Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/06/26 00:44:17
Subject: 1850 7E BAO Practice - Jy2's Necrons vs Brothererekose's Seer Council Deldar (Completed)
This time, he is looking for some payback. Casey is also testing out the Seer Council to see if he wants to bring it to the BAO coming up in July and this will actually be his very first time ever running it. It is a list based off of Alex Fennel's LVO-winning Seer Council Deldar list and is a proven tournament-winner of a list....that is, if you know how to run it properly. That will be key to this matchup. Normally, the seer council is a tough challenge for my Necrons, but if the general isn't proficient with it, I might be able to squeak out the win. Otherwise, I am going to be in for tough, tough fight against a very good army.
Farseer - Shard of Anarais, jetbike, RoWarding and Wit, jetbike
Farseer - Stone of Anath'len, jetbike, RoWarding and Wit, jetbike, singing spear
8x Warlocks on Jetbikes
5x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatters, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields
5x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatters, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields
5x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatters, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields
5x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatters, Holo-fields
This will be the very first game for the both of us running the new BAO 2014 missions. Before today, I have not even seen those missions yet. We did score the Maelstrom points at the end of the game turn. However, we did make a mistake and drew Tactical Objectives at the beginning of each player's turn as opposed to the beginning of the game turn.
Bonuses - First Blood, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, 1-pt each
1. I am going 2nd. I have the last say both in the Primary and the Secondary missions.
2. He doesn't have any guns that can seriously threaten my skimmers.
3. My strategy of ignoring the deathstar and focusing on taking out his support units (i.e. the troops) is tried-&-true.
4. No wraithknights. Thank goodness.
5. I have the experience edge over my opponent. This is his first time running the seer council.
6. I am arguably a more tactical player than my opponent.
7. He's going to find out just how tough those bargelords on chariots are.
8. Wraiths and bargelords will limit the movement of his wave serpents. I will apply my strategy of Positional Dominance over my opponent. If I can control his movement, then I should be able to wrack up those Maelstrom points at the very least.
9. Tesla destructors are the perfect weapons against Eldar wave serpents. I have not had a game yet where my shooting hasn't thoroughly trashed my opponent's transports (not including land raiders).
10. My bargelords are due for a breakout game. Hopefully, it happens here.
Top 10 Reasons Why Eldar Will Win.
1. Invisibility.
2. Fortune.
3. Friggin' Hit-&-Run on the fastest deathstar in the damn game.
4. Eldar mobility can actually match up with mine quite well.
5. I won't be getting jink saves against his shooting.
6. His seer council will limit the movement of my army. He can play the Positional Dominance game just as well as me, maybe better even.
7. Objective Secured wave serpents that start off on the table whereas my OS troops have to start off in Reserves.
8. Wraiths may be a liability in this game as they give up extra VP's. Without the Destroyer Lord there, my opponent can easily kill them (my wraiths) off with shooting.
9. My opponent will get the alpha-strike against me. He has a much better chance to pick up First Blood than me.
10. Perhaps I am under-estimating his experience. He is, after all, a long-time Eldar player and does browse the online forums. Perhaps he is more attuned to the theories and strategies of the seer council than I give him credit for. Oh well, I shall soon find out.
Eldar:
a. Turn 1 - Knowing that the 2 Cmd. Barges and 3 Annhi-Barges are too tough for my Wave Serpents's STR7 shots, I intend to nab a Wraith (or both!) unit as First Blood instead. Four Serpents ought to destroy 5 Wraiths in one salvo. I'll simply have to endure Barge shooting.
b. All that Quantum Shielding means I need to use the really large footprint of the Jetstar to get multi-assaults, with all those Witchblades. I'll have to endure a round of shooting before the jetbikes' range gets those AV13s. With Invis and/or Fortune I'm not worried about the Jetstar.
c. Weather the Barge's Tesla shooting and use the Twin-Link goofery of WaveSerpents when the NightScythes come in. Once downed, little units of Necron Warriors ought to be easily mopped up.
d. I haven't forgot the Maelstrom TAC aspect! WaveSs have enough mobility to get around. If needed, the DireAvengers inside could get out, but I plan to keep 'em in as much as I can.
e. If I can I will go first, giving the 'crons only one turn to shoot my WaveSs so they'll be healthy enough to take on the NightScythes. Jinking won't matter with this intent, as I'll be Snap Shooting at his fliers anyway, Turn 2.
f. The Swooping Hawks. A sure Objective grabbing mechanism.
Seer council turbo-boosts. My opponent is playing it somewhat more conservatively due to his relative inexperience with the seer council.
BTW, assume every turn that Fortune and Invisibility goes off on the Seer Council unless otherwise noted.
He fires all of his serpents and take out 1 unit of wraiths for an Eldar First Blood.
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
My crons spread out. The way to play against the seer council (and other fast deathstars like the beastpack) is to spread out to deny the multi-charge (or at least to minimize it). You also want him to commit to 1 position or another. That is how you "control" the movement of deathstar armies.
The combined shooting of my barges wrecks 1 serpent despite 3+ holo-fielded cover.
Finally, both of my bargelords turbo-boost.
Wraiths run. I'm trying to force my opponent to commit to 1 flank or the other.
At the end of the turn, I believe my opponent gets 1 maelstrom objective for being on an objective (his seer council) and I get 1 for being on an objective as well (my annihilation barge), though my memory of the maelstrom objectives is somewhat foggy.
Eldar 2
Spoiler:
Both of Casey's reserves come in.
His Swooping Hawks drop the bomb on my wraiths but does nada.
I make a mistake here, and it just may be a costly one. I under-estimate the distance of his seer council and they go after my Warlord. Instead of going for one of the my units on the flanks, he is going for my Warlord in the middle. This will give the seer council great board control.
Serpents maneuver to try to take out my wraiths, which would give my opponent another Scouring VP.
Wraiths survive Eldar shooting with 2 models left (with 1W on one of them). I guess what saved them was because there was 1 less serpent shooting.
The council then makes the assault. I issue a challenge and the Baron accepts.
Fortunately for me, my Overlord makes his saves and S3 witch blades, even if they do have Armourbane, are not very effect against AV13 (my opponent needs to roll a 10 just to glance!).
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
3 of my flyers come in. I am trying to get his troops off of one of his Maelstrom objectives. It won't be an easy feat as I have to kill off 3 units - 1 wave serpent, the Kabalite warriors and the Swooping Hawks - in order to do so.
I disembark my warriors to help out.
Bargelord goes after the avengers to try to deny my opponent his Objective #2.
Barges continue to spread out in anticipation of the seer council. They will go after the wave serpent.
Wraiths go to claim one of my Maelstrom Objectives.
Shooting with all 3 barges only manage to take off 1HP from the serpent due to a combination of not rolling enough 6's to hit and 3+ cover for my opponent.
My shooting here is full of fail as well. I only manage to take off 1HP from the serpent despite 3 flyers shooting at it. Necron warriors then only manage to kill 2 or 3 warriors with rapid-fire gauss. However, it is not all a lost cause as the Kabalite warriors fail morale and then run off the table!
Well, at least my OS troops are denying him that objective.
Bargelord shoots at the avengers and somehow manage to kill 4 with teslas! Uh oh....not good! That just made the assault a more difficult one....
....but I make it anyways.
I take him out and thus deny my opponent both of his Maelstrom objectives this turn.
Things go bad for my Warlord in combat as the seer council manages to pen his ship and knock off 2 HP's. At least he is still alive.
And then my opponent succesfully Hit-&-Runs out of combat....
This turn, I believe I achieve 1 Maelstrom VP (wraiths on an objective) whereas my opponent gets none. I am up 2-1 on the Secondary Maelstrom.
Eldar 3
Spoiler:
Wave serpent goes after rear armor.
The seer council prepares for a multi-assault.
I catch a HUGE break here as my opponent fails to cast BOTH Fortune and Invisibility.
Swooping hawks go back in reserves.
Serpent shooting takes off 2 HP's from one of my flyers as well as destroys its gun and glances the other flyer.
Despite my wraiths being there, the wave serpent moves flat-out to grab a Maestrom objective.
Finally, the seer council assaults.
My opponents gets 1 Maelstrom VP for destroying an enemy unit (my annihilation barge). He also takes down my Warlord and tries his best to surround it. This is so my Warlord will have no room to get back up.
Here, we have a little debate. My opponent is flabbergasted that my bargelord is able to get back up. He asks how big is the marker that is put down when an Ever-living unit goes down. I tell him that we Necron players normally play it as the model itself is the marker (or that the marker is basically the size of the model). Since the model here is a vehicle, it has a much larger footprint for determining how far it can stand back up than a model that is on foot. Therefore, it is much harder to try to surround a bargelord than it is a normal Necron lord (or Destroyer Lord).
So what do you think? Did I play it right, or did I take advantage of my poor opponent?
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
I get ready to take out his serpent. My last flyer comes in and I disembark my warriors. They will run to contest the objective if necessary. BTW, this objective is a Tactical Objective to the both of us.
As an opponent, I am a nice guy. But as a general in the game, I am as vicious as they come. That serpent must die!
Warlord goes after the 3rd wave serpent.
I mean to end the game after this turn.
BTW, the way you beat the seer council ISN'T by beating the seer council. It is by beating their support units and that is exactly what I aim to do.
I take out the serpent by shooting it in the arse.
Warriors then rapid-fire the heck out of those avengers.
I kill the other serpent as well and reduce the dires inside to just 1 lone survivor.
Wraiths then make the assault. Surprisingly, I fail to kill him.
However, my wraiths are within range of the Tactical Objective and the dire avenger is out of range to contest.
Warlord charges the last serpent....
....it doesn't stand a chance. Last wave serpent down. 3 avengers die in the explosion.
I also claim my 2nd Tactical Objective this turn, which was either to kill an enemy unit or to claim Objective #1 (which my warriors are on).
Oh, I forgot....the avenger then runs away.
Finally, my bargelord charges and kills the last avenger.
It is a brutal turn for my opponent. I have basically secured the win for my crons this turn, mainly by ignoring his deathstar. Now all he has left is his deathstar, the Swooping hawks and 1 lone avenger stuck in combat with my 2 wraiths.
This turn, I also grab both of my Tactical Objectives. My opponent only gets 1 (kill an enemy unit). I am now up 4-2 on the Secondary.
Eldar 4
Spoiler:
Swooping hawks come in.
Seer council goes for....I don't really care. At this point, they won't really make much of a difference IMO. At least not without any OS troops left.
Hawks manage only to kill 1 warrior. They then battle focus, hiding his Exarch behind the ruins.
The seer council assaults and kills both my Warlord and the unit of 5 warriors.
At least my opponent gets my Warlord.
I also finish off his last dire avenger with my wraiths.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
This will be the last turn as the store is closing and the battle has already been decided.
I zip around grabbing almost all of the objectives (with the exception of the objective that the seer council is on). My bargelord heads in their direction to give them something to play with.
The rest of my army prepares to take out the Swooping hawks while grabbing objectives as well.
Nope, I don't quite finish off his Swooping hawks. I forget about the the lone Exarch hiding behind the ruins.
I take 5 out of the 6 Scouring objectives. Casey takes 1 with his seer council. I also get another Tactical Objective this turn (one of the objectives) to go up 5-2 on the Secondary. However, since we played the Secondary wrong (we both didn't determine the Tactical Objectives at the beginning of the game turn), I am going to call the Secondary a draw. I also get Linebreaker (my bargelord). My opponent gets First Blood (wraiths) and Slay the Warlord. Necrons win it 5-2.
Crushing Victory to the Metallic Dead - Necrons!!!
Thanks for the game Casey. I believe there are 2 main reasons why I won in this matchup.
1. Serpent-spam mechdar does not match up well against AV13-spam. Necron vehicles can take out wave serpents better than wave serpents can take out Necron vehicles. The results of this battle are telling. Casey only took out 2 of my vehicles (an AB and my Warlord) and only through assault by the seer council whereas I decimated not only all of his vehicles, but all of his OS troops as well by the end of Turn 3. In order for Eldar to deal with Necron AV13-spam, you need either the Seer Council doing multi-assaults or wraithknights (or both!).
2. I have the experience edge. I've played against the seer council many times before (though this was back in 6E). I've also played against deathstar armies many times as well (I also play deathstar armies myself). I understand how they work and how to play against them. That was why I wasn't too concerned when my opponent got both Invisibility or Fortune. I never really intended to go after the seer council anyways as long as he presented to me other "targets".
On the other hand, I am not sure whether my opponent has played against an army quite like mine.
I am thinking that there just may be a change in the new Seer Council builds. The way to beat the seer council - actually, the way to beat most deathstars - is to ignore the deathstar itself and to go after the supporting units. Thus, I think the new Seer Council builds could be de-emphasizing on the deathstar itself and starting to emphasize on more and better complementary support units. Go with a smaller seer council and then add wave serpents, windrider jetbikes and wraithknights for a strong foundation that can still function properly without the seer council.
Eldar: (by Brothererekose)
Given that I went first and a first turn assault isn't legal, I think I did just fine with the DeathStar. I used them to assault the Warlord Turn 2, center table There was *not* an opportunity for a multi-assault at that time. I *might* have been better off directing all attacks against the Overlord, instead of his barge. I think the odds were against me in both cases, needing 10s to Glance or whittling my way through 2+ saves.
I actually did study up on Jim's list. That's why I didn't waste Serpent shots on the Annihilation Barges.
I got out played. Jim did exactly what I have read in many a forum: ignore or tarpit the DeathStar and wipe out all else. The formula for beating Serpent spam is simple and Jim executed it well. By the end of Turn 3, I didn't have much left.
My mistakes:
The rolls for Psy-powers might've been better chosen. I had the Warlocks stay on the Rituals table, but I successfully cast Invis&Fortune 3 outta 4 times. We discussed before rolling for powers that he as the owning player could direct a Psychic Shriek shot at his Barge instead of the Overlord.
I suppose some Biomancy?
The Kabalites. While 3 troops on that turn's objective sounds good, I'm wondering if they might've been more effective table East, my left flank.
I don't wanna claim, "Bad-llst match up" as that's a cop-out for being bad general. But five AV13 vehicles is a tough road-to-hoe with STR 7. Still, I got out played.
Hat's off to Jim.
Thanks for the game.
This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2014/07/01 22:38:33
A very good test. Looks a lot like Fennell's list from the LVO.
Can't wait.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2014/06/26 00:49:02
Subject: 1850 7E BAO Practice - Jy2's Necrons vs Brothererekose's Seer Council Deldar
Very solid list. Of course with what it's based on. Think the SeerStar will still do well in 7th. I don't think it necessarily will be the best list, but it will definitely hold it's own. It's mobility and multiaddault a is what will keep it alive.
Unfortunately, I think his inexperience with the list may be a problem, but it should still be enjoyable to read.
Zagman wrote: Very solid list. Of course with what it's based on. Think the SeerStar will still do well in 7th. I don't think it necessarily will be the best list, but it will definitely hold it's own. It's mobility and multiaddault a is what will keep it alive.
Unfortunately, I think his inexperience with the list may be a problem, but it should still be enjoyable to read.
Actually, I think it is even better in this edition than in last. Wave serpents have gotten much better now than before, and the seer council only needs to get off 1 or 2 key powers with all the warp dice that they would be getting.
Also, in this game, my opponent gets both Fortune and Invisibility for his farseers. This is probably as optimized as the Seer Council can get in terms of psychic powers in this edition.
1. I am going 2nd. I have the last say both in the Primary and the Secondary missions.
2. He doesn't have any guns that can seriously threaten my skimmers.
3. My strategy of ignoring the deathstar and focusing on taking out his support units (i.e. the troops) is tried-&-true.
4. No wraithknights. Thank goodness.
5. I have the experience edge over my opponent. This is his first time running the seer council.
6. I am arguably a more tactical player than my opponent.
7. He's going to find out just how tough those bargelords on chariots are.
8. Wraiths and bargelords will limit the movement of his wave serpents. I will apply my strategy of Positional Dominance over my opponent. If I can control his movement, then I should be able to wrack up those Maelstrom points at the very least.
9. Tesla destructors are the perfect weapons against Eldar wave serpents. I have not had a game yet where my shooting hasn't thoroughly trashed my opponent's transports (not including land raiders).
10. My bargelords are due for a breakout game. Hopefully, it happens here.
Top 10 Reasons Why Eldar Will Win.
1. Invisibility.
2. Fortune.
3. Friggin' Hit-&-Run on the fastest deathstar in the damn game.
4. Eldar mobility can actually match up with mine quite well.
5. I won't be getting jink saves against his shooting.
6. His seer council will limit the movement of my army. He can play the Positional Dominance game just as well as me, maybe better even.
7. Objective Secured wave serpents that start off on the table whereas my OS troops have to start off in Reserves.
8. Wraiths may be a liability in this game as they give up extra VP's. Without the Destroyer Lord there, my opponent can easily kill them (my wraiths) off with shooting.
9. My opponent will get the alpha-strike against me. He has a much better chance to pick up First Blood than me.
10. Perhaps I am under-estimating his experience. He is, after all, a long-time Eldar player and does browse the online forums. Perhaps he is more attuned to the theories and strategies of the seer council than I give him credit for. Oh well, I shall soon find out soon enough.
It already happened. But my style of narrative is, especially in my Pre-game thoughts, from the perspective that the game is about to happen. After all, the Pre-game thoughts are supposed to be my thoughts about the matchups before the game occurs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/26 02:59:07
Also dammit I wanna play you jy2! apparently i need to start stalking ur so-cal trips. Admittedly my BAO list is not built yet but dammit! still need to play you to get more experience.
Think eldar will have it, but I disagree with jet council being as good/better. I won my last 6th tournie running them and played like a moron (3 months of rust saw me putting WS's beside TAC marines with grenades). In 6th powers were extremely reliable, I always had 2 sources of 2+ saves with fortune back up plus the other lock powers to throw around.
Avg 17 die per turn with this army, 10 for fortune/invis. 3 more for prescience (w/o presc they don't hit particularly hard), only leaves 4 for protect and conceal. "But Invis!!!" Yes, but most death stars have invis available now as well, so kind of a wash.
In 7th there is a much larger chance you fail one or more powers, and when that happens your going to lose a chunk of bikes. Now this isn't to say jetcouncil isn't good, it's still great, but in terms of a multiday multi round tourny your chances of failing/getting denied/not rolling the right powers is going to be to large to to be comfortable with.
It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
Voltaire
2014/06/26 17:13:52
Subject: 1850 7E BAO Practice - Jy2's Necrons vs Brothererekose's Seer Council Deldar
Also dammit I wanna play you jy2! apparently i need to start stalking ur so-cal trips. Admittedly my BAO list is not built yet but dammit! still need to play you to get more experience.
Next time then. I usually go down to SoCal twice a year, once in the summer and once around Oct. or so. I'll usually post on the Find a Game Forum when I do.
Dash2021 wrote: Think eldar will have it, but I disagree with jet council being as good/better. I won my last 6th tournie running them and played like a moron (3 months of rust saw me putting WS's beside TAC marines with grenades). In 6th powers were extremely reliable, I always had 2 sources of 2+ saves with fortune back up plus the other lock powers to throw around.
Avg 17 die per turn with this army, 10 for fortune/invis. 3 more for prescience (w/o presc they don't hit particularly hard), only leaves 4 for protect and conceal. "But Invis!!!" Yes, but most death stars have invis available now as well, so kind of a wash.
In 7th there is a much larger chance you fail one or more powers, and when that happens your going to lose a chunk of bikes. Now this isn't to say jetcouncil isn't good, it's still great, but in terms of a multiday multi round tourny your chances of failing/getting denied/not rolling the right powers is going to be to large to to be comfortable with.
We'll find out soon enough how it is. I'm pretty sure people will be running it at the major tournaments like the BAO and Nova which are coming up soon enough.
BTW, there was actually 1 turn in our game where Casey failed to cast BOTH Invisibility AND Fortune. Too bad I didn't have the resources to take advantage of it at that point.
There wasnt an option for both of them to lose, so I picked draw haha
Yeah, a lot of people are NOT going to like them in competitive play, as they are probably the 2 non-Imperial armies who got buffed the most. They were already top-tier back in 6th and now they've gotten even better?!?
Sasori wrote: I'm going to go with Necrons on this one.
The number one enemy to the evolving meta of Necrons-IMO is the Wraithknight, which is not present.
Those Bargelords are likely going to eat 2 serpents a turn (After the First), and The Nightscythes are going to have free reign.
I must admit that as a Necron player, I do hate those wraithknights. However, in almost all of my games against them so far, I've managed to kill the WK's.
Then again, I haven't faced the seer council supported by WK's yet, at least not with my Necrons. It's a tough battle but at least I can kill those MSU jetbike units easily enough. So it's either deal with the seer council supported by tough, OS wave serpents or deal with the seer council with the S10 WK's but weak, fragile jetbike troops. Both presents its own set of challenges.
It will be interesting to see how competitive eldar/dark eldar can be in major events without seer council or beast pack. I myself tend to gravitate towards a Death Star with wraithguard as I feel some sort of tough unit gives the other units breathing room (and I like that the wraithguard are OS too).
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
mortetvie wrote: It will be interesting to see how competitive eldar/dark eldar can be in major events without seer council or beast pack. I myself tend to gravitate towards a Death Star with wraithguard as I feel some sort of tough unit gives the other units breathing room (and I like that the wraithguard are OS too).
I'm not sure the Beast pack is going anywhere. The reason I think the seer councils are on the down swing is the points: every loss is 55points worth of offense, plus a warp charge. It will be interesting to see why jy2 couldn't capitalize on that failure, as if he had been able to direct any fire at the council (guessing they were locked in combat or the eldar player did the smart thing and turbos away) he could have effectively ended the game.
The difference between jet seers and beast packs is that beasts can absorb a turn of fire w/out powers and still come out with an effective unit, thanks to multi wound models. Warlocks only being one wound is what makes them undesirable w/out buffs. Wraithguard based D stars suffer from the same issue. Guardian blobs w/a beat stick (like the vect star Frankie at frontline runs) work because you force your opponent to focus fire into a very low priority, low point value squad. Here psychic defenses are just icing on the cake, cause the only thing better than forcing your opponent to fire at an otherwise low priority target is to make him have to do it every turn.
As far as tournaments go, I'm sure jetcouncils will be present but they won't be dominating the way they did in 6th. Again, the jetcouncil isn't suddenly bad, it's just not the obnoxious win button it used to be. Those who do well with it will do well do to their play, not because they happen to own jet bikes and have an eldar codex.
2014/06/26 23:35:50
Subject: 1850 7E BAO Practice - Jy2's Necrons vs Brothererekose's Seer Council Deldar
I dunno, I don't think the Beastpack or the Vect-star is that durable without Fortune or invisibility or some form of psychic support because there are a lot of S6+ shooting that can be directed their way that also can ignore cover. Also, Barrage weapons can pose a problem as well.
Regardless, time will tell, I guess.
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
mortetvie wrote: I dunno, I don't think the Beastpack or the Vect-star is that durable without Fortune or invisibility or some form of psychic support because there are a lot of S6+ shooting that can be directed their way that also can ignore cover. Also, Barrage weapons can pose a problem as well.
Regardless, time will tell, I guess.
In regards to the beasts: I was responding from my phone so I'll try and clarify that a bit now. Beast packs have the wounds to soak a round of fire w/out buffs (27 or so depending on how you make the unit), and even those deaths aren't that big a deal points wise (12-15 depending on who dies). Every death in the jet council hurts, and costs big. So while both have taken a blow to suitability visa vi psychic powers being less reliable, it is significanlty worse for the council: One failed save = 50ish points lost vs 12/15. You have to suffer 4-5 unsaved wounds on the beast pack to equal one unsaved wound on the council.
Vect-star......doesn't really matter. The guardians have to survive long enough to get boss into assault. After that the man does what the man does. One/two turns of some sort of def psychic powers should be plenty for that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/27 00:53:42
It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
Voltaire
2014/06/27 04:33:47
Subject: 1850 7E BAO Practice - Jy2's Necrons vs Brothererekose's Seer Council Deldar
I definitely see the Seerstar being weakened somewhat overall.
That one game you don't get Fortune of or Get off invisibility or they shut you down with a denial and are able to hit that unit is gonna suck harder than it use to now that it's own power plant basically.
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/06/27 06:46:26
Subject: Re:1850 7E BAO Practice - Jy2's Necrons vs Brothererekose's Seer Council Deldar
Largo39 wrote: Also dammit I wanna play you jy2! apparently i need to start stalking ur so-cal trips. Admittedly my BAO list is not built yet but dammit! still need to play you to get more experience.
When you get it built, I want more practice for BAO. PM me to schedule a game (nearly anytime) as I have summer off.
"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.
"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013
That is a super good idea, will do. U going to the GE in july? im hoping to convince them to at least do the BAO scenarios, so we get some practice with that. But yeah definitely at some point next month we'll have a practice game or 2, BAO will be my first major tournament so i wanna prepare a bit (and make myself cheat sheets!)
Surprisingly enough my list is finally changing! sort of, mostly just making room to add AM allies so i get more accurate and devastating barrage, I played a demon guy finally in june and my lack of just straight dakka really hurt me offensively against him.
Im still keeping the bikes + 3 pod combo, since OS pods are just sooo useful, just also adding room for some wyverns, OS chimeras, and a sicaran. Hence being no longer built, let alone painted lol.
Largo39 wrote: That is a super good idea, will do. U going to the GE in july?
Short of another drinking binge and a rematch with that grizzly, yeah, I intend to grace GE with my presence come the next rtt.
Largo39 wrote: im hoping to convince them to at least do the BAO scenarios, so we get some practice with that. But yeah definitely at some point next month we'll have a practice game or 2, BAO will be my first major tournament so i wanna prepare a bit (and make myself cheat sheets!)
Definitely. I'll send you a PM.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/27 17:03:43
"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.
"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013
Sorry, but I didn't get a chance to work on the report today. However, I did get a chance to go to Frontline and have 2 incredibly tough battles against Grant Theft Auto and his Deer Council Deldar.
I will get to responding to comments and the actual report tomorrow. For now, I will leave you with Casey's Pre-game thoughts:
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS:
Eldar:
a. Turn 1 - Knowing that the 2 Cmd. Barges and 3 Annhi-Barges are too tough for my Wave Serpents's STR7 shots, I intend to nab a Wraith (or both!) unit as First Blood instead. Four Serpents ought to destroy 5 Wraiths in one salvo. I'll simply have to endure Barge shooting.
b. All that Quantum Shielding means I need to use the really large footprint of the Jetstar to get multi-assaults, with all those Witchblades. I'll have to endure a round of shooting before the jetbikes' range gets those AV13s. With Invis and/or Fortune I'm not worried about the Jetstar.
c. Weather the Barge's Tesla shooting and use the Twin-Link goofery of WaveSerpents when the NightScythes come in. Once downed, little units of Necron Warriors ought to be easily mopped up.
d. I haven't forgot the Maelstrom TAC aspect! WaveSs have enough mobility to get around. If needed, the DireAvengers inside could get out, but I plan to keep 'em in as much as I can.
e. If I can I will go first, giving the 'crons only one turn to shoot my WaveSs so they'll be healthy enough to take on the NightScythes. Jinking won't matter with this intent, as I'll be Snap Shooting at his fliers anyway, Turn 2.
f. The Swooping Hawks. A sure Objective grabbing mechanism.
mortetvie wrote: It will be interesting to see how competitive eldar/dark eldar can be in major events without seer council or beast pack. I myself tend to gravitate towards a Death Star with wraithguard as I feel some sort of tough unit gives the other units breathing room (and I like that the wraithguard are OS too).
IMO they will still be good, though a pure DE army will be more prone to rock-papers-scissors type of matchups. But for Eldar, just your wave-serpent-spam+wraithknights is already a very competitive foundation for any Eldar list.
mortetvie wrote: It will be interesting to see how competitive eldar/dark eldar can be in major events without seer council or beast pack. I myself tend to gravitate towards a Death Star with wraithguard as I feel some sort of tough unit gives the other units breathing room (and I like that the wraithguard are OS too).
I'm not sure the Beast pack is going anywhere. The reason I think the seer councils are on the down swing is the points: every loss is 55points worth of offense, plus a warp charge. It will be interesting to see why jy2 couldn't capitalize on that failure, as if he had been able to direct any fire at the council (guessing they were locked in combat or the eldar player did the smart thing and turbos away) he could have effectively ended the game.
The difference between jet seers and beast packs is that beasts can absorb a turn of fire w/out powers and still come out with an effective unit, thanks to multi wound models. Warlocks only being one wound is what makes them undesirable w/out buffs. Wraithguard based D stars suffer from the same issue. Guardian blobs w/a beat stick (like the vect star Frankie at frontline runs) work because you force your opponent to focus fire into a very low priority, low point value squad. Here psychic defenses are just icing on the cake, cause the only thing better than forcing your opponent to fire at an otherwise low priority target is to make him have to do it every turn.
As far as tournaments go, I'm sure jetcouncils will be present but they won't be dominating the way they did in 6th. Again, the jetcouncil isn't suddenly bad, it's just not the obnoxious win button it used to be. Those who do well with it will do well do to their play, not because they happen to own jet bikes and have an eldar codex.
Whether buffed or nerfed, they are both still difficult to play against, especially if you don't have the alpha-strike potential to cripple them on Turn 1.
I think the seer council can still dominate at the tournament level. The Eldar codex is so strong and even the supporting units are really good. In any case, time will tell as to how well the seer council will do.
mortetvie wrote: I dunno, I don't think the Beastpack or the Vect-star is that durable without Fortune or invisibility or some form of psychic support because there are a lot of S6+ shooting that can be directed their way that also can ignore cover. Also, Barrage weapons can pose a problem as well.
Regardless, time will tell, I guess.
Same weaknesses as last edition. No change in that regards, with the exception of Invisibility making them even harder to kill in this edition if they get it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: I definitely see the Seerstar being weakened somewhat overall.
That one game you don't get Fortune of or Get off invisibility or they shut you down with a denial and are able to hit that unit is gonna suck harder than it use to now that it's own power plant basically.
That is no different from previous edition if you don't get off (or if you don't get) Fortune. Same bad luck, same consequences.
However, the difference in this edition is that the supporting units - the wave serpents, the wraithknights, the resiliency of vehicles, etc. - have gotten better, thus compensating for any "nerfs" to the deathstars themselves. So whereas some may see the seer council as being nerfed (BTW, I am not one of them), overall, the army build has stayed the same or maybe even better due to the buffs to the rest of the army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/30 17:55:59
Eagerly awaiting the updates, have subscribed your battle reports are great. However, please , please stop setting soda on top of your gaming table it drives me crazy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/30 23:20:01
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/06/30 23:40:30
Subject: 1850 7E BAO Practice - Jy2's Necrons vs Brothererekose's Seer Council Deldar
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
3000
4000 
Thousand Sons 4000+
