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1) How do a "monster and handlers" fight? The Hellcannon's rules say it follows the same rules as a monster and handlers, but I could only find Monsters getting shot, charging and Monster mounts in the rulebook. I've seen the Dark Elves' War Hydra entry, but do all Monster and handler units fight like that?

2) When Archaon, or any hero with a daemon sword, hurt themselves with their weapon is it counted towards the combat resolution?

3) When rolling on the Eye of the Gods table, how do you handle duplicate abilities, but not duplicate "results"? For example, if a Lord rolled snake eyes and got "stupidity" and then rolled snake eyes again, he would re-roll. But Sigvald is already counted as stupid, so if he rolls snake eyes, does he reroll due to already having the Stupidity rule, or does it stand and do nothing because he hasn't yet actually rolled that result on the table?

4) Does frenzy trump Stupidity? Frenzy no longer grants "immune to psychology" anymore so they still check for stupidity, but if you fail stupidity when there's enemies in charge range, which takes effect?

Thanks in advance!

1) Monsters and Handlers move as per skirmishers, but for purposes of charge arc, use only the beasties 90 degree frontal arc. This is under the rules for Skirmishers. The Dark Elf Hydra has additional rules relating to itself.

2) Yup. A wound in combat is a wound in combat. It counts regardless of how it is caused.

3) I'd treat it as a new result. Otherwise, people who get, say +1S from a Magic Weapon could not then increase that further with a little leg up from their patron.

4) Nope. You test for stupidity, then check for Frenzy.

How does the monster fight, then? Like normal skirmishers, the handlers and monster both line up together?

No the monster is just a monster, it moves like a monster and so on. treat the handlers like riders, or skink handlers, and line them up beside the monster when it gets charged.

Wrong Leith. Check the Skirmish Rules for Monsters and Handlers.

Specifically mentions the entire unit moving as per Skirmishers, ergo no half movement for terrain.

And yes, you line them up as per normal skirmishers.

I believe the Mad Doc is correct on all points except wounding yourself. The special rules do not specify.
The main rulebook tells you to count “all wounds inflicted by a side”, which could conceivably be stretched to allow Archaon’s wounds on himself to BENEFIT him, but I’ve never seen anyone play that way. IME those wounds are normally ignored for CR.

Spellbound wrote:
4) Does frenzy trump Stupidity? Frenzy no longer grants "immune to psychology" anymore so they still check for stupidity, but if you fail stupidity when there's enemies in charge range, which takes effect?

Thanks in advance!

Frenzy does grant ItP. Bottom of page 35 of the floppy rule book; "Frenzied units are Immune to Psychology (see the next page) as long as they are Frenzied."

Just to point out. Think the others guys have handled the questions.

but does immune ItP grant immunity to stupidity? I thought it only made you immune to panic fear and terror.

Stupidity is psycology
Immunity to psycology =
Immunity to Stupidty

Frenzy gives Immunity to Psychology, but in 7th edition, ItP only makes you immune to Fear, Terror, and Panic. Not ALL psychology.

Yea, that's what i thought. i remember the Rule book changed ItP to something that didn't make you immune to ALL phycology. that would really screw the Dark Elves because they would be immune to hatred. HA that would be funny!!!

I was just basing it off what others had said
No BRB in front of me

1) Also consider that the ruled for the HC say to ignore the dwarves entirely.

2) Not clear. Hopefully a FAQ will address this. As it is, one side inflicted the wounds so could count them!

3) Also not clear. Trolls rolling stupidity for example.

Some interesting points:

Hellcannon can move and fire: A warmachine cannot, but the cannon is not a warmachine, but a monster, so like salamanders, can move and shoot.

Monster and handlers deploy like skirmishers, but charge arcs and visibility is 45 degrees from monster (see rules for monsters)

Immune to psychology only makes you immune to fear, terror and panic, now, not all psychology.

If a unit is 'immune to stupidity' it will have a special rule saying "immune to stupidity"

Saying that frenzy gives immune to all psychology is a logic error. as soon as they are frenzied, they are immune to all psychology, meaning they losefrenzy, meaning theyre not immune to psycology, but have lost frenzy...

I never really said frenzy gives immunity to psychology. I knew that already. I know I still roll for stupidity.

The question is, if I fail my stupidity check, but there's enemies in charge range, what do I do? Charge, because I have to according to frenzy, or wander forward at standard movement, as per Stupidity? [obviously if they're only a couple inches away this would be a charge anyway, but that's not the question].


The Hellcannon cannot move and shoot because its shot works exactly like a stonethrower, which cannot be shot if it has moved.

IT's a good question about the Frenzy and Stupidity. Also works for Animosity, Calling The Waaagh! and Waaagh!

I'd say a 1 for Animosity prevents me from moving, effectively replacing Frenzies movement rule.

But the Spell Waaagh! overides the failed Animosity. Is certainly the way I've been playing it.

The Hellcannon cannot move and shoot because its shot works exactly like a stonethrower, which cannot be shot if it has moved.

True, a stone thrower can't shoot if it has moved, but that's a war machine rule, not a special rule for firing a stone thrower. The Hellcannon is no longer a war machine, and not bound by that rule.

Makes me glad I never added the chains bitz to my Hellcannon.

Xenith look at undead that are frenzied or stupid ala VC's

Some other interesting notes about the new codex: Khalek doesnt take up a rare even though hes a shaggoth
You can take 3 shaggoths if you take Kholek + 2 more
Hellcannons only take up 1 rare slot.

Technically, Kholek is *not* a Shaggoth at all. He is in fact, a Kholek, and only one Kholek can be taken per army.

Spellbound wrote:I never really said frenzy gives immunity to psychology. I knew that already. I know I still roll for stupidity.

The question is, if I fail my stupidity check, but there's enemies in charge range, what do I do? Charge, because I have to according to frenzy, or wander forward at standard movement, as per Stupidity? [obviously if they're only a couple inches away this would be a charge anyway, but that's not the question].

Generally in Warhammer and 40k “can’t” trumps “must”. If you are prevented from charging by a negative condition that instead forces a required movement on you, then you lose your ability to charge. A frenzied unit must charge if able, but if it can’t, it simply can’t.