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Ulcis wrote:
3 Ravagers, Night Shields & Flickerfields. Just shy of 400pts.
27 shots a turn, Str 5 AP2, so wounding on 4s with no armour save. 36" range, and can still fire all 3 guns after a 12" movement. Nightshields reduce the gravguns by 6".
Good luck hitting the Ravagers while they zip around blasting the feth outta the Centurions.
EDIT: Apologies to Ascalam, missed that post

Ulcis and Ascalam

It is really funny how DE seem to have the answer to just about every death star that people come up with, and yet cannot deal with normal lists.

I feel like that is what my pure DE have become. I put them on the table and look at my enemies army list. If he puts too many points in one basket and makes some sorts of Death start a smile. If I see a ton of meaty basic troops or vehicles I shutter.

From their special character they can get the power that ignores cover.

No, one unit cannot kill 6 in 5 turns, your grav guns will do jack against 6+ armor like Talizvar said and they have FnP for your bolters. You'll be out of range for probably 2 turns as I just keep everything back waiting to jump on objectives. So really you'll be killing maybe 1/4 to 1/2 the squad of fearless dudes in cover starting turn 2 most likely 3, leaving a whole bunch on objectives winning the game and thus killing your star.

It would be silly to just walk at you hoping to charge. I simply sit on objectives in cover. Place objectives to either side so you have to choose which ones to go after. If it's kill points I reserve most as much as I can and pick off your non-death star stuff with lascannons and hell drakes then alternate zombie units as a shield so you get very few kill points.

My first post really was just saying you would get tired of playing against someone who has to move that much stuff every turn and quit or run out of time. All and all I think that unit belongs in a museum...and so do you. (to finish the quote)

I would throw a single outflanking seeker squad at it, and then laugh my ass off as the Marine player starts sobbing.

I may be wrong, but an AoBF juggerlord would single handedly kill them all in CC ?

Any fast moving CC unit would have them stuck forever, because unless I am mistaken, Centurions do not have any CC weapons and no AP ?

They do not, but how do you expect to get to CC distance before they kill you?

With your own 3+ save without doing the math i could guess that with Prescience this unit will kill your Juggerlord with just overwatch.

which they cannot do.

old zorgwort to turn tigarius into a squig, nobs in trukks/battlewagons with PKs, maybe a mek with a KFF for some cover.

Leman Russ Executioner with PC sponsons and a lascannon or two will do the trick.

Demo Vets in chimera

Mawlocs DSing under them

many many options

lordra001 wrote:
old zorgwort to turn tigarius into a squig, nobs in trukks/battlewagons with PKs, maybe a mek with a KFF for some cover.

Leman Russ Executioner with PC sponsons and a lascannon or two will do the trick.

Demo Vets in chimera

Mawlocs DSing under them

many many options

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Zogwort's powers flat out not work as per the RAW of the FAQ?

It's a silly FAQ that a lot of people would probably let you ignore, but it's there.

sleekid wrote:
which they cannot do.

Oh, good point Still if they decide to shoot at him he will almost definitely die, so you would need multiple threats such as Daemon Princes and Mualerfiends for target saturation.

Actually i will let you know my experience.
Without going as far as Tygurius + 6 Centurions (which will be very often overkill), i will face tomorrow 4 Centurions + tooled up Chapter master for tanking, coteaz and probably an inquisitor as well in there...

My own list has 3 squads of WS bikers (2 with grav) with CM, 3 DKs, a thunderfire, and Coteaz with some henchmen in reserve.

If two DKs can charge the unit then they are dead (one will likely be tanked in duel by the CM), otherwise i will have to run around the unit with my better mobilty and soften it with grav (and the barrage from CM)

Is Escalation an option? 1 Shadowsword. I shoot first, game over.

 Deadshot wrote:
Is Escalation an option? 1 Shadowsword. I shoot first, game over.

Escalation is always an option Its a matter of whether or not the opponent is open to playing against escalation.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
They do not, but how do you expect to get to CC distance before they kill you?

With your own 3+ save without doing the math i could guess that with Prescience this unit will kill your Juggerlord with just overwatch.

He always runs around with a bunch of spawn and their save is not good.

 Exergy wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
They do not, but how do you expect to get to CC distance before they kill you?

With your own 3+ save without doing the math i could guess that with Prescience this unit will kill your Juggerlord with just overwatch.

He always runs around with a bunch of spawn and their save is not good.

He runs around (like cavalery / beast style) so unless your deathstar is in the middle of a 24' open plain, he'll get to them. He'll duel and kill Tigurius then the sergent (or vice versa), and proceed to wipe your deathstar. Considering he and his buddies cost half your deathstar, I'd say that's something to consider. I realize you mignt no get into that king of guy every day though. (and if you're opponent is in a bad mood, he'll be infiltrated via Huron.)

 Seb wrote:
I may be wrong, but an AoBF juggerlord would single handedly kill them all in CC ?

Any fast moving CC unit would have them stuck forever, because unless I am mistaken, Centurions do not have any CC weapons and no AP ?

Not unless your opponent is using the most stupidly broken Chapter Tactic: White Scars. The juggerlord is forced to challenge and kill the chump sarge and then they proceed to hit and run and blast you to bits. I've tried it a few times...

I would say a full Assault Squad divided into 2 parts either deep striking or just running towards them using the jump pack.

It seems like a job for fast attack units.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I would throw a single outflanking seeker squad at it, and then laugh my ass off as the Marine player starts sobbing.

Usually I go for Gate of Infinity after forewarning or endurance with Tigger when running centurions. If I still don't get what I want I throw Coteaz in as well. Assuming whatever you got doesn't die to 20 AP2 overwatch shots with reroll I'll be gating out of CC and shooting/overwatching again.

dadakkaest wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I would throw a single outflanking seeker squad at it, and then laugh my ass off as the Marine player starts sobbing.

Usually I go for Gate of Infinity after forewarning or endurance with Tigger when running centurions. If I still don't get what I want I throw Coteaz in as well. Assuming whatever you got doesn't die to 20 AP2 overwatch shots with reroll I'll be gating out of CC and shooting/overwatching again.

Grav-guns will be wounding seekers on a 6. In regular shooting, your centurions will be doing 4 wounds on average to my 20xseeker blob. In overwatch, they'll be doing 1 wound. So I can basically just ignore your shooting for the entire game.

Gate of Infinity will only help you for so long, because the board is only so big. With my 21'' move, you'll get maybe one round of safety from gate of infinity before you're stuck in a corner and you get assaulted. 60 WS5 rending attacks will kill 3.5 of your centurions in my fight phase alone. Even if you manage to gate of infinity away, your firepower will be cut down to a 1/3rd.

So congrats, your 635 point deathstar just got neutered by a 240 point unit.


EDIT- Something else to keep in mind is that gate of infinity is a blessing, you have to use it in your movement phase. So if you use gate of infinity to jump away from my seekers, they'll be out of range of your grav-guns. So Gate of Infinity away all you want. Every turn you do it is a turn that your 635 point deathstar isn't shooting at anything, while my 1200 points of other daemons is demolishing your 800 points of other marines.

None of these so called 'counters' you guys are suggesting are competitive or even real counters.

Gravstar has only one real counter, AP 1 Barrage weapons or massed Str 10 ap 1. Chapter Masters and Orbital Bombardment, Inquisitors who luck into Burner of Worlds, and even this can be mitigated with a Bastion. If FW is involved, Necron Sentry Pylons are another option as O'vesa/CM can't tank the Str 10 Ap 1 line shooting attack as it happens from anywhere.

Assault options are extremely iffy because hit and run/gate leaves you vulnerable to a heavy counterattack and risks psychotroke/rad grenades, and it is extremely unlikely you can do enough damage on the assault with O'vesa/ CM tanking wounds.

Really?

Explain to me how 80 rending hits on a 21'' moving chassis isn't "competitive"? Seekers are one of the most competitive units in the dameons codex.

Gates of Infinity is useless because if you use it to run away from an assaulting unit, you'll be out of range to shoot said assaulting unit anyway.

No, a single round of assault from seekers will neuter a centurion deathstar. It doesn't matter what IC's you have attached to it. Even with a shield-eternal chapter master tanking wounds, the first fight phase puts 8 wounds on the squad, killing the CM outright and one and a half centurions. You gate of infinity away at the start of your next turn, congrats, that 700 point deathstar is out of range to shoot anything, so it sits there looking dumb until I get in range to assault it again, and this time I put 12 wounds on it and murder almost the entire squad.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Really?

Explain to me how 80 rending hits on a 21'' moving chassis isn't "competitive"? Seekers are one of the most competitive units in the dameons codex.

Gates of Infinity is useless because if you use it to run away from an assaulting unit, you'll be out of range to shoot said assaulting unit anyway.

No, a single round of assault from seekers will neuter a centurion deathstar. It doesn't matter what IC's you have attached to it. Even with a shield-eternal chapter master tanking wounds, the first fight phase puts 8 wounds on the squad, killing the CM outright and one and a half centurions. You gate of infinity away at the start of your next turn, congrats, that 700 point deathstar is out of range to shoot anything, so it sits there looking dumb until I get in range to assault it again, and this time I put 12 wounds on it and murder almost the entire squad.

They're so competitive not a single Daemon player coming in top 16 at any recent GT has yet to run them?

They're a grimoire sink and without which crumple like paper. They don't even have frag grenades so can't assault into cover. It does matter what ICs you have, because rolls of 2 and 5 totally screw your Seekers on the Psychotroke table, not to mention when you get assaulted (and you will, because any decent Gravstar has hit and run) you strike at I1 thanks to psyk-out grenades. Large unit footprint means not every single model will be able to strike, and low T means they are extremely vulnerable to small arms, and it is extremely unlikely your seekers will get to combat without taking casualties. 60 rending attacks at Ws 5 is less than 8 wounds against majority T5 or 6, and shockingly easy to tank with 2+, 3++, FNP and look-out-sir.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
[EDIT- Something else to keep in mind is that gate of infinity is a blessing, you have to use it in your movement phase. So if you use gate of infinity to jump away from my seekers, they'll be out of range of your grav-guns. So Gate of Infinity away all you want. Every turn you do it is a turn that your 635 point deathstar isn't shooting at anything, while my 1200 points of other daemons is demolishing your 800 points of other marines.

Gate of infinity is 24 inches, grav cannons are 24 inch range.

Want to know how else I know you've never played against this unit?

Seekers are lol. I've never even had them threaten my orks. Let alone my sisters/marines or knights/marines.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

They're so competitive not a single Daemon player coming in top 16 at any recent GT has yet to run them?

They're a grimoire sink and without which crumple like paper. They don't even have frag grenades so can't assault into cover. It does matter what ICs you have, because rolls of 2 and 5 totally screw your Seekers on the Psychotroke table, not to mention when you get assaulted (and you will, because any decent Gravstar has hit and run) you strike at I1 thanks to psyk-out grenades. Large unit footprint means not every single model will be able to strike, and low T means they are extremely vulnerable to small arms, and it is extremely unlikely your seekers will get to combat without taking casualties. 60 rending attacks at Ws 5 is less than 8 wounds against majority T5 or 6, and shockingly easy to tank with 2+, 3++, FNP and look-out-sir.

8 wounds is going to kill your SE chapter master and one centurion, which is already haflway toward neutering your squad. That's frankly more than enough for a single phase of combat. Hit and run away, move 7 inches, shoot and kill, what, 4 guys on average? Get assaulted again and you lose two more guys, ad naeuseum.

idk why you think T5 and AP2 is impressive against rending, nor why I should be afraid of grav-guns that'll be wounding on 6's in addition to my 5++. Even if you manage to kill off the entire squad, you won't be killing them all before losing at least 2/3rds of your centurions. So your 945 POINT deathstar (6xCenturions /w gravs, tiggy, naked CM with SE, Coteaz) has spent two to three rounds of the game killing a single 240 point unit.

Yeah man, those points are really paying for themselves.

dadakkaest wrote:


Gate of infinity is 24 inches, grav cannons are 24 inch range.

Want to know how else I know you've never played against this unit?

Right, you'll always be base-to-base with them, and you'll never scatter.

Try again, Bragg.

Yeah no way I could ever see an assault coming, or put my models 15 inches away with gate and then I'd have to scatter >9 away.

You're just reaching now.

Seekers don't make it across the board anyway. So a silly point.

If you're trying to use the gate to avoid being assaulted, then putting the squad 15 inches away is a dumb idea. Try to keep up with the discussion, friend.

Seekers don't make it across the board? Do tell. What's going to kill them before they get there? Your centurions with the 24'' range who wound on 6's? The ~500 points of whatever else you have on the board that's going to be getting slammed by my 1100 points of other daemons?

dadakkaest wrote:
Yeah no way I could ever see an assault coming, or put my models 15 inches away with gate and then I'd have to scatter >9 away.

You're just reaching now.

Seekers don't make it across the board anyway. So a silly point.

She has maybe 400 points invested into seekers.

You have like 1000 points invested into a death star.

She has 1100 points of other things to throw at you while your Deathstar plays chicken with her Riders.

I'm not trying to avoid being assaulted. I'm trying to get 2 more rounds of shooting in. If you don't play the unit, it's probably just best to keep quiet about how they're played.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

dadakkaest wrote:
Yeah no way I could ever see an assault coming, or put my models 15 inches away with gate and then I'd have to scatter >9 away.

You're just reaching now.

Seekers don't make it across the board anyway. So a silly point.

She has maybe 400 points invested into seekers.

You have like 1000 points invested into a death star.

She has 1100 points of other things to throw at you while your Deathstar plays chicken with her Riders.

Mine's around 600 all told. And my knight's going to be dropping pie plates and D strength exploding all over her face before she gets anywhere close.

Last time I played a slaneesh player I tabled them. With orks no less.

Knights? lol. Now who's reaching.

Your single 240 point seeker squad won't kill my Centurion deathstar when it has this bodyguard of knights protecting it!

Yeah, no gak.

dadakkaest wrote:
I'm not trying to avoid being assaulted. I'm trying to get 2 more rounds of shooting in. If you don't play the unit, it's probably just best to keep quiet about how they're played.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

dadakkaest wrote:
Yeah no way I could ever see an assault coming, or put my models 15 inches away with gate and then I'd have to scatter >9 away.

You're just reaching now.

Seekers don't make it across the board anyway. So a silly point.

She has maybe 400 points invested into seekers.

You have like 1000 points invested into a death star.

She has 1100 points of other things to throw at you while your Deathstar plays chicken with her Riders.

Mine's around 600 all told. And my knight's going to be dropping pie plates and D strength exploding all over her face before she gets anywhere close.

Last time I played a slaneesh player I tabled them. With orks no less.

So...1000 points before you even can get any troops.

What exactly is your plan if all your scoring units are neutralized?

This is very much putting too many eggs in too few baskets.

5 centurions with all the trimmings and tigger is 675ish. I usually run 4 and the knight. and then my troops are 5 land speeder storms full of scouts. Tigger also acts as a comms relay. Since stupid book missions don't take score until the end of the game some of them will be in reserve.