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2014/08/01 01:50:22
Subject: Re:GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
How much of the money in sales that GW has lost have been given to Kickstarter projects instead?
If I look at my gaming monies... the amount that I spent on GW material six years ago is virtually identical to the amount that I have spent on Kickstarter and other crowdfunding sites. (Overall spending is up - I am just looking at the KS vs. GW here.)
Part of this is 'bang for my buck', and part is to support new material.
So... I have spent hundreds on Reaper Bones, More Reaper Bones, Mantic Kings of War, Stonehaven Dwarfs, Gnomes, Elves, and foldable terrain, Zombicide, Necromancer Games Pathfinder adventures, Raging Heroes Toughest Girls in the Galaxy, and HeroQuest.
And all of this is money that didn't go to GW.
Mind you, in my case I had the money because I had already stopped buying GW, but.....
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2014/08/01 01:57:09
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
The sad thing is that warmahordes is more beer and pretzels than 40k because it doesn't involve as much rules searching or guessing what the rule means.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2014/08/01 02:01:47
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Da Boss wrote: And it should be pointed out that PP have priced some people out too- I used to be a pretty contented customer of Privateer Press, but issues with the materials and the price have stopped me buying any new stuff in two years.
Yeah, that's a good point, a lot of people have pointed out that PP's models are just as expensive as GW's, which they essentially are. Also consider that by all accounts, PP and Warmahordes continue to grow. I would content GW would not have to actually lower prices if they put more effort into what they're actually producing; i.e. balanced codices, tight rules, and great sculpts. That's why, IMO, it's more of an argument for better value than better prices.
Not to derail this that much further. The difference as Wayne pointed out is that a $50 box is a one time purchase and thats really all you will ever need from that unit. The other BIG thing is PP has stated time and again that NO UNIT WILL EVER BE TAKEN OUT OF THE GAME. Meaning that the box of WGI was usable 10 years ago (during MK1) and will be usable in the future. Not on the whim of a new codex to get people to buy the new kits.....
PP has also lowered the price of every model/unit they have retooled from White Metal to Plastics, passing the material savings onto the customer.
GW I think has forgotten a lot from its early days.
Question for Wayshuba. If GW were able to secure financing to restructure their business model would it make a difference? Or in your opinion is it too little to late regardless of what the do?
You guys are also leaving out the elephant in the room: PP has shown time and time again that unlike GW they actually put a lot of time and effort into the rules and balance of their game, and in fact seem to have an opposite view of GW's "beer and pretzels" mentality (the infamous "Page 5"). I have seen that convince many people to switch over to warmahordes despite the similar pricing with GW...
I didn't bring it up because I honestly didn't think to. PP has extremely tight rules, and you can tell that they have a few technical writers on staff. They do things like play test for something like 2 years before releasing to the public. They also embrace the customers for feedback on products including their tournament rules. Hacksaw is a Press Ganger out of TN that is instrumental in creating the scenarios for their Steam Roller packets every year and they use their Press Gangers to test them out (by having tournaments and events prior to the release of the new SR for the year). They get direct feedback and adjust accordingly and surprisingly quickly.
I think the other strength they have is they use the same wording and the words mean the same thing across their rules. This is huge....when melee means melee and attack means attack its very easy to play the game RAW because that is all there is.
agnosto wrote: The sad thing is that warmahordes is more beer and pretzels than 40k because it doesn't involve as much rules searching or guessing what the rule means.
Agreed, I'm a "beer and pretzel" player, even though I think it's a terrible descriptor.
And I've started to hate 40k.. Building an army is good fun.. Sitting down to interpretation rules (formally known as gaming) is not, as such I long ago turned to bloodbowl as my only GW game till the time they sort there gak out.. Unfortunately they've given us no choice but to vote with our wallets.
"So.. If she weighs as much as a duck..." Inquisitor Monty
2014/08/01 02:12:49
Subject: Re:GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
On a personal point of discussion, I went to the local shops today and saw a few of the not price hikes. Instead of a shrinking wall of product being taken up by alternatives, there is an increasing wall of product unsold. It hasn't changed by much as the rest of the industry is pushing it out of the way.
DEADZONE is pretty good looking in person, if you got in on that KS, your getting quite a haul of gear in there. I saw some of the stuff in the flesh. Some of the guys are crap, but overall, Mantic has a really good product there.
21.00 for 1 multipart plastic hero miniature in plastic sealed container, you can see what its supposed to be on one side, then see the parts of the shrinking hero's on the other. Figure is shrinking in scale.
45.00 for a three figure set. This case a couple of shootier looking ork artillery with 5 grots in there. The other example was a couple of Ork mega armor guys.
51.00 for a vehicle. 1 was the new RG 33/ 40k version. The other was a truck with a couple of boyz with it. (truck mob) Third was a FIST team with Chimera.
75.00 for a Landraider, Ork baby Stompa, or Demony skully-thing. ( Smaller then the transformer, bigger then a Dread.)
130.00 for the transformer/ night/ elder G.I.Joe walker. (Titan of sorts.)
200.00 was larger sets such as the IG trench line/ cannon, and Necron flying castle.
THEN there was the "Battleboard." I'll just go on and say that that will be sitting around for awhile. I didn't even think they made prices like that.
While I was there, two different people walked over to the wall, took one look at a box or two and just put it back without a word.
While that is happening, The FFG wall is growing, and that new rebel ship from the 1st Star Wars movie is as impressive as hell. Its friggin Huge....
There are several other games that are taking on more wall space, as well as quite a few more Clickies that are seriously taking on some of GW's ways and means. ( Boxed games, Scenario packs, Taking on the current Superhero craze, and the quickly upcoming Guardians stuff, JLA, and Avengers/ X men cross over stuff.
There is also a couple of new larger sized kits, as well as some larger game boxes such as the JLA Vs Legion of Doom thing going on...
GW's Fantasy line here is pretty much dead. A few older kits, smaller numbers of the newer stuff... that stuff is getting pushed over under the 40K side, which is pushing into it's old space.
On the RPG front, FFG is looking pretty darned good. I still think Only War is their best yet. Star Wars is ok, but some of that is a little disheartening, and I'm not seeing them lasting very long. AND D and D is back, with a whole new line of stuff...
I am within a cross hair of buying not only an OS Redbox, but the Advanced as well. ALONG with a couple of old school D and D books, that today I almost peed myself over. Used and used well, but available.
THEN there is the resurgence of Battletech. That is looking pretty darned sweet as well, and I just want to go on record and say that my little brother needs his hindquarters kicked in for what he did to my old set of the stuff. It was a pretty substantial collection that went to wherever.
Would that shop be near Home Depot?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/01 02:34:14
Armies: Space Marines, IG, Tyranids, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar.
I am the best 40k player in my town, I always win! Of course, I am the only player of 40k in my town.
Quoting massive blocks of text for one, short, sentence, is bad forum etiquette, god (aka Legoburner) invented spoiler tags for a reason.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
How much of the money in sales that GW has lost have been given to Kickstarter projects instead?
If I look at my gaming monies... the amount that I spent on GW material six years ago is virtually identical to the amount that I have spent on Kickstarter and other crowdfunding sites. (Overall spending is up - I am just looking at the KS vs. GW here.)
Part of this is 'bang for my buck', and part is to support new material.
So... I have spent hundreds on Reaper Bones, More Reaper Bones, Mantic Kings of War, Stonehaven Dwarfs, Gnomes, Elves, and foldable terrain, Zombicide, Necromancer Games Pathfinder adventures, Raging Heroes Toughest Girls in the Galaxy, and HeroQuest.
And all of this is money that didn't go to GW.
Mind you, in my case I had the money because I had already stopped buying GW, but.....
The Auld Grump
I've been working full time for a bit over a year now. In that time I've spent ten times as much on the hobby than any previous years (I'm actually a little worried that no one else is worried about how much I'm spending) but GW are getting less than they used to when I was just throwing birthday and Christmas money at them 5 years ago.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2014/08/01 02:26:39
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
agnosto wrote: The sad thing is that warmahordes is more beer and pretzels than 40k because it doesn't involve as much rules searching or guessing what the rule means.
Agreed, I'm a "beer and pretzel" player, even though I think it's a terrible descriptor.
And I've started to hate 40k.. Building an army is good fun.. Sitting down to interpretation rules (formally known as gaming) is not, as such I long ago turned to bloodbowl as my only GW game till the time they sort there gak out.. Unfortunately they've given us no choice but to vote with our wallets.
That's where I'm at as well. I enjoy putting models together and even painting to a lesser extent but played a couple of games of 7th and wanted to pull my hair out during each psychic phase. Each turn lasted so long that I just lost interest. Other games that I play more aptly meet the "beer and pretzels" moniker (WarmaHordes, Mantic's offerings, board games).
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2014/08/01 02:32:28
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Azreal13 wrote: Quoting massive blocks of text for one, short, sentence, is bad forum etiquette, god (aka Legoburner) invented spoiler tags for a reason.
Thanks I'll keep that in mind.
Unfortunately my device doesn't like most functions of the interwebs so some things don't work as they should.
Armies: Space Marines, IG, Tyranids, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar.
I am the best 40k player in my town, I always win! Of course, I am the only player of 40k in my town.
I always liked inquisitor, never understood why it was 54mm, if they used just 28mm and a necromunda like xp and campaign system, it could have been the perfect game to lure in new customers that used miniatures from their 40k/Warhammer lines.
But nooo, sales are down just sale more of the same!
agnosto wrote: The sad thing is that warmahordes is more beer and pretzels than 40k because it doesn't involve as much rules searching or guessing what the rule means.
Agreed, I'm a "beer and pretzel" player, even though I think it's a terrible descriptor.
And I've started to hate 40k.. Building an army is good fun.. Sitting down to interpretation rules (formally known as gaming) is not, as such I long ago turned to bloodbowl as my only GW game till the time they sort there gak out.. Unfortunately they've given us no choice but to vote with our wallets.
That's where I'm at as well. I enjoy putting models together and even painting to a lesser extent but played a couple of games of 7th and wanted to pull my hair out during each psychic phase. Each turn lasted so long that I just lost interest. Other games that I play more aptly meet the "beer and pretzels" moniker (WarmaHordes, Mantic's offerings, board games).
Adding complexity does not make the game better.
Adding extraneous and frivolous additions to models does not make the hobby better.
Adding on additional price hikes only speaks of entrenchment.
GW is a game hobby company that finds itself fighting inevitability. Once a company reaches a certain level of growth that halts, it usually retrenches. GW has been in that mode for quite some time.
agnosto wrote: The sad thing is that warmahordes is more beer and pretzels than 40k because it doesn't involve as much rules searching or guessing what the rule means.
Agreed, I'm a "beer and pretzel" player, even though I think it's a terrible descriptor.
And I've started to hate 40k.. Building an army is good fun.. Sitting down to interpretation rules (formally known as gaming) is not, as such I long ago turned to bloodbowl as my only GW game till the time they sort there gak out.. Unfortunately they've given us no choice but to vote with our wallets.
That's where I'm at as well. I enjoy putting models together and even painting to a lesser extent but played a couple of games of 7th and wanted to pull my hair out during each psychic phase. Each turn lasted so long that I just lost interest. Other games that I play more aptly meet the "beer and pretzels" moniker (WarmaHordes, Mantic's offerings, board games).
Adding complexity does not make the game better.
Adding extraneous and frivolous additions to models does not make the hobby better.
Adding on additional price hikes only speaks of entrenchment.
GW is a game hobby company that finds itself fighting inevitability. Once a company reaches a certain level of growth that halts, it usually retrenches. GW has been in that mode for quite some time.
Adding Depth to a game system works.
I mean their systems were quite good and exemplary until around 2009 or so. (after 5th edition)
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/08/01 03:25:38
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
I'll take as much complexity in a game as can be shoe-horned into it.
40K is complicated.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Much, much too complicated. I love 40k and couldn't care less about Star Wars, and yet these days I play X-wing, because I can have a good time in 30 minutes.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2014/08/01 03:31:01
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I'll take as much complexity in a game as can be shoe-horned into it.
40K is complicated.
Spoiler:
Anyway. I think gw needs to learn from game designers.....
Also Video Games are basically board games on a computer.
Think about it.
Great video! Extra Credits does some great stuff. Yes, depth is great, no complexity is not. As they say, you want the most depth with the least complexity - Dreadball, Deadzone, X-Wing, DZC for example (in my experience, others like warmahordes too that I know less about) all do this so much better than 40k and not only makes them great games, it makes them better "beer and pretzels" games if you like to use that term because of the greater depth to complexity ratio. The Paradox games they mention in the video I have hundreds of hours logged in, I'm no stranger to complexity, but it has to come with a related amount of depth to justify it and 40k just doesn't. Also yeah I'm a fan of using video games for reference points, especially SC2 for balance comparisons ; p
WarOne wrote: You can have a complex game without it being complicated, but they've taken inane additions to a whole 'nother level.
For Space Wolves, aren't they adding a bypasses eternal warrior rule? 1. High power weapons insta kill heroes thanks to the "double str insta kills" rule they added. 2. Heroes get eternal warrior rule to counter high power weapons additional rule. 3. High power weapons get a new rule to bypass the hero rule, allowing them to once again insta kill heroes. /facepalm
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/08/01 04:06:55
2014/08/01 04:16:39
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
That was probably to replace jaws which they took away from us for no good reason other than because it made SW more than a mediocre army.
I do agree about the game being too complex now with rules that counteract each other and sometimes the way they're worded makes it difficult to figure out which rule wins. However, I do like the psychic phase. My only change would be not letting units summoned via psychic powers to turn around and summon other units. Also limiting psychic dice would help as I might as well not even have psychic powers if the opposing player has 20+ dispel dice and I can only cast 2-3 powers a turn.
2014/08/01 04:45:09
Subject: Re:GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Modifiers are bad because the 8 year olds that are the target audience are bad at math.
Solution. An AP system that makes no sense. A cover system that makes no sense. A wound allocation system that makes no sense.
1st edition was difficult at times because the rules were put together poorly, but they made sense, and for the most part they were intuitive. Later editions tried to streamline the game by making it more abstract, but it makes the game counter intuitive and thus overly complex....for simplicities sake.(?)
Now its too the point where they are trying to get you to play epic with full scale miniatures, the rules as they exist are just too abstract and counter intuitive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/01 04:46:42
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2014/08/01 05:37:31
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
That's where I'm at as well. I enjoy putting models together and even painting to a lesser extent but played a couple of games of 7th and wanted to pull my hair out during each psychic phase. Each turn lasted so long that I just lost interest.
In my experience, Psychic phase actually saves time compared to old system, at least for armies which have lots of psychers. It was hella-annoying in the old system to try to remember which psychic power went off in which phase, and some armies had just insane amount of them (Daemons, most notably).
Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker!
2014/08/01 05:52:07
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Backfire wrote: In my experience, Psychic phase actually saves time compared to old system, at least for armies which have lots of psychers. It was hella-annoying in the old system to try to remember which psychic power went off in which phase, and some armies had just insane amount of them (Daemons, most notably).
Yeah, the new system certainly saves time, by having psychic rules that just stop functioning the moment a psyker joins another unit...
2014/08/01 05:52:22
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Don't daemons have the longest psychic phase now due to all the record keeping with every model being a psyker, rolling for powers etc. with new ones being summoned frequantly?
2014/08/01 05:59:04
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Yonan wrote: Don't daemons have the longest psychic phase now due to all the record keeping with every model being a psyker, rolling for powers etc. with new ones being summoned frequantly?
Right.
The psychic phase can become rather lengthy. I can see no time saving here.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
I'm no accountant or finance major, so this is an actual question: could Kirby be driving GW into the ground on purpose? Developing an environment of "yes-men", funneling money to his wife, shoring up his position before scooting out on a golden parachute just before collapse? The tone he takes on in his addresses seem to indicate that nothing is wrong, that everything is going as planned. With the numbers showing what they are, perhaps they are going as planned, for his personal gain?
WH40K Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
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2014/08/01 06:24:32
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
He owns 7% of the company and driving it into the ground is worth far, far less to him than he could get if he simply announced his retirement and started selling his stock. Or got the board to agree to buy-back his stock rather than paying a dividend.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
2014/08/01 06:29:01
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
frozenwastes wrote: He owns 7% of the company and driving it into the ground is worth far, far less to him than he could get if he simply announced his retirement and started selling his stock. Or got the board to agree to buy-back his stock rather than paying a dividend.
Guess I was thinking that if he was working GW into a position where it could be reasonably bought out, he might stand to make out well from that. But an under-performing company is probably less attractive than their IP. Just let them collapse and loot their corpse, so to speak.
WH40K Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
28 successful trades in the Dakka Swap Shop! Check out my latest auction here!
2014/08/01 06:36:17
Subject: Re:GW Annual Report is Up -- Preamble confirmed true.
Anyone can still buy old LOTR miniatures from GW (they're still cheaper than Hobbit minis, or most WHFB minis) and play the game. They just don't want to. The game went derelict long before Hobbit and it's prices (which may not have been entirely GW's fault anyway) so it can't be pinned on that.
In fact, LOTR seems to perfectly conform to wishes people often make from GW mainline games:
-reasonably priced
-no silly cartoony models
-no constant power creep
-fresh ruleset with no legacy junk
Yet it no longer sells. I don't know anyone who has an army or plays the game. What gives?
For one thing, they doubled the price of basic units - first by halving the number of models in a box, and dropping the price by about 25%. Then by later raising the price by 25%. They also did similar shenigans with metal characters before finecast. Going from foot & mounted versions of characters, to splitting them for much, much more. You get the idea - all the usual pricing shenanigans.
frozenwastes wrote: He owns 7% of the company and driving it into the ground is worth far, far less to him than he could get if he simply announced his retirement and started selling his stock. Or got the board to agree to buy-back his stock rather than paying a dividend.
Guess I was thinking that if he was working GW into a position where it could be reasonably bought out, he might stand to make out well from that. But an under-performing company is probably less attractive than their IP. Just let them collapse and loot their corpse, so to speak.
Why.... why yes he is!!! And hearing about his wife allegedly being part of the IT department man.... to me it's like this.... "Sweet jeezbus honey our cash cow looks mighty peeked.... Let's have some steak yeaaaahaaaa!!!!. We have our golden ticket already when we bought most of our stock at outrageous bargains as part of my service package several years ago!!! wooooweeewooo we are so stinking rich and guess what???? We are going be even richer.
just sayin ya know....
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Also, how does one apply to be a member of the Ultramodrines? Are harsh trials involved, ones that would test my faith as a wargamer and resolve as a geek?
You must recite every rule of Dakka Dakka. BACKWARDS.
2014/08/01 06:46:10
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Yonan wrote: Don't daemons have the longest psychic phase now due to all the record keeping with every model being a psyker, rolling for powers etc. with new ones being summoned frequantly?
Yes, but previously, they did all the same stuff, it was just sprinkled around the player turn and you had to remember what to do in which phase and which units had already casted stuff. Now, at least it's all in the same phase. Much more convenient IMO. I very much hated 6th edition Psychic powers. It was incredibly laborous as soon as you had multiple Psykers.
In fact I strongly dislike how preminent Psychic powers have become in the game. It used to be that Psykers had relatively limited powers and even powerful Psykers usually could not cast more than one power per turn. During 5th edition Space magic began to run rampant in power creep (starting with Psyker Battle squad and Space wolf codex) and it was downhill from there.
Anyone can still buy old LOTR miniatures from GW (they're still cheaper than Hobbit minis, or most WHFB minis) and play the game. They just don't want to. The game went derelict long before Hobbit and it's prices (which may not have been entirely GW's fault anyway) so it can't be pinned on that.
In fact, LOTR seems to perfectly conform to wishes people often make from GW mainline games:
-reasonably priced
-no silly cartoony models
-no constant power creep
-fresh ruleset with no legacy junk
Yet it no longer sells. I don't know anyone who has an army or plays the game. What gives?
For one thing, they doubled the price of basic units - first by halving the number of models in a box, and dropping the price by about 25%. Then by later raising the price by 25%. They also did similar shenigans with metal characters before finecast. Going from foot & mounted versions of characters, to splitting them for much, much more. You get the idea - all the usual pricing shenanigans.
Yeah, but that was only after the game was already in terminal decline. In fact even today LOTR is much cheaper to play than WHFB.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/01 06:47:19
Its friggin Huge....
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
