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2014/04/24 01:04:25
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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now this may have been asked before if so please pop up a link. but.
DO grenades count as weapons?, then can be thrown, used in CC etc etc
now its silly as hell, but in my csm book melee weapons can be taken if you swap items like say bolt pistol and/or CC weapon.
BUT artifacts jsut say replaces 1 weapon (non specific) as do the ranged weapons options.
this is as per the digital codex. and it smell like french cheese, but im curious. and im sure its got a quick answer thats a NO. buut i thought id put it out there
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 01:07:23
CSM 20,000 Pts
Daemons 4,000 (ish)
WoC over 10,000
6000+ Pts
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2014/04/24 01:18:38
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Interestingly the answer isn't a 'No,' or at least it isn't as clear cut as that, because Grenades are found in a section of Rules titled 'Weapons.' However, many people believe the Authors did not intend for players to swap out Grenades and this is an oversight at best. It is far more likely that someone from the head office decided to relocate Grenades to the Weapon section because it looked 'neater' in the final printing to keep weapon like rules together in the same place. This person, likely an editor or someone not even part of the writing staff, did so without realizing that certain Rules and Situations would make it vital to know if Grenades are 'Weapons' or nothing more then 'War-gear that happens to have a Weapon like feel.' Previous threads have supported this conclusion, by pointing out that older editions of Warhammer 40k had Grenades firmly within the 'War-gear' section and that most of the Rules causing this problem have a certain cut-and-pasted quality that can be tracked back to older editions where it wouldn't of been an issue. Like all such situations: We now have a group on this board that firmly believe it is a legal swap We now have a group that will call 'that ******* guy' against anyone trying it And we still have a group just wondering what the hell the authors intended....
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/24 01:28:25
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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2014/04/24 01:54:41
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller
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RAW yes you can because as JinxDragon said grenades are classified as weapons in the core rulebook and I do play it that way, but I also agree with JinxDragon's sentiment that we don't really know what the authors intended with that, esp since they use the same sentence in the Dark Angels codex and probably others (does the SM and Eldar codex say the same sentence? Tau doesn't but they don't have "Relic" weapons)
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2014/04/24 02:14:09
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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CrashCanuck wrote:RAW yes you can because as JinxDragon said grenades are classified as weapons in the core rulebook and I do play it that way, but I also agree with JinxDragon's sentiment that we don't really know what the authors intended with that, esp since they use the same sentence in the Dark Angels codex and probably others (does the SM and Eldar codex say the same sentence? Tau doesn't but they don't have "Relic" weapons)
well looking at the book depending on how many points you want to sink into it.
melee weapons can only be swapped for bolt pistol and/or CCW
ranged weps is any other weapon. so if you wanted to swap a grenade for a plasma pistol, for + 1 attacks then the other grenade for BM, giving + 3 attacks for 2 pistols and 2 CCW ( CCW + BM) so 6 attacks base on a Lord
and artifacts as above but more expensive..
i realize its probably unintended to be used this way. but it can be done....
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 02:16:13
CSM 20,000 Pts
Daemons 4,000 (ish)
WoC over 10,000
6000+ Pts
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2014/04/24 03:29:27
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Furious Fire Dragon
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You can only get the +1 attack for two CCW weapons once unless you are a walker or monstrous creature. Having BM, CCW, and 2 pistols, does not give you +3 attacks, it gives you +1.
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2014/04/24 03:41:51
Subject: Re:Grenades "counting" as weapons
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Yes, Grenades are clearly listed as weapons.
Intent may not have been that they are swappable, but intent matters little when it comes to GW. It implies they actually knew what they were doing when they wrote the rules down.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 03:42:25
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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2014/04/24 03:50:20
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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danny1995 wrote:You can only get the +1 attack for two CCW weapons once unless you are a walker or monstrous creature. Having BM, CCW, and 2 pistols, does not give you +3 attacks, it gives you +1.
very true.
but it would still allow 2 pistols AND a BM,
so you could shoot both, then assault... if you wanted to blow points
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CSM 20,000 Pts
Daemons 4,000 (ish)
WoC over 10,000
6000+ Pts
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2014/04/24 03:53:01
Subject: Re:Grenades "counting" as weapons
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Yup, nothing wrong with that.
You could even get creative with it. Model both his pistols as being wrist mounted, Plasma gun mounted in the codpiece, etc...
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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2014/04/24 04:05:41
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Furious Fire Dragon
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God, if that plasma gun got hot...
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2014/04/24 04:08:25
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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only time hed be concerned would be if a slaneesh lord, even then he might enjoy the sensation
tzeentch all dusty
korn, just make him madder
and nurgle, would just heal it haha
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CSM 20,000 Pts
Daemons 4,000 (ish)
WoC over 10,000
6000+ Pts
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2014/04/24 04:10:43
Subject: Re:Grenades "counting" as weapons
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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You're assuming the Plasma gun is actually a Plasma gun
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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2014/04/24 04:15:26
Subject: Re:Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Furious Fire Dragon
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Now that would be Slaanesh
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2014/04/24 04:46:50
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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Aren't grenades typically listed in the "wargear" and not included with with the ranged and melee weapons section of most armies? I know they are in the SM Codex.
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2014/04/24 05:03:49
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Lieutenant General
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ClassicCarraway wrote:Aren't grenades typically listed in the "wargear" and not included with with the ranged and melee weapons section of most armies? I know they are in the SM Codex.
The CSM codex has all of the weapons listed as a part of the model's wargear.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2014/04/24 05:05:04
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller
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In an individual codex it may be but in the core rulebook there are 3 sections under Weapons, Melee, Ranged and Grenade.
Also I've never really seen grenades as being allowed for swapping for anything other than Relics/Artifacts since that entry just says weapons whereas Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Weapons etc entries specify usually a units default pistol/CCW
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 05:06:53
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2014/04/24 05:10:17
Subject: Re:Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Hellish Haemonculus
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Before the FAQ altered the text in the Grey Knights codex, I used to swap my grenades on my Ordo Malleus Inquisitor for a Force Weapon when I took the Psyker upgrade, that way I didn't have to give up my two Daemonblades.
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2014/04/24 05:19:55
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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Ghaz wrote: ClassicCarraway wrote:Aren't grenades typically listed in the "wargear" and not included with with the ranged and melee weapons section of most armies? I know they are in the SM Codex.
The CSM codex has all of the weapons listed as a part of the model's wargear.
Not the unit entry, the Armoury listing in the codex. Even in the CSM codex, grenades of all types are considered "Special Issue Wargear". Not melee weapons, not ranged weapons, these both have their own specific section in the armoury listing. Grenades, per the codex, fall in the same category as jump packs and bikes.
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2014/04/24 07:45:57
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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ClassicCarraway wrote: Ghaz wrote: ClassicCarraway wrote:Aren't grenades typically listed in the "wargear" and not included with with the ranged and melee weapons section of most armies? I know they are in the SM Codex.
The CSM codex has all of the weapons listed as a part of the model's wargear.
Not the unit entry, the Armoury listing in the codex. Even in the CSM codex, grenades of all types are considered "Special Issue Wargear". Not melee weapons, not ranged weapons, these both have their own specific section in the armoury listing. Grenades, per the codex, fall in the same category as jump packs and bikes.
That makes for a pretty compelling no. Granades are about eligible as 'weapons' for the purposes of swapping out a 'weapon' in the codex as a Jump pack is.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/24 07:48:53
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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2014/04/24 10:35:46
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle
no idea
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ClassicCarraway wrote:
Not the unit entry, the Armoury listing in the codex. Even in the CSM codex, grenades of all types are considered "Special Issue Wargear". Not melee weapons, not ranged weapons, these both have their own specific section in the armoury listing. Grenades, per the codex, fall in the same category as jump packs and bikes.
The problem with that, is that when you look in the rulebook, to see what this "special wargear" actually is, you find it not only listed as weapons, but the description clearly describes (most of) them as weapons (rather than "another ranged weapon", etc). Chaos marines codex, for eg, compare frag grenades with blight grenades.
Strictly by RAW, if you get to swap one weapon for "this" its legal.
Personally, I wouldn't do it as it smacks of oversight and is likely to cause raised eyebrows and discontent, so probably best avoided.
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You wart-ridden imbeciles! |
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2014/04/25 05:25:32
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Death-Dealing Devastator
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In the SM codex both frag and krak grenades are listed as weapons not wargear in the index.
Both frag and krak grenades have an 8" range and have an assigned S and AP value.
They are very clearly defined as weapons and as an Army veteran I can tell you that swapping a pistol for two grenades is about equal in weight, so a swap would be more than realistic.
My only arguement would be that a SM only has two arms to fire with. Thus even having three pistols, you would still only be able to shoot two. Same with close combat. You can't fight with three swords or guns with only two hands.
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2014/04/25 07:57:12
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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ghilliemarine wrote:In the SM codex both frag and krak grenades are listed as weapons not wargear in the index.
Both frag and krak grenades have an 8" range and have an assigned S and AP value.
They are very clearly defined as weapons and as an Army veteran I can tell you that swapping a pistol for two grenades is about equal in weight, so a swap would be more than realistic.
My only argument would be that a SM only has two arms to fire with. Thus even having three pistols, you would still only be able to shoot two. Same with close combat. You can't fight with three swords or guns with only two hands.
Yet they fail to appear in the SM or CMS codex sections for weapons, I would not call them clearly defined as weapons for the reference in the index - in those areas they are also being defined as 'Melee weapons'. So for an entry that is listed as having for example;
o Close combat weapon
o Krak Granade
Do people give them 2 attacks in CC? Indeed why do they even need the entry of 'Close combat weapon' when apparently already have one...
After reading more I'm inclined to agree with Jinx.
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It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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2014/04/25 07:59:41
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Why would they ignore the rules for giving additional attacks, which clearly state they have to have the MELEE type? Krak Grenades are weapons RAW, and do not have the melee type
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2014/04/25 08:42:05
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Why would they ignore the rules for giving additional attacks, which clearly state they have to have the MELEE type? Krak Grenades are weapons RAW, and do not have the melee type
Well that's one of the problems. Grenades are very much a are at one point and aren't at another situation.
I was looking at the index section of the CSM codex, where Krak grenades are listed under Melee Weapons.
Additionally, the BRB tells you about weapon types - Grenades are not a type. The types are rapid fire (etc) and Melee. '' If a weapon range contains a '-' it is(unless otherwise stated) a melee weapon'' (50), I don't see the wording against +1 attack which say 'Melee weapon type' or 'Melee type', only 'Melee weapons'. (but maybe that's just me)
Some grenades sit outside the definition of being a weapon entirely, but they are still under the 'weapon' banner
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 11:05:14
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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2014/04/25 08:55:45
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Nem wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Why would they ignore the rules for giving additional attacks, which clearly state they have to have the MELEE type? Krak Grenades are weapons RAW, and do not have the melee type
Well that's one of the problems. Grenades are very much a are at one point and aren't at another situation.
I was looking at the index section of the CSM codex, where Krak grenades are listed under Melee Weapons.
Additionally, the BRB tells you about weapon types - Grenades are not a type. The types are rapid fire (etc) and Melee. '' If a weapon range contains a '-' it is(unless otherwise stated) a melee weapon'' (50), I don't see the wording against 2 attacks which say 'Melee weapon type' or 'Melee type', only 'Melee weapons'. (but maybe that's just me)
Some grenades sit outside the definition of being a weapon entirely, but they are still under the 'weapon' banner
Probably listed in melee because you can use them if you don't have a Melta or similar to tag someone with.
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2014/04/25 11:16:49
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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heres your problem: the most recent version overrides the older versions, also codex overrides brb see page 7... if the grenades in your codex are listed as SIWG then no you cannot change them for any anything that requires a weapon Automatically Appended Next Post: heres your problem: the most recent version overrides the older versions, also codex overrides brb see page 7... if the grenades in your codex are listed as SIWG then no you cannot change them for any anything that requires a weapon
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 11:17:00
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2014/04/25 13:30:33
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Nem- they can be used in melee, instead of making any other attacks. They are not a weapon with the melee type themselves
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2014/04/25 14:02:53
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Nem- they can be used in melee, instead of making any other attacks. They are not a weapon with the melee type themselves
I understand that, but the passages for the +1 attack the requirement is 2 'melee weapons', not weapon of the melee type (unless I'm missing something there), and BRB defines a weapon without a range (-) as a 'melee weapon' literally (Unless otherwise stated). Even the statements instead of any other attacks in the grenade section is actually ' instead of using other shooting/melee weapons'.
But we are questioning if they are actually 'weapons' in this context, or the context of those codex's.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/25 14:05:04
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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2014/04/25 14:41:34
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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They are "weapons" as defined in the BRB. Without an explicit change to this in the codex - "instead of" language, for example - they are both weapons and special issue wargear.
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2014/04/25 14:59:15
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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At this point can anyone bring forward what the written definition of weapon is? or is it just going for the section header?
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It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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2014/04/25 15:16:12
Subject: Grenades "counting" as weapons
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Anything under the headnig of "Weapons" is a "weapon"
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