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Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





That one just comes down to whether you interpret the bit about the 'end of their movement phase' as meaning their [the IC's] movement phase or their [the IC's army's movement phase. 


There is only 1 movement phase per turn. Check the turn sequence. The ICs movement phase is their army's movement phase as there is literally no other movement phase it could be.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot




Vior'la Sept

 FlingitNow wrote:
That one just comes down to whether you interpret the bit about the 'end of their movement phase' as meaning their [the IC's] movement phase or their [the IC's army's movement phase. 


There is only 1 movement phase per turn. Check the turn sequence. The ICs movement phase is their army's movement phase as there is literally no other movement phase it could be.


Ok, so then does it work, can O'Vesa be joined last?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Commander_Farsight wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
That one just comes down to whether you interpret the bit about the 'end of their movement phase' as meaning their [the IC's] movement phase or their [the IC's army's movement phase. 


There is only 1 movement phase per turn. Check the turn sequence. The ICs movement phase is their army's movement phase as there is literally no other movement phase it could be.


Ok, so then does it work, can O'Vesa be joined last?


Of course it doesn't work. You are gaming the system and exploiting a bit of imprecise language to support a roundabout and silly procedure to have something happen that is obviously not RAI.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





col_impact wrote:
 Commander_Farsight wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
That one just comes down to whether you interpret the bit about the 'end of their movement phase' as meaning their [the IC's] movement phase or their [the IC's army's movement phase. 


There is only 1 movement phase per turn. Check the turn sequence. The ICs movement phase is their army's movement phase as there is literally no other movement phase it could be.


Ok, so then does it work, can O'Vesa be joined last?


Of course it doesn't work. You are gaming the system and exploiting a bit of imprecise language to support a roundabout and silly procedure to have something happen that is obviously not RAI.

O'vesa is an IC, how it it not RAI to let him join a unit
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot




Vior'la Sept

your right its RAW
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




col_impact wrote:
 Commander_Farsight wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
That one just comes down to whether you interpret the bit about the 'end of their movement phase' as meaning their [the IC's] movement phase or their [the IC's army's movement phase. 


There is only 1 movement phase per turn. Check the turn sequence. The ICs movement phase is their army's movement phase as there is literally no other movement phase it could be.


Ok, so then does it work, can O'Vesa be joined last?


Of course it doesn't work. You are gaming the system and exploiting a bit of imprecise language to support a roundabout and silly procedure to have something happen that is obviously not RAI.

So which units will you let the mc IC join? Any?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 CrownAxe wrote:
col_impact wrote:
 Commander_Farsight wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
That one just comes down to whether you interpret the bit about the 'end of their movement phase' as meaning their [the IC's] movement phase or their [the IC's army's movement phase. 


There is only 1 movement phase per turn. Check the turn sequence. The ICs movement phase is their army's movement phase as there is literally no other movement phase it could be.


Ok, so then does it work, can O'Vesa be joined last?


Of course it doesn't work. You are gaming the system and exploiting a bit of imprecise language to support a roundabout and silly procedure to have something happen that is obviously not RAI.

O'vesa is an IC, how it it not RAI to let him join a unit


There is no problem with O'vesa joining a unit if there are no ICs on there. Otherwise we get unit with ICs joined to a MC.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





col_impact wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
col_impact wrote:
 Commander_Farsight wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
That one just comes down to whether you interpret the bit about the 'end of their movement phase' as meaning their [the IC's] movement phase or their [the IC's army's movement phase. 


There is only 1 movement phase per turn. Check the turn sequence. The ICs movement phase is their army's movement phase as there is literally no other movement phase it could be.


Ok, so then does it work, can O'Vesa be joined last?


Of course it doesn't work. You are gaming the system and exploiting a bit of imprecise language to support a roundabout and silly procedure to have something happen that is obviously not RAI.

O'vesa is an IC, how it it not RAI to let him join a unit


There is no problem with O'vesa joining a unit if there are no ICs on there. Otherwise we get unit with ICs joined to a MC.


The Ics aren't joining an MC, an MC is joining an infantry squad
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 CrownAxe wrote:
col_impact wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
col_impact wrote:
 Commander_Farsight wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
That one just comes down to whether you interpret the bit about the 'end of their movement phase' as meaning their [the IC's] movement phase or their [the IC's army's movement phase. 


There is only 1 movement phase per turn. Check the turn sequence. The ICs movement phase is their army's movement phase as there is literally no other movement phase it could be.


Ok, so then does it work, can O'Vesa be joined last?


Of course it doesn't work. You are gaming the system and exploiting a bit of imprecise language to support a roundabout and silly procedure to have something happen that is obviously not RAI.

O'vesa is an IC, how it it not RAI to let him join a unit


There is no problem with O'vesa joining a unit if there are no ICs on there. Otherwise we get unit with ICs joined to a MC.


The Ics aren't joining an MC, an MC is joining an infantry squad


And if I sequence the joining one way it works, and if I sequence it the other way it doesn't work. Yup, crossing over into the land of silly and arbitrary because GW wasn't precise in their language. "Cannot join" needs to read "cannot be joined to".
   
Made in qa
Regular Dakkanaut





It can't happen, anyone attempting to do this wants a nearly unstoppable unit in an already over powered army.
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot




Vior'la Sept

Lshowell wrote:
It can't happen, anyone attempting to do this wants a nearly unstoppable unit in an already over powered army.


Thats an opinion, not helpful to the thread
   
Made in qa
Regular Dakkanaut





Its an opinion, the facts have already been told to you... Can't join an mc, and you can't say he joins last, person a joins person b same time person b joins person a
So I'll repeat. You can not do it. Your combo is illegal. Sorry

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/06 01:20:44


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Lshowell wrote:
Its an opinion, the facts have already been told to you... Can't join an mc, and you can't say he joins last, person a joins person b same time person b joins person a
So I'll repeat. You can not do it. Your combo is illegal. Sorry


Correct you cannot join an MC.

However, at Deployment, everybody but O'Vesa joins Aun'Va's unit. At the end of Turn 1 Movement phase, O'Vesa joins. Nobody joined a unit containing an MC, and O'Vesa has no restriction on joining.

Furthermore, A joins B is not the same as B joins A.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/06 01:23:41


Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot




Vior'la Sept

Lshowell wrote:
Its an opinion, the facts have already been told to you... Can't join an mc, and you can't say he joins last, person a joins person b same time person b joins person a
So I'll repeat. You can not do it. Your combo is illegal. Sorry


I don't need your pity. If you actually read the thread, when the abilities happen at the same time then you have to allocate which is first and last. I'm sorry that you're going to cry about the fact that I have an unkillable deathstar.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

I wouldn't call it "unkillable". It'd be expensive and unless playing Unbound (or at a high point level) probably wouldn't be worth it.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Lshowell wrote:
Its an opinion, the facts have already been told to you... Can't join an mc, and you can't say he joins last, person a joins person b same time person b joins person a
So I'll repeat. You can not do it. Your combo is illegal. Sorry


I don't need your pity. If you actually read the thread, when the abilities happen at the same time then you have to allocate which is first and last. I'm sorry that you're going to cry about the fact that I have an unkillable deathstar.


You are gaming the system and taking advantage of GW's imprecise language when it is clear what is RAI (IC cannot be joined to MC).
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot




Vior'la Sept

col_impact wrote:
 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Lshowell wrote:
Its an opinion, the facts have already been told to you... Can't join an mc, and you can't say he joins last, person a joins person b same time person b joins person a
So I'll repeat. You can not do it. Your combo is illegal. Sorry


I don't need your pity. If you actually read the thread, when the abilities happen at the same time then you have to allocate which is first and last. I'm sorry that you're going to cry about the fact that I have an unkillable deathstar.


You are gaming the system and taking advantage of GW's imprecise language when it is clear what is RAI (IC cannot be joined to MC).


Well too bad.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

I mean heck, a Vindicare could still strip the unit of any invulnerable saves.

For example: Roll to hit with vindicare. Roll To Wound. Allocate Wound to O'Vesa. At this point we have two rules come into play - Shield-breaker and Paradox of Duality. Since it is the GK player's turn, he decides to have his special rule go first. O'Vesa loses his Riptide Shield Generator. Paradox of Duality negates the AP1 Wound.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Commander_Farsight wrote:
col_impact wrote:
 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Lshowell wrote:
Its an opinion, the facts have already been told to you... Can't join an mc, and you can't say he joins last, person a joins person b same time person b joins person a
So I'll repeat. You can not do it. Your combo is illegal. Sorry


I don't need your pity. If you actually read the thread, when the abilities happen at the same time then you have to allocate which is first and last. I'm sorry that you're going to cry about the fact that I have an unkillable deathstar.


You are gaming the system and taking advantage of GW's imprecise language when it is clear what is RAI (IC cannot be joined to MC).


Well too bad.


At any rate, it is something to check with a TO before playing at a tournament. If they allow it, then go for it, it's their party. If you can find someone to play with you that also lets you push the rules against common sense RAI then also go for it. Otherwise good luck playing against yourself.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Happyjew wrote:
Lshowell wrote:
Its an opinion, the facts have already been told to you... Can't join an mc, and you can't say he joins last, person a joins person b same time person b joins person a
So I'll repeat. You can not do it. Your combo is illegal. Sorry


Correct you cannot join an MC.

However, at Deployment, everybody but O'Vesa joins Aun'Va's unit. At the end of Turn 1 Movement phase, O'Vesa joins. Nobody joined a unit containing an MC, and O'Vesa has no restriction on joining.

Furthermore, A joins B is not the same as B joins A.


Except you now have a IC joined to a MC.

Taking only 1 definition of Join makes it work.
   
Made in fk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

Or on deployment you add all the ICs to Aun, but leave out ovesa, and at the end of first move join ovesa to the resultant unit.

Would that not get round the IC joining a MC at the same time problem?

Cheers

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops, missed the earlier post!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops, missed the earlier post!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/06 02:00:38


I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






The Facts of the rule is that you cannot join a unit that contains an MC or a Vehicle.

And then that the exception to this is ICs Who that can join.
They can join other Independent Characters, though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!


The quoted sentence make no sense and is unnecessary unless it is an exception to the denial. It is not just a hold over from the No Single model units as the quoted sentence has been re-worded from previous editions.

Even if this were not true; joining O'vesa last would still be valid as ICs join the unit, other ICs do not re-join to each other, they are all simply part of the unit, so Joining Farsight to aun'va and then O'Vesaa is just O'Vesa joining the Aun'va unit(as did Farsight, who does not re-join either the new unit, nor the other IC).

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Lshowell wrote:
It can't happen, anyone attempting to do this wants a nearly unstoppable unit in an already over powered army.


Thats an opinion, not helpful to the thread


When the rule says IC's can't join units containing MC's, why do you try to argue that they can? Is the intent not clear enough?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Commander-Farsight
I hate not being able to give page quotes any more....
If you turn to the very front of the Rule section and flick into the Section titled The Turn you will find a sub-section that is titled Sequencing.
That is the Rule which informs us how to resolve multiple Rules which are triggering at the same point in the time-line.

Damn, ninja-ed... well, I'm ill and very tired so there.

HappyJew,
Hell... I over-looked that the Paradox was Unit wide and now I am seriously wondering if I under-estimated the space popes usefulness.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/06 04:29:50


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot




Vior'la Sept

Naw wrote:
 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Lshowell wrote:
It can't happen, anyone attempting to do this wants a nearly unstoppable unit in an already over powered army.


Thats an opinion, not helpful to the thread


When the rule says IC's can't join units containing MC's, why do you try to argue that they can? Is the intent not clear enough?


If they intended to do so, then why isn't it clear? Because its obvious that you can do it

   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




If it was obvious then why does this topic come up all the time?
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





Naw wrote:
If it was obvious then why does this topic come up all the time?

Because not everyone is experienced at the game so need clarification on even simple things
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




Illinois

Naw wrote:
If it was obvious then why does this topic come up all the time?


Because people.

After a thorough reading of the RAW, it looks like so long as you say the MC IC joined last in reserves, or he actually moved to join the unit last during play, all is well. Once that MC IC joins a unit, nobody else can come in after him unless he spends one turn leaving the unit while others join and coming back to join the turn after.

It also looks like the OP can currently cheese how he wants by joining the entire Farsight command squad to Aun'Va. Too bad it only works with high AP shooting attacks...they'd get minced in CC or by torrents of regular dakka.

Bets are on for the following GW faqage:
- They make O'Vesa no longer an IC
- They state that IC rules trump MC rules.
- They make specific rules for O'Vesa to join units
- They let let anyone join MC's again (daemons and tyranids rejoice!)
- They reinforce the current silliness stated above.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/06 06:29:30


 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




PolecatEZ wrote:
Naw wrote:
If it was obvious then why does this topic come up all the time?


Because people.

After a thorough reading of the RAW, it looks like so long as you say the MC IC joined last in reserves, or he actually moved to join the unit last during play, all is well.


And you feel that this makes perfect sense, that the rule is meant to work like this??

If the intent was to not allow IC's and MC's be joined together, why do you believe that via rules bending it must be possible? I am sorry, but I do not subscribe to that way of thinking. Maybe that then makes me "less experienced".
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Idaho

"IC's can join other units. They cannot, however, join units that contain vehicles or MC's. They can join other IC's, to form a powerful Multi-character unit."


Like Kel said earlier. The second sentence has to over ride the restriction in the first, as otherwise it poses no use at all.

An IC is allowed to join other IC's... O'vessa is an IC.

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