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Lascannons sound better than most, but then at the same time Mortars have a very nice wound-point ratio....

I realize each weapon serves an entirely different purpose, but just overall I would like some peoples opinions.

None of the above TBH, HWS are too expensive and fragile. But if you have to take something ACs or LCs are the only real options. LCs are better against most vehicles and elite infantry, ACs give you some anti-light-vehicle shooting while also doubling your firepower against light infantry compared to LCs.

Also, mortars do not have a very nice wound-point ratio unless your opponent is stupid and clusters all of their models into perfect mortar formation. Against a smart player mortars do very little damage and cost way too many points.

Due to incredible internal balance in the Dex, if you want lascanons you may as well pay the few extra points for a vandetta. It's Far Far more cost effective to put HW into infantry squad and in that case it's usually autocanons or mortars for me..
But since you can't split fire, HWS should be something you can't slip into IS, such as anti-tank las..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I disagree with above post, mortars have their uses against SOME armies due to pinning.. Very situational however

Strayan wrote:
And I disagree with above post, mortars have their uses against SOME armies due to pinning..

They really don't. Mortars are only ST4 AP 6 with effectively one hit per shot so getting the necessary wound to force a pinning check is hardly guaranteed, and most of the things you care about pinning have enough leadership (including re-rolls, fearless, etc) that a successful pinning test is rare. Instead of screwing around trying to pin the best thing to do is put those points into more guns and kill the threat.

By wound to point ratio I was referencing to the wounds of the unit, not dealt wounds.

Barrage seems like it would be useful for a Heavy Weapons squad...

P.S. I realize HWS are not an effective use of points, that is irrelevant.

 LordHamshire wrote:
By wound to point ratio I was referencing to the wounds of the unit, not dealt wounds.

Why does this ratio matter? If you want the most wounds per point you take infantry and conscript squads. HWS are there to do damage, taking away damage to improve a random defensive stat is a suicidally bad plan.

Barrage seems like it would be useful for a Heavy Weapons squad...

It would be, if that barrage actually did anything. Mortars are such a weak weapon to start with that even adding barrage to them doesn't make them a viable threat.

P.S. I realize HWS are not an effective use of points, that is irrelevant.

Of course it's relevant. If you don't care about what is an effective use of points then why does it matter what you arm them with? Just take one mortar, one HB, and one LC for a "versatile" and "fluffy" squad and forget about the math.

If mortars average 1 hit per template, than each mortar squad that fires has a 50% chance of sniping out a guy that isn't named Sarg.

HWT are very vulnerable to anything. Grots will over-run them.
That being said, it seem like if you are going to take HWTs, taking the team that doesn't need line of sight seems like an obvious choice.

60 points for 3 S4 AP5 barrage blasts isn't horrible.
You should be able to hide them, they do score. It's one more thing that's dirt cheap, some what effective, and your opponent has to deal with.

Where cheap Heavy Weapon Squads shine is being over-killed. Generally you stuck either over-killing the mortar team, or ignoring it.
I wouldn't feel bad about firing my 2 psycannons and 8 psybolt storm bolters into a 20 man combined infantry squad, but I'd really hate to do that to 3 mortars. But if I ignore them, they are going to be lobbing shots onto my psycannons...

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If mortars average 1 hit per template, than each mortar squad that fires has a 50% chance of sniping out a guy that isn't named Sarg.

HWT are very vulnerable to anything. Grots will over-run them.
That being said, it seem like if you are going to take HWTs, taking the team that doesn't need line of sight seems like an obvious choice.

60 points for 3 S4 AP5 barrage blasts isn't horrible.
You should be able to hide them, they do score. It's one more thing that's dirt cheap, some what effective, and your opponent has to deal with.

Where cheap Heavy Weapon Squads shine is being over-killed. Generally you stuck either over-killing the mortar team, or ignoring it.
I wouldn't feel bad about firing my 2 psycannons and 8 psybolt storm bolters into a 20 man combined infantry squad, but I'd really hate to do that to 3 mortars. But if I ignore them, they are going to be lobbing shots onto my psycannons...

Thanks! This was helpful.

I can't take anyone's tactical advice seriously if they try and justify mortars as anything other than a complete and total waste of a heavy weapon slot.

I mean, seriously, mortars are purely anti-infantry weapons, marginally worse than bolters because of the AP. The small blasts won't be doing a lot against anyone who uses proper spacing. Autocannons are better in every conceivable way, for a small increase in points, and even smaller points increase when you factor in the carrying cost of the squad in the first place.

When it comes to heavy weapons in squads, there are only two options that exist for semi-competitive/competitive lists; the lascannon and autocannon.

Seriously, mortars are terrible. I wouldn't take them if they were free.

Pinning firewarriors is never a bad thing.

I would say keep LCs in your blob squads, and AC HWS in the waaaayyy back.

Quad launcher (eg. Thudd guns) > Mortars.

Seriously, if you want to spam pinning checks, there's no better way. A single quad gun is cheaper than an entire HWS with mortars, has higher toughness, puts out an extra blast, and adds a negative modifier to leadership. Pretty much everything you could ever want in a mortar based unit.

Mortars are useful if you plan to hide the squad behind terrain for whatever reason (because they can still shoot). They can barrage snipe, but they're not strong enough to be effective at it. My gaming group nicknamed them "Timewasters," because firing them is usually just a waste of time. When I used to field IG Heavy Weapon squads, I used Autocannons.

Autocannons FTW and HWT are useless unless you pound them with autocannons

 LordHamshire wrote:
Thanks! This was helpful.

So whether advice is helpful or not is decided by whether the advice agrees with you or not?

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If mortars average 1 hit per template, than each mortar squad that fires has a 50% chance of sniping out a guy that isn't named Sarg.

No. If you don't get a direct hit the closest model to assign wounds to will probably no longer be the initial target model, and then you have to wound and get through armor saves. Even against basic guardsmen you're only getting a 40% chance of sniping a specific target model, and you're down to only 15% against MEQs.

60 points for 3 S4 AP5 barrage blasts isn't horrible.

Yes it is, compared to 75 points for a Griffon that does far more damage and isn't even considered a very powerful unit.

 Peregrine wrote:

 LordHamshire wrote:
Thanks! This was helpful.

So whether advice is helpful or not is decided by whether the advice agrees with you or not?

He asked for people's opinions. That poster was able to give his opinion in a respectful manner. Besides, I thought advice was helpful if Peregrine agreed with it?

OP, I personally don't have much experience with Mortars, and I'm going to use the 3 I have for terrain pieces. I do think, however, that as non-MEQ armies like Tau are becoming more popular (as what seems to be the case,) weapons which are able to pin squads are going to be more effective than they were before. How effective? I'm not sure, but I will keep an open mind about it.

Unfortunately, the answer really is mortars. HWSs are first blood bait, and they win because they're the only HWS loadout that can hide completely out of LOS and still get to shoot.

Nothing else is going to get to shoot after turn 1 (or possibly at all). 60 points spent on mortars that shoot all game is still better than 105 that is killed before it shoots.

Of course, I also agree that mortar HWSs are terrible, but if you absolutely, positively, must take HWSs, then the mortars are the least worst option.

The question is should you be taking heavy weapon squads?

If you have available other models that can fill the role, probably not.

But if your facing someone with a anti-vehicle list, then you field and all infantry list then yeah maybe.

Choose the HWT that best suits the purpose. There is no best, just the most useful.

I have got equal performances out of all my HWT, I have 2 Autocannon teams, 2 lascannon teams and a mortar team.

And mortars are mainly used for suppression fire, the barrage and pinning work that way. If your trying to wipe out a squad with them you are wasting your time, If your trying to pin a broadside so it doesn't slag your tank then go for it

Mortars are decent, only good agaisnt infantry hordes really, I had good success with them against Orks and 'nids. The real strong point is that since they are barrage, they can negate cover (to a point) and don't require LOS.

Lascannons are also good, combined with orders they can take down pretty much any vehicle in one go. The only problem is that they stick out like a sore thumb so your opponent will concentrate on them.

Autocannons are ok, but suffer form the same problems as the lascannons, are weaker, and really are only good against xeno infantry and light (I do mean light) vehicles.

Heavy botlers..I never really used them apart once in a city fight scenario because of the rate of fire...still acceptable agaisnt xeno infantry thanks to the AP value. add FomT to make those shot counts, else the cover saves will lower thier effectiveness

Personaly, I can't wait for the new codex to show up, at least we'll have a couple of weeks of actual discussion and ideas bouncing around until the mathhammer crew comes with their do all, end all dogmatic list and put a stop to every and any IG tactical thread.

No matter what type of HWT you choose,,,I would first consider how you plan on using them. How do you want them to work with the rest of your force.

I for example use 4 teams with lascannons behind an ADL supported with creed and chenkov,,,,while other portions of my force spread out to either one flank or the other or both depending on how the table is set up.

So as to the OP,,,,,the best one would be the set up that fills the role you want for them.

 Ailaros wrote:
Unfortunately, the answer really is mortars. HWSs are first blood bait, and they win because they're the only HWS loadout that can hide completely out of LOS and still get to shoot.

Nothing else is going to get to shoot after turn 1 (or possibly at all). 60 points spent on mortars that shoot all game is still better than 105 that is killed before it shoots.

Of course, I also agree that mortar HWSs are terrible, but if you absolutely, positively, must take HWSs, then the mortars are the least worst option.

Plus most armies have some sort of shooty unit behind an ADL that you can consistently target.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
And mortars are mainly used for suppression fire, the barrage and pinning work that way. If your trying to wipe out a squad with them you are wasting your time, If your trying to pin a broadside so it doesn't slag your tank then go for it

Sorry, but that's completely wrong. Do the math on how likely you are to pin a Broadside with a mortar HWS. You get three hits, with a 4+ to wound, a 2+ armor save, LD 8-9, and possibly LD 10 (or even LD 10 with a re-roll) from an Ethereal. Now do the math on how many Broadsides you kill on average with a LC HWS. Once you do the choice will be pretty obvious.

(Hint: it's not the mortars.)

I use a mortar HWS and love them, but then again I face opponents who like to deepstrike and then shoot. So I get nice packed clusters to lob the mortars on to. The pinning has never really done anything, but I have since added a psyker battle squad to my list and hoping the leadership lowering ability makes that a good defensive measure against units that are trying to get close to charge my gunline.

For the record, I think they're bad (like most HWS), but mortars do have some nice upsides. They can hide anywhere, and have great range, so they can make use of good real estate in a crowded deployment zone. They're scoring troops. They're cheap. They keep the opponent a little bit more honest with spacing (even MEQs will take some damage if a few mortar templates get hits on bunched up squads).