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 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 tjnorwoo wrote:

Would it work to take tons of small 10-15 man units to outmanuever him?

Yeah, it kind of does. 10-15 dwarfs will beat most of what he brings (except the giant and squig herd).

-Matt

I want to buy 20 hammerers and have a unit a unit of long beards accompany them with several smaller warrior unit, then kit out a killy thane

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 tjnorwoo wrote:

Would it work to take tons of small 10-15 man units to outmanuever him?

Yeah, it kind of does. 10-15 dwarfs will beat most of what he brings (except the giant and squig herd).

-Matt

Keep in mind though that they cannot break any bigger units of Goblins in case he decides to play his Goblin army like a Goblin army

And pray to god he doesn't bring Doom Divers. They'll turn those small units into a bloody pulp of metal.

What's a better option, a cannon or an organ gun

I'd go for the cannon - use it to kill his war machine asap.

Agreed on the cannon. The range is just too useful.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Keep in mind though that they cannot break any bigger units of Goblins in case he decides to play his Goblin army like a Goblin army

And pray to god he doesn't bring Doom Divers. They'll turn those small units into a bloody pulp of metal.

A unit or two of 15 Dwarfs will take down a Goblin block just as surely as one unit of 30. It might take a turn more, it might take a turn less. Depending on charges and such.

And while Doom Divers might be a serious threat to small units, they're not really any bigger of a threat to medium-sized units than they are to larger ones. 3.5 hits = 2.3 wounds vs T4. If that's 2.3 casualties out of one of three 15-strong blocks, or 2.3 out of 1 unit of 40-strong, it doesn't matter much. Not to Dwarfs.

Warpsolution wrote:
Agreed on the cannon. The range is just too useful.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Keep in mind though that they cannot break any bigger units of Goblins in case he decides to play his Goblin army like a Goblin army

And pray to god he doesn't bring Doom Divers. They'll turn those small units into a bloody pulp of metal.

A unit or two of 15 Dwarfs will take down a Goblin block just as surely as one unit of 30. It might take a turn more, it might take a turn less. Depending on charges and such.

And while Doom Divers might be a serious threat to small units, they're not really any bigger of a threat to medium-sized units than they are to larger ones. 3.5 hits = 2.3 wounds vs T4. If that's 2.3 casualties out of one of three 15-strong blocks, or 2.3 out of 1 unit of 40-strong, it doesn't matter much. Not to Dwarfs.

A unit of 15 faces a SCR disadvantage of -3 for quite a few turns and will most likely fight against a Steadfast unit for the rest of the game. A regular unit of Dwarfs (no Scout, Vanguard, etc.) will not make it into melee before turn 3 or 4. Count in any Goblin chaff and it's a battle of attrition you don't wanna fight. The problem with small units is casualties. Focus one unit with two Doom Divers and you are forced to take a panic test. No problem with LD 9? Well, Goblins got Steadfast LD 9 too, re-rollable, so there's that

Another big problem are VP. Killing a block of 15 Dwarfs is way easier than killing 30 of them. Killing 15 in a unit of 30 gives 0 VP (unless you send them running in the last turn). Killing a unit of 15 gives full VP. Grinding through a block of Goblins will last until the end of the game and grants about the same VP without nets / fanatics than the unit of Dwarfs - it's exactly what you want as a Goblin player, force your enemy into battles of attrition.

Goblins are Ld9 with a re-roll? I must have missed that.
Multiple small units works fine, if you pair it with warmachines of death. Double or triple stone throwers with a gyrocopter or two can very quickly take a goblin block below the point where you get a look out, and snipe the general/BSB to death.

It's tough to MSU though at 1500 points, you just can't cover enough of the table.

-Matt

I was talking of the common comp Goblin list aka LD bunker in the back

Dwarfs vs. Goblins is an extremely easy match for Dwarfs in incomped play and still a rather easy one in comped play. Just max out on artillery and fire at the Goblin army, they cannot do anything to defend themselves as they got no flyers. The only chance is to rely on luck and try to destroy the Dwarven war machines first.

If playing uncomped (why? :O), then maxing out war machines is a 100% win. Well, almost.

You won't have fun, but alas, why play Dwarfs if you want fun ;D

My friend who plays goblins also has a dwarf list and he seemed very self assured that his dwarf list would roll over the goblin list he made. He swears by having 25 man blocks of dwarfs. I was just not as confident considering the fanatics and bows would inevitably bring down ranks and with the squig herd for support theres no contest.

His argument was that dwarfs can win combat, but I guess he is going on the assumption that he peeled off enough ranks to deny steadfast.

My thought is that if a 25 dwarf unit was able to make it to combat with, 20 guys, and lets say the goblins had 1 rank peeled off from an organ gun or cannons, then it is conceivable that dwarfs could deny goblins steadfast and win combat, but in a war of attrition that dwarf unit will need support. I guess that miners would work, but with only heavy armor I see them as being pretty targets to short bows.

I think Sig is dramatically over-estimating the offensive output of Goblin warmachines if used as counter-battery fire against Dwarf warmachines.

Assuming long range and no cover, it'll take (on average) six shots by Goblin bolt throwers to even get the first wound on a Dwarf warmachine. Dwarf warmachines have three wounds, so it's likely that two successful wounds would be necessary to kill a single warmachine. So, taking 4 bolt throwers will only reliably kill a single Dwarf warmachine in three turns of shooting (though, you could get lucky and do it faster). Doom Divers are no threat to warmachines since they wound on a roll of 6; it should take two direct hits, on average, for a Doom Diver to get its first wound on a warmachine.

Dwarfs, however, with runed up cannons and grudge throwers, should legitimately be taking out 2-3 Goblin warmachines per turn. These warmachines are hitting more often with a higher strength value against models that have fewer wounds.

If Dwarfs go first in a shooting battle, there should be no Goblin warmachines left after turn two (assuming 4 bolt throwers and 2 doom divers), and odds are that not even a single Dwarf warmachine will be dead.

I have a Dwarf Gunline list that would back up these warmachines with 80-odd crossbows. These crossbows would be firing from outside of the range of Goblin short bows, getting a free turn of shooting (two if the Dwarfs go first) while the Goblin archers move into range. At long range, these are killing 2/9 Goblin per turn (17 Goblins with 80 shooters, not including BS4 rangers and a Quareller unit with re-rolls) against Goblin shooting that is killing 2/27 Dwarfs per turn.

I have a friend who plays a Goblin list. I'll have to talk him into playing Dwarf Gunlines vs Goblin Gunline to see how it goes.

Bolt Thrower wounds make your target lose 1D6 wounds on a wound and Doom Divers deal d6 hits per hit, thus are more potent than normal shots.

You might have read my posts wrong, though - I have always said that Dwarfs will just steamroll any Goblin army at ease

The only viable tactic vs. Dwarfs as Goblins is points-denial to the max. Clutter your deployment zone with impassable terrain, deploy as wide as possible and therefore force reinforcements to lower the amount of troops on the field at all times. Hide all your troops behind LOS-blocking terrain etc. End the game with a draw if possible or try to lose as few points as possible.

It's endlessly boring and no fun for anyone, but that's what gunline armies tend to play.

Further keep in mind: I only play with competitive rules right now and you can't force gunlines with those.

Sig do you think the 25 dwarf blocks are a solid choice facing goblins, 5 by 5? I purchased the dwarfs originally for my brother then he moved to singapore. I have been playtesting to find the right set up for him to play a good game against hordes.

 Sigvatr wrote:
A unit of 15 faces a SCR disadvantage of -3 for quite a few turns and will most likely fight against a Steadfast unit for the rest of the game.

Of course. But what if that same block is facing a unit of 15 to the front, and another to the flank? Suddenly, that's a big difference. I'm not saying its a better choice. Just an equal one.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The problem with small units is casualties. Focus one unit with two Doom Divers and you are forced to take a panic test. No problem with LD 9? Well, Goblins got Steadfast LD 9 too, re-rollable, so there's that

Please. There's a vast difference between army-wide Ld9 and army wide Ld6 with one model that's Ld8. Oh, and those re-rolls? They're on the model that bumps that Ld8 to a 9, and because it's doing that, it has no means of protection besides its bunker.

What is the best way to deny steadfast? Obviously its peeling off ranks or getting a flank attack, but what units are most effective against goblins. My guess is runed up grudge thrower and hammerers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
miners could work as a diversion to help divert the attention that would be recieved from short bows.

 tjnorwoo wrote:
What is the best way to deny steadfast? Obviously its peeling off ranks or getting a flank attack,

A flank charge causes Distruption, which removes the rank bonus. However it does not remove Steadfast.

Warpsolution wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
A unit of 15 faces a SCR disadvantage of -3 for quite a few turns and will most likely fight against a Steadfast unit for the rest of the game.

Of course. But what if that same block is facing a unit of 15 to the front, and another to the flank? Suddenly, that's a big difference. I'm not saying its a better choice. Just an equal one..

You cannot flank Goblin units if the Goblin players knows what he's doing, their chaff easily denies any attempts at flanking. Don't be too worried about shortbows, though. Those are a lot of shots, but they come from terrible shooters with terrible weapons.

The best way to remove Steadfast is...well..waiting for 9th. It's overpowered as heck.

Spear Chukkas only do D3 wounds, not D6 Sigvatr.
Doom Divers do a D6 hits, but need 6's to wound.

The advantage of the O&G machines is the 4th crewmen, and being dirt cheap.
For the cost of 2 cannons and 2 stone throwers, the goblins can show up with 6 Spear Chukkas, 2 rock lobbas and a doom diver (all with the 4th crewmen, except the doomdiver).
If they run an Orc Shaman, warpath can dish out fist fulls of S7 hits doing D3 wounds, or teleport units 3D6 or 5D6 inches forward.
Like most shoot outs, it favors who fires first. Goblins do have an advantage of fast cav and M9 chariot Units. Wolf Riders charging in with S4/S3 and 4+ armor are going to win, or at the very least stop the shooting for a turn or two.

 tjnorwoo wrote:
what units are most effective against goblins. My guess is runed up grudge thrower and hammerers.

miners could work as a diversion to help divert the attention that would be recieved from short bows.

Hammerers are pretty sick, it's true. They're also pretty expensive and die almost as easily as basic Warriors. If you can get them into combat, you're golden. A unit of 18 is going to kill 10+ goblins in that first turn, Nets or no.
As far as Grudge Throwers go, Penetration isn't worth it anymore. That's half the cost of another 'Thrower, right there.
Miners probably won't be getting shot at, if you bring 'em in on the flank. Goblin shooting is pretty poor without the -1 from moving. But those Miners can release Fanatics at less useful angles, and even 10 of them could bring the pain and stop the block from shooting other stuff for a while.

 Sigvatr wrote:
You cannot flank Goblin units if the Goblin players knows what he's doing, their chaff easily denies any attempts at flanking...

...The best way to remove Steadfast is...well..waiting for 9th. It's overpowered as heck.

That line of thinking is so flawed I don't even know where to begin. "A player worth his salt will ensure that X, Y, or Z always/never happens". No. A good player can make it difficult for X, Y, or Z, but it's not impossible.
Goblin chaff, you say? Quarrelers, I say. Or Thunderers. Or Organ Guns. Or Miners. Or Gyrocopters. Or multiple charges. There are ways.

Warpsolution wrote:
That line of thinking is so flawed I don't even know where to begin. "A player worth his salt will ensure that X, Y, or Z always/never happens". No. A good player can make it difficult for X, Y, or Z, but it's not impossible.
Goblin chaff, you say? Quarrelers, I say. Or Thunderers. Or Organ Guns. Or Miners. Or Gyrocopters. Or multiple charges. There are ways.

Oh, I agree with you. Competitive Goblin armies are a bit difficult, though, as there only is 1 viable (type of) list to play. It's similar to ye old Dwarf corner castle. You cannot flank a corner castle. Well..okay, you *can* by casting Rage on one of the blocks on the very edge, praying for them to fail their LD test, charging your unit that is not getting shot apart first, then carefully maneuvering one of your chaff units at the very edge of the board without getting shot, then trying to flank the Dwarven unit - all assuming they didn't take the Vowing Stone (or w/e it's called)...you see where I'm getting at

...or you bust a hole in their line with magic and shooting. Or you hit them with something that's legitimately dangerous, and give them the choice: let your unit grind theirs down and break through, or they can counter-charge you with other units, which will create a hole in their front lines somewhere else.

When it comes to lists like the Goblin ones, I usually end up going after their chaff and anything that can threaten me. Which, for Goblins, are usually the same units.

Isn't going after everything that threatens you kinda what everyone does?

 Sigvatr wrote:
Isn't going after everything that threatens you kinda what everyone does?

not if youre a goblin

As a Goblin player, everything threatens you, including your own troops

Warpsolution wrote:
...or you bust a hole in their line with magic and shooting. Or you hit them with something that's legitimately dangerous, and give them the choice: let your unit grind theirs down and break through, or they can counter-charge you with other units, which will create a hole in their front lines somewhere else.

When it comes to lists like the Goblin ones, I usually end up going after their chaff and anything that can threaten me. Which, for Goblins, are usually the same units.

See this is one thing that gets me.

I play a lot of chariots/wagons/squig herd push style list because gun lines are extremely boring to me. I hate making someone pull a 100$ 30-hour-into-it-piece-of-art off the table because I rolled to hit, a 2+ to wound, and rolled a 4+ for # of wounds.. If he left model out in open to multiple charges from chariots, or squigs, or left me a good line to shoot my mangler.. That is all fun and games to me because it feels more tactical but that is really just personal preference.

Seeing as I bring all the killy-chaff.. I have run into the situation where people just ignore my blocks kill my chariots and wagons to be up 300 points and then stand around rest of game. It sucks but not much you can do about it but either blitzkrieg them with so many units youll get some through and make back points, or play very conservatively and let your chariots and killy-chaff counter charge only pretty much. Whenever I half ass it and push one flank and not the other, that flank of killy chaff is always utterly destroyed. Opponent just turns to face that direction and magic/shoots it/charges it to death.


I can't tell you how much it overjoys me when I win a combat vs. Chaos warriors or the like with goblins thanks to a counter charge from chariots or wagons. The combat victories are few and far between but that makes them that much more sweet. I try to layer my counter charge threats like an onion. I'll put my squig horde out front of chariots and wagons or vice versa depending on match up.. That way when one charges out to counter a block hitting my goblins, the "hole" is plugged with the frontage of 3-6 chariots facing it (usually out of range from enemy chargers at this point).. so whichever unfortunate soul of a unit moves to take advantage of it.. does so at a large risk. With how cheap wagons and chariots are... I have been running double squig hordes on either flank with 3 chariots or 3 wagons supporting each. I have been liking it quite a bit!

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Spear Chukkas only do D3 wounds, not D6 Sigvatr.
Doom Divers do a D6 hits, but need 6's to wound.

The advantage of the O&G machines is the 4th crewmen, and being dirt cheap.
For the cost of 2 cannons and 2 stone throwers, the goblins can show up with 6 Spear Chukkas, 2 rock lobbas and a doom diver (all with the 4th crewmen, except the doomdiver).
If they run an Orc Shaman, warpath can dish out fist fulls of S7 hits doing D3 wounds, or teleport units 3D6 or 5D6 inches forward.
Like most shoot outs, it favors who fires first. Goblins do have an advantage of fast cav and M9 chariot Units. Wolf Riders charging in with S4/S3 and 4+ armor are going to win, or at the very least stop the shooting for a turn or two.

Matt is usually good for some well thought out posts.

Though, if a Dwarf players is running a true gunline, there really isn't going to be anything that a unit of wolf riders will be able to charge and have enough left over to tie up the target unit for even a round of shooting. Warmachines should be out of chargeable position due to Quarreller placement, and a unit of 20 GW Quarrellers will destroy a typically sized unit of wolf riders between stand and shoot and WS4 S5 attacks.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Isn't going after everything that threatens you kinda what everyone does?

...yup. But as said above, I also want to target their chaff, so I can rule the movement phase. And with Orcs & Goblins, their chaff is also the largest threat on the board, so it's like killing two birds with one stone. Granted, when playing as Orcs & Goblins, every Chariot/Wagons/Mangler I take fulfills two roles, so it goes both ways.

 Sigvatr wrote:
As a Goblin player, everything threatens you, including your own troops

touche