Switch Theme:

New Rule for Spears : Phalanx Formation  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

I've always thought it strange how there's no phalanx rule in warhammer, so here's a little idea.
Sorry if it's a little unclear, it's a bit of a complicated rule.

Phalanx Formation:

A regiment armed entirely with shields and spears, has at least 3 ranks and is 5 models wide may make a phalanx. At the start of each of the controlling player's movement phase, he must declare which applicable units become phalanxes. The phalanx formation lasts until the start of the players next turn. Note that at any point in the game, if the unit drops below 3 ranks, it loses the ability to become a phalanx; it simply does not have the mass required to create an effective block of spears.
Each phalanx receives the following buffs and debuffs:

Buffs

- If an enemy unit charges a phalanx in it's frontal arc, that unit automatically receives hits equal to the number of phalanx models the aggressor is in contact with, as well as 2 ranks behind it.
For example, if unit A charges a phalanx with fours ranks of five models wide, that unit receives 15 automatic hits. These hits are resolved SX, where X is the strength value of the models in the phalanx.
If the charging unit has a movement value of 6 or greater, this is increased to SX+1.
The phalanx may still make it's attacks as normal, and may still use the bonus attacks from the spears.

- A phalanx has the stubborn USR.

- The phalanx receives +1 armor against ranged attacks in its frontal arc. This bonus can not be taken against wounds using the round blast templates, as the damage is coming from above.

Debuffs

- The phalanx may not march under any circumstance, not matter that special rule it has or what special rule is given to it.

- If the phalanx is a target of a spell that increases its movement or allows it to move again, it may only move half that distance.

- The phalanx may not charge. When charged, the phalanx may only elect to hold

- Ranged attacks against the phalanx receive +1 to hit.

- AoE attacks against the phalanx, from any of the templates (flame, blast, giant, etc), inflicts double the possible number of hits.

- If the phalanx is charged in the flank or rear, it may not make attacks in the first turn of close combat

- A phalanx may not reform.

- A phalanx may only wheel at half it's movement speed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/05 12:33:24


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Way too many rules. Way too powerful. It's autohit for charges and +1 armor and Stubborn! Any one of those is really powerful.

You toggle it on and off and have to keep track of those and it's a huge deal if you forget. Chuck that first of all. If something is a phalanx it's a phalanx night and day.

Not everyone has shields and spears. I think a lot are just spear options, so this excludes them in the buff which seems a bit harsh.

Something like ITP or "maybe" Stubborn is fine. But way too much is here and it's hard to keep track of. Either that or some kind of baby Stomp if charged. Like the front rank gets to make an automatic hit against most unit types if charged. But, you know, not 3 ranks. You're only looking at 5 wide, but a 6-10 wide "phalanx" becomes suicidal to charge with another large infantry block.

   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut




Not interesting at all.
   
Made in us
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller






I think some things that would make sense would be they cannot march, have no flanks or rear, and may not swift reform.
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

Absolutely broken.
Think of saurus warriors. A block of 24 (~300 points), is going to do 24 S4 hits, and then 24 S4 attacks.
It literally triples the hitting power of the unit, with slight drawbacks.
The fact that wizards exist, and parking a wizard in a phalanx will happen, you can't just give out those kinds of bonuses and pretend they even out.

-Matt

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/08 01:24:40


 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in ie
Sniping Hexa




Dublin

Just use WAB rules, they're quite simple and have been tried and tested
You need at least 2 full ranks AND at least 16 models to claim Phalanx formation AND musn't be disrupted by an enemy unit
If you wheel for any reason (including during a charge), you halve the distance you can move
Close Combat attacks from the front suffer a -1 to hit
The unit has +1 to its armor save when attacked from the front, shooting and CC (this one actually isn't in WAB, but Phalanx is either on weakly-armored Medieval units or on 3+/4+ save Greek units, and save modifiers are rare in WAB)
Units charging a phalanx don't benefit from any bonus due to charging (impact hits, lances ...)

Note that this rule is not a blanket special rule for all spear-armed units, far from it
Pikemen (Classical and late Medieval) can generally use it, as can some few select spear & shield heavy infantry units (Carthaginians and Hoplites notably)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/08 09:27:47


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Way too many rules. Way too powerful. It's autohit for charges and +1 armor and Stubborn! Any one of those is really powerful.

You toggle it on and off and have to keep track of those and it's a huge deal if you forget. Chuck that first of all. If something is a phalanx it's a phalanx night and day.

Not everyone has shields and spears. I think a lot are just spear options, so this excludes them in the buff which seems a bit harsh.

Something like ITP or "maybe" Stubborn is fine. But way too much is here and it's hard to keep track of. Either that or some kind of baby Stomp if charged. Like the front rank gets to make an automatic hit against most unit types if charged. But, you know, not 3 ranks. You're only looking at 5 wide, but a 6-10 wide "phalanx" becomes suicidal to charge with another large infantry block.


Isn't that the idea behind a phalanx? To be very dangerous in the front?
I also gave it a lot of debuffs concerning it's mobility.
But yes, a minor stomp like move would be more bearable.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Absolutely broken.
Think of saurus warriors. A block of 24 (~300 points), is going to do 24 S4 hits, and then 24 S4 attacks.
It literally triples the hitting power of the unit, with slight drawbacks.
The fact that wizards exist, and parking a wizard in a phalanx will happen, you can't just give out those kinds of bonuses and pretend they even out.

-Matt


Well, I did say "entirely" with spears and shields

Though I suppose you could give a wizard a spear :/

Also, they can only deal that much damage if they get charged in the front. Flanking is advisable, as one should always do with a phalanx.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TanKoL wrote:
Just use WAB rules, they're quite simple and have been tried and tested
You need at least 2 full ranks AND at least 16 models to claim Phalanx formation AND musn't be disrupted by an enemy unit
If you wheel for any reason (including during a charge), you halve the distance you can move
Close Combat attacks from the front suffer a -1 to hit
The unit has +1 to its armor save when attacked from the front, shooting and CC (this one actually isn't in WAB, but Phalanx is either on weakly-armored Medieval units or on 3+/4+ save Greek units, and save modifiers are rare in WAB)
Units charging a phalanx don't benefit from any bonus due to charging (impact hits, lances ...)

Note that this rule is not a blanket special rule for all spear-armed units, far from it
Pikemen (Classical and late Medieval) can generally use it, as can some few select spear & shield heavy infantry units (Carthaginians and Hoplites notably)


That's...actually a really good ruleset. A lot what I was thinking of, but a lot simpler.
The problem though is they don't have pikes in warhammer :/
There really should be, but there aren't.

I did consider making Phalanx a special rule applicable to some units, but the question is, which ones?
Nearly every race in the game can make a phalanx without looking silly fluff wise.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/09/08 16:10:31


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Isn't that the idea behind a phalanx? To be very dangerous in the front?...Well, I did say "entirely" with spears and shields ...Though I suppose you could give a wizard a spear
Yes. But there is a difference between "very dangerous" and "don't ever do this not-ever-never-ever". And you don't need the wizard in the unit to make it stupud. You could just cast augments from afar. Wildform, anyone? Horned Rat forbid, Mindrazor? Oh, by the way, when you charge my unit, you take 21 S8 hits. Then combat begins.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Also, they can only deal that much damage if they get charged in the front. Flanking is advisable, as one should always do with a phalanx.
This is the kind of thinking you just can't afford to be doing when coming up with new rules. So, I've got an option to make my units Stubborn and awesome, huh? Sounds like I'm going to field tons of models with spears, from one table edge to the other.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That's...actually a really good ruleset. A lot what I was thinking of, but a lot simpler.
The problem though is they don't have pikes in warhammer :/
There really should be, but there aren't...I did consider making Phalanx a special rule applicable to some units, but the question is, which ones?
Nearly every race in the game can make a phalanx without looking silly fluff wise.
Yeah, Warhammer Ancients is the place to go for proposed rules and tactica. Definitely check it out.
There aren't pikes in Warhammer? I mean...if you're making up a new rule, why not make up a new weapon?

Skaven should not have a Phalanx. Nor should Men-At-Arms or Goblins. They lack the discipline required. Beastmen are probably both too undisciplined and too aggressive. The Phalanx was a pretty tough formation to pull off. You really need to run a lot of drills before it becomes a viable option.

All-in-all, I'd like to see spears become a more viable choice in Warhammer. People toss around ASF, +1S, lose charge bonuses, etc., but the simplest option would be to adjust the price. Saurus Warriors often take spears, because they're fairly cheap on an 11pt model. Clanrats, though, are better off with better armour and a Parry save for less points. And units like Men-At-Arms are better off with +1S from halberds.

 
   
Made in ie
Sniping Hexa




Dublin

8th ed killed spears when introducing supporting attacks for everyone

 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That's...actually a really good ruleset. A lot what I was thinking of, but a lot simpler.
The problem though is they don't have pikes in warhammer :/
There really should be, but there aren't.


Technically, there aren't any more.
The Dogs Of War army faction - essentially Tilean and Border Princes mercenaries - used Pikemen as their main core infantry. The rules are still perfectly useable in contemporary warhammer.

They had the following effects:

~ Pikes follow all the rules and limitations for spears and count as spears except where noted below.
~ Pikemen fight in three additional ranks rather than just one
~ Pikemen receive Always Strikes First when reacting to a charge with a Hold response (for attacks directed at the charging unit only)
~ Pikemen strike at +1S when reacting to a charge by Chariots, Cavalry or Monstrous Cavalry (for attacks directed at the charging unit only)
~ Pikes can only be used to a regiment's front.

You could declare pikes as an 'upgrade' to spears; the Dogs of War list is easy enough to find, and if I remember right a basic pikeman had the same stats as an empire spearman, but swapped his shield and spear for a pike at +X points - decide if you think X is fair, too little or too much, and make it a general upgrade option...

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Yes, those sound like good rules for pikes.
A pity they are no longer used in the main game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warpsolution wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Also, they can only deal that much damage if they get charged in the front. Flanking is advisable, as one should always do with a phalanx.
This is the kind of thinking you just can't afford to be doing when coming up with new rules. So, I've got an option to make my units Stubborn and awesome, huh? Sounds like I'm going to field tons of models with spears, from one table edge to the other.


I had considered that possibility, but I figured making them slow and susceptible to artillery might make spear spam a risky venture.
I do admit that it is a concern, though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 11:45:17


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I'd also point out that they grant +1 armour to ranged attacks, but are grant ranged attacks +1 to hit them. Doesn't follow.

But none of that matters, when compared to the Ancient's streamlined version.
Still, I'd prefer to see cheaper spears before anything else. An extra rank of attacks is certainly a potentially useful upgrade. Just not more so than a Parry save and the like.

And for the record, 8th edition didn't "kill" spears. Then, you went from 5 attacks to 10. Now, you go from 30 to 40.

Spears were never a very good choice. The only unit I saw with them in 7th was Saurus Warriors; an extra rank of S4 A2 models was really nice. Now that back ranks only get one attack, hand weapons made a comeback. But for other units? Spears were a rare sight, if you had the option.

 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yes, those sound like good rules for pikes.
A pity they are no longer used in the main game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warpsolution wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Also, they can only deal that much damage if they get charged in the front. Flanking is advisable, as one should always do with a phalanx.
This is the kind of thinking you just can't afford to be doing when coming up with new rules. So, I've got an option to make my units Stubborn and awesome, huh? Sounds like I'm going to field tons of models with spears, from one table edge to the other.


I had considered that possibility, but I figured making them slow and susceptible to artillery might make spear spam a risky venture.
I do admit that it is a concern, though.


It's a pity that the Dogs of War as a whole are gone, to be honest.

Well, any rules need a bit of adapting to fit the game as well as just the historical theory. A pike phalanx should be able to take a cavalry or chariot charge and beat it, but heavy infantry with shields should still be able to go into the front of them and kill them. Yes, outflanking, but spear infantry tends to be the cheapest option an army has in newer books (precisely because of the supporting attacks thing), and not all armies have the manouvrability to do that anyway.

Equally, not all armies have access to meaningful amounts of missile fire.

Spears aren't a bad weapon; yes, supporting attacks made them lest tempting but then the change to parry rules made sword and shield less tempting too. A cheap light infantry force is still going to want to be many ranks deep because of how steadfast works, so you might as well get to fight with an extra rank..


Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





locarno24 wrote:
A pike phalanx should be able to take a cavalry or chariot charge and beat it, but heavy infantry with shields should still be able to go into the front of them and kill them.
First, I would point out that there's a difference between a Greek phalanx and a European pike wall.
Second, while I agree that a big block of spears would be the best way to answer a cavalry charge, and a worse option to receive enemy infantry...Warhammer doesn't work that way, really. The only way units really "specialize" in what they fight is in Strength vs. WS and number of attacks (determining whether they're better fighting off fewer tough foes or lots of weaker ones) and Toughness and armour vs. model count (the same thing in reverse).
If we start giving units bonuses depending on how far the enemy moved, we'd be entering entirely new territory.
locarno24 wrote:
Yes, outflanking, but spear infantry tends to be the cheapest option an army has in newer books (precisely because of the supporting attacks thing)
Spears are the same price or more than the same unit with hand weapons and shields in every example I can think of. The only other one is Empire, but Swordsmen are +1WS and +1I Spearmen, right? And halberds are simply better.
That pricing has been that way since 7th; the cheapest option is your crappiest unit, with shields. If you want spears, be prepared to pay the same or more.
locarno24 wrote:
Spears aren't a bad weapon; yes, supporting attacks made them lest tempting but then the change to parry rules made sword and shield less tempting too.
How is a 6+ Ward save less tempting than an extra +1 armour?
Night Goblins go from a 5+ to a 6+/6+, which means they suffer 2.7% more casualties against S3, the same against S4, and 16.7% less against S5 and up.
Empire Swordsmen suffer 5.6% more from S3, 2.7% more against S4, the same at S5, and 16.7% less than S6 and up.
So, you take a few more casualties against units that probably aren't causing many in the first place, and that you'll be able to fight back against. Meanwhile, you're taking significantly less casualties against more powerful opponents that used to rip through those units without any kind of effort.

I would like to see spears become what they were: the most commonly seen weapon on the battlefield. Maybe (just maybe) they impose a penalty to armour saves, or even +S, depending on how many ranks they've got. On the turn they are charged, anyway.

I'd also like to see flails and halberds get a little more accurate, too. But (1) "halberd" is obviously just their word for "pole axe", so it doesn't need to have a spear head or a hook and (2) giving it spear-like bonuses would make it more expensive.


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Well...I guess a halberd could give +1 initiative as well, to represent its longer reach. Might still be a bit strange though.

I mean, I3 Temple Guard ftw?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 16:47:36


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





You've got to keep rules consistent, though.
"halberds should grant +1I because they're longer" makes sense, but what about spears and lances, then?

If halberds were to be portrayed as actual halberds, they'd either also grant the Fight In Extra Ranks (1) rule, or you'd be able to choose between +1S and Fight In Extra Ranks (1).
But "halberd" doesn't really mean halberd. It also covers glaives, bardiches, bec du corbens, and other such polearms of which the exact spelling I am unsure of.

The more I think about it, the more I like spears being Armour Piercing. Maybe -1 per rank beyond the second.
But, again, all we really need to do is make them cheaper. Empire Spearmen are probably the worst off, since they don't have any other options. But are 40 S3 attacks really significantly worse than 30 S4 ones? No. They're just a little bit worse. And a little bit cheaper.

 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Well, spears are already pretty cheap for lizard men. The only way they could be cheaper is if they gave you points for using them

But I agree. It doesn't really make that much sense to me, as a history buff, that spears cost points since spears are supposed to be the cheapest and common weapon you can give to a soldier, outside of a big branch.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/12 10:13:33


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Saurus are the only unit I can think of where spears are well-costed. An extra rank of S4 for 1pt/model isn't a bad deal at all.

 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Actually it's free. Which is why making it cheaper would involve giving me more points to use

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Ah. Thought it was 1pt/model. Must have been the last book.
Either way, the point remains: spears are a cheap upgrade for Saurus, and that's a big part of what makes them good.

 
   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Devastator




Poland

How about spear infantry having plus one strength against cavalry that charged them in the turn they where charged?

sergeant of the devestators 
   
Made in es
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well...I guess a halberd could give +1 initiative as well, to represent its longer reach. Might still be a bit strange though.

I mean, I3 Temple Guard ftw?


You're treading into dangerous terrain here.

From a realistic point of view, weapons should have a significant impact over the wielder's Initiative. It's as simple as, the longer your weapon is, the easier you have it at striking your opponent before he can strike you.

The problem is, WHFB has never been a realistic ruleset when it comes down to those kind of things, that's why pole weapons have always sucked balls and two handed weapons are usually the answer to everything.

By the way, two handed weapons do not really work IRL like they do in WHFB. The same way swords are not the same as maces, while in WHFB they share the same stats and characteristics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 00:34:15


Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.

GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get. 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

While i think this is too much in rules i like the idea. Spears have been neglected so much in 8th where they were actually used in 7th. I modeled a bunch of skaven with spears before 8th came around and made em suck more. Making an entire option suck is not fun.

Join skavenblight today!

http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
Made in gb
Boosting Space Marine Biker




midlands UK

actually, for a custom empire army book i have changed spearmen to phalanx, they move slower but are better at damage and defence, and by slower, i mean like REALLY SLOW.

Blood Ravens, 1700pts

Empire 40 wounds

Astra Militarum 2250pts

Khorne 750pts

Space Wolves 1550pts

Orks 500pts

 
   
 
Forum Index » The Old World & Legacy Warhammer Fantasy Discussion
Go to: