for miniature wargaming. I could be grossly misinformed though, and they don't list the company by name; simply that they have worked with them before. I would have to defer to someone with local knowledge if there's other candidates out there that aren't as well known or if that is pretty much the option.

The parts that I base my assumptions on from is from the KS page's "Risks and Challenges" section in case anyone wants to double-check:

These points, added to the fact that we manufacture in the UK rather than sourcing from other countries or continents, means reduced turnaround times and greater reliability on quality as well as timings.

...

We have had experience in creating plastic sets before, with Dropzone Commander, and have worked with all our manufacturers before on a range of products, so are confident in our ability to deliver a high quality game in Dropfleet Commander, both in terms of product quality and, of course, gameplay value!

jSewell wrote:
Ugh, having such a hard time picking what I want in my pledge. I'm torn between UCM and PHR.

Same here, but with a minor difference. I went for the commander starter set, but I wish you could pick and choose fleets for it - at the KS level at least. I like the scourge ships, but it's UCM and PHR for me. The PHR ships look excellent to me; like mechanical, spacefaring whales. (And with that colour scheme...) I'd go lieutenant and bolt on PHR, but commander just comes with so much extra stuff that I bolted PHR onto that. So now I'm sucked into the Kickstarter thing of buying something (the scourge fleet) just to sell it on again. Bah.

 Mymearan wrote:
Oh, so it's Renedra? Ok not worried.

come to think of it, DZC sprues feel suspiciously like the sprues from the PDC plastics KS, rather than Renedra sprues. Rigidity, weight and colour all seem to match those better than Renedra's.
Not even saying it's them per se, but it would be an unusual mix for Renedra, IMO.

I know (some of) their resin stuff is cast by CMA moldform (http://www.cmamoldformltd.co.uk/) but is doesn't look like they do the HIPs casting

Not much in todays update, just some info on the upgraded rulebook:

We can also give out some more information on the deluxe rulebook upgrade. Thanks to your support we will be able to make all rulebooks deluxe, both in pledge level and bolt ons, as well as for retail later next year. The deluxe edition includes:

- Pages now printed on thicker paper stock (150gsm).
- Cover to be Matt laminated and have spot UV on raised areas.
- Increased content and background.
- And due to popular demand, we will also be providing each book in a card box which will help to keep the book protected, and also allow player to put it on their shelves in portrait (the rulebook is A4 Landscape).

You forgot :

Q&A session 3: Saturday 28th November, 5.30 – 6.30pm (GMT) – This will be run on the comments section of update #25.

Q&A session 4: Sunday 29th November, 11.30am – 12.30pm (GMT) – This will be run on the comments section of update #26.

The two different times are to make it easier for backers around the world to plan for them. Our usual Q&A guidelines will be in effect, and we’ll reiterate those at the top of each update.

Definitely want all the fleets now. What's the pledge manager situation on this one? Can we pledge minimum of £1and upgrade? Or are these kickstarter only pledges a la Mantic kickstarters.

I think to get access to the pledge manager you have to pledge for one of the pledge levels (not £1)... and have they said whether you can change pledge levels in the pledge manager or not?