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2014/10/02 02:07:41
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
These were some of the first units I homebrewed almost a year ago, but since then my homebrew-fu has grown stronger (largely thanks to many insightful commenters on this site, above all Ovion), so I've revised and recosted them for 7th Edition. Behold! (And tell me what's still wrong with them so I can fix it).
[The final (?) version of these three units -- and 27 more -- are now in my fandex/expandex.]
With lighter weapons and much lighter riders than their Marine counterparts, Sororitas bikes can maneuver nimbly through rough terrain, scouting far ahead of the main force to stage lightning strikes against vulnerable targets. - A model on a Sororitas Bike gains the Hit & Run, Scout, and Skilled Rider Special Rules. - A Sororitas bike is armed with a single boltgun (not twin-linked boltguns as on an Astartes bike). - Otherwise, a Sororitas Bike follows all the normal rules for Bikes.
A Canoness or Palatine may take a Sororitas Bike for 45 points. If a Canoness takes a Sororitas Bike, her Sororitas Command Squad may all take Sororitas Bikes as well for 80 points.
Design notes:
Spoiler:
Upgrading a Marine leader to ride a bike costs 20 points, but the Sororitas bike gains three special rules (@ 10 points each, per Ovion) while losing twin-linked (-5, at a guess). Yes, this is expensive. Why those three SRs? I wanted Biker Sisters to be distinctive, sleeker and more elegant than their male counterparts. Yes, that means you have to cut the two boltgun barrels off the bike and probably file down the body to convert it.
And the units themselves:
Throne Squad: 75 points (Fast Attack)
Spoiler:
The Adepta Sororitas first began using bikes in M38, when a preceptory of the famously fiery Order of the Bloody Rose annihilated a renegade Marine bike company and seized their mounts as spoils of war. More fragile but more agile than their Astartes counterparts, the Bloody Rose bikers proved such invaluable outriders in subsequent campaigns that their preceptory was elevated to its own Minor Order, the Fiery Wheels, while many other Orders followed their example and adopted bikes, customizing them for lighter riders using hit-and-run tactics.
Unit Composition: 1 Throne Superior, 3 Thrones Unit Type: Bikes; Superior is Bike (Character)
Wargear: Power armour, bolt pistol, frag & krak grenades, Sororitas bike with bike-mounted boltgun
Special Rules: Acts of Faith; Shield of Faith (Sororitas Bike grants Hit & Run, Scout, and Skilled Rider)
Act of Faith: Loose The Fateful Lightning Their aim steadied and engines fueled by faith, the Thrones conduct a divinely guided drive-by shooting. You may attempt this Act of Faith at the beginning of your Shooting Phase. If successful, the squad may either shoot and then Turbo-Boost, or Turbo-Boost and then shoot, in this phase. The unit must complete both actions before you move onto the next unit -- otherwise you lose the chance to take the second action.
Options: The squad may include up to five additional Thrones: 25 points per model One Throne may take a Simulacrum Imperialis: 10 points. Two other Thrones may replace their bike-mounted boltguns with an item from the Special Weapons List, also bike-mounted. The Throne Superior may be upgraded to a Veteran Throne Superior: 10 points. The Throne Superior or Veteran Superior may take items from the Melee and Ranged Weapons list. The Throne Superior or Veteran Superior may take Melta bombs: 5 points.
Design notes:
Spoiler:
Start with Dominions, who have Scout, for 13 ppm.
Change unit type to Bike: +20 points Hit & Run: 10 pts Skilled Rider: 10 pts Subtotal: +40 points Divide by 3 for high-quality troops = +13.3 pts, round to 13.
13+13 = 26. That's still 5 points more than Marine Bikers who have +1 to S, T, & WS, as well as twin-linking on their boltgun, but not so many special rules. I feel justified in bringing it down to an even 25 points per model.
Vigil Squad: 125 points (Elites)
Spoiler:
Only the most cool-headed and cold-blooded Sisters are chosen for the Vigils, a elite which originated in the notoriously rational Order of the Sacred Rose. If the Repentia unnerve many regular Sisters with their screaming fury, Vigils are considered uncanny for their icy calm and their near-total silence. Only the Superiors speak at all, and that sparingly. The regular Vigils follow the strictest vows of silence, coordinating their actions only by a few sparse hand gestures and an eerie, wordless intuition that needs no outward sign at all. Shrouded in sacred camo cloaks, their power armour anointed with sacred lubricants to move without a sound, their optics upgraded to piece the darkness of the night, Vigils infiltrate into key positions and then wait for hours, days, or weeks to observe the enemy and -- if so ordered -- strike.
Unit Composition: 1 Vigil Superior; 4 Vigils Unit Type: Infantry; Superior is Infantry (Character)
Wargear: Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag & krak grenades, Auspex Noctis (grants Night Vision), camo cloak (grants Stealth)
Special Rules: Acts of Faith; Shield of Faith; Infiltrate; Precision Shots
Act of Faith: Unerring Vengeance The Vigils intone a silent prayer and fire with impossible precision on the most dangerous of the evil-doers. You may attempt this Act of Faith at the start of your own Shooting Phase. If successful, you must choose one and only one of the following effects, which lasts until the end of the phase: - The unit gains the Monster Hunter special rule; or - the unit gains the Tank Hunter; or - any woundshits the unit inflicts on a character gain the Poisoned special rule.
Dedicated Transport: A Vigil squad may never take a dedicated transport.
Options: Add up to five additional Vigils: 25 points per model Four Vigils may replace their boltguns with items from the Special Weapons list. The Vigil Superior may take Ranged or Melee weapons. The Vigil Superior may take melta bombs: 5 points
Design Notes:
Spoiler:
Vigils start with the Battle Sister baseline at 12 points per model and then add a lot.
Using Ovion's cookbook: +1 Ld: +5 points Night Vision (from equipment): 5 pts Stealth (from equipment): 10 pts Infiltrate: 15 pts Precision Shots: 10 pts Subtotal: +45 points Divide by 3 for high-quality troops: +15 points
15 + 12 = 27 ppm! That's awfully high for a one-wound T:3 model, so I'll round down to a tidy 25.
Novice Squad: 95 points (Troops):
Spoiler:
When a prospective Sister of Battle graduates from the Schola Progenium around age 12, she is sent to the Adepta Sororitas for what is typically a six-year Novitiate. As a Novice, she learns the Sisterhood's traditions, rituals, tactics, and weaponry. A strength-augmentation harness worn over her carapace armour allows the teenage girl to handle the weight of the holy bolter, letting her train from the first day of her Novitiate with the weapon she will most likely use for the rest of her life. As a matter of both doctrine and maternal instinct, the Sisterhood tries to keep its Novices safe, by Imperial standards. Novices do sometimes accompany Battle Sisters on campaign as pages, serving their elders and observing the Sororitas way of war first-hand while being carefully graded for their skills, piety, and nerve. Older Novices being considered for the Orders Militant are even ordered into combat as a form of live-fire training, albeit against weak targets and with extensive backup. Only as a desperate measure would the Sororitas throw their "Little Sisters" into pitched battle. But desperate times call for desperate measures, and in the grim darkness of a waning Imperium, times are desperate all the time....
Unit Composition: 1 Mistress of Novices, 9 Novices Unit Type: Infantry; Mistress is Infantry (Character)
Wargear (novices): Carapace armour, boltgun, frag and krak grenades Wargear (Mistress): Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith
Sacrificial Lambs: Full-fledged Sisters of Battle may tease the young Novices mercilessly, but they are fiercely protective of them. Some of the more ruthless Sororitas commanders are known to exploit this sentiment by deliberately putting Novices in harm's way. Whenever any enemy unit kills a Novice (i.e. inflicts an unsaved Wound), it immediately and permanently becomes a Preferred Enemy for the nearest adult Adepta Sororitas unit (meaning any unit other than Novices that has the Acts of Faith special rule).
Act of Faith: Children's Crusade Pure of faith and not a little naive, the Novices stand firm against attacks when more experienced Sisters would quail. You may attempt this Act of Faith at the beginning of the enemy Shooting or Assault phase. If successful, the Novitiate Squad gains the Fearless special rule until the end of the phase.
Dedicated Transport: A Novice squad with ten models or fewer may take a Rhino as a Dedicated Transport.
Options: Add up to ten additional Novices: 8 points per model One Novice may take an item from the Special Weapons list. The Mistress of Novices may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists. The Mistress may take melta bombs: 5 points
Design Notes:
Spoiler:
Start with a basic Battle Sister @ 12 ppm.
-1 BS: -10 points -1 Ld: -5 pts Replace Power Armour with Carapace: -5 pts (per a PM from Ovion)
Add Sacrificial Lambs: +10 pts (at a guess)
NET: -10 points
Divide by 3 for high-quality troops, which these still are relative to Guardsmen: -3.3 pts. Then take -1 more because they don't have Bolt Pistols.
12 - 4.3 = 7.7 points, round up to 8.
But the Mistress is a standard Battle Sister (12 pts) with the Veteran Superior upgrade (10 points), so it's a squad with nine 8-pt models (=72 pts) and one 22-pointer: 94 points, round up to 95 for sanity's sake.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2014/12/22 03:42:35
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I've never felt that Sororitas should be on bikes. They get Dominions and Seraphim so they're not lacking in Fast Attack squads. Also, why are all Biker Sisters better than White Scars at the one thing they excel at.
Vigils are way overpriced. I'd price them out at 15 points per model. This is a case of them being less than the sum of their parts. They're only slightly better than Marine Scouts with Camo Cloaks.
Fluff wise Novice Sisters shouldn't see action outside of extraordinary circumstances. In my Codex they're part of the Inquisitorial Guard, each hand picked by their Inquisitor. Dark Heresy Fluff supports this.
My own Novice Sisters are priced out at 8 points and they don't get Acts of Faith or have any special rules except Shield of Faith. I'm not too sure about this one, you might want to price them at 9 points as is.
You may well be right about Vigils being overpriced -- Ovion's piece-by-piece costing method came out 12 points higher than the consensus in the original thread. Given their WS/BS 4, Ld 9, power armor, and access to 4 special weapons per squad, I'd been thinking of them more as sneaky Sternguard than souped-up Scouts: Imagine four meltaguns or four flamers with precision shots and an AOF letting them choose tank hunters, monster hunters, or poisoned (vs. characters), infiltrating right into your ranks. But when I compare to Marine Scouts with camo cloaks @ 13 ppm, using Ovion again but from a different starting point, I get 20 ppm for Vigils, not 25:
Spoiler:
Replace Astartes package (ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads) with Sororitas package (Shield of Faith, Act of Faith): +/-0? (seems unfair to me, but it's the only way the pricing in the codexes makes sense....)
Add +1 to WS, BS, & Ld: +30 Upgrade Scout Armor to Power Armor: +5 pts Add Precision Shots: +10 Add Night Vision: +5 Subtotal: +50
Subtract -1 to S & T: -20 - Move Thru Cover: -10 Subtotal: -30
Net: +20, divide by 3 for high-quality troops, = +6.7, round up to 7. 13 ppm + 7 = 20 ppm
As for Novices, how routinely they see action is unclear to me, so I figured they should be included. Compared to Inquisitorial Acolytes, yours may be overcosted....
As for Bikes: Bikes are cool. Also their toughness (which I long resisted) and speed mean they fill a very different tactical role from Dominions or Seraphim. Marines have bikes, scouts, and jump troops, so why shouldn't Sisters too?
In general, we have very different visions of the Sisters. Folks should check out J3f's fandex here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/02 13:16:38
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I'd give the bikes storm bolters. They're inferior to combi-bolters but still just that bit more substantial than regular bolters.
I like how you worked in "spec ops" style with a literal vow of silence for the Vigils. It'd be nice if they could get sniper rifles or Stalker-pattern bolters, though. It would be good to finally have a unit capable of high-impact sniping that isn't the Vindicare Assassin. Giving them special bolters (Stalkers) would fit with your "sneaky Sternguard" concept, as what really makes Sternguard great is their Special Issue Ammunition and combi-weapons.
Would Preferred Enemy (Characters) work better for the Act of Faith? They're going to be wounding the majority of them on a 4+ anyway, especially when they're carrying special weapons.
I'm not really sure what the point in the Little Sisters is. I have to add that I wasn't expecting Sororitas Neophytes from "Child Soldiers"!
I like how you worked in "spec ops" style with a literal vow of silence for the Vigils. It'd be nice if they could get sniper rifles or Stalker-pattern bolters, though...
I tried that, but it got complicated -- in the end I decided to give them all Precision Shots as a reflection of their training, and then let them take Dominion levels of special weapons.
Would Preferred Enemy (Characters) work better for the Act of Faith?...
Probably. That's something for the revisions!
I'm not really sure what the point in the Little Sisters is....
I wrote them from my headcanon first rather than with a specific tactical role in mind, frankly. (I was originally inspired by Melissia's old fandex). As written, they provide decent second-line troops, e.g. for camping on objectives, with a burst of Fearless and Sacrificial Lambs to stiffen them at a critical, desperate moment. That said, without heavy weapons they can't provide any fire support from the backfield. Their stats are also still better than Imperial Guard regulars, though, so you could throw them in the front line as your main force to represent a desperation move by the Sisterhood.
Don't read Codex: Chaos Space Marines.
Too late!
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
SisterSydney wrote: You may well be right about Vigils being overpriced -- Ovion's piece-by-piece costing method came out 12 points higher than the consensus in the original thread. Given their WS/BS 4, Ld 9, power armor, and access to 4 special weapons per squad, I'd been thinking of them more as sneaky Sternguard than souped-up Scouts: Imagine four meltaguns or four flamers with precision shots and an AOF letting them choose tank hunters, monster hunters, or poisoned (vs. characters), infiltrating right into your ranks.
But when I compare to Marine Scouts with camo cloaks @ 13 ppm, using Ovion again but from a different starting point, I get 20 ppm for Vigils, not 25:
Spoiler:
Replace Astartes package (ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads) with Sororitas package (Shield of Faith, Act of Faith): +/-0? (seems unfair to me, but it's the only way the pricing in the codexes makes sense....)
Add
+1 to WS, BS, & Ld: +30
Upgrade Scout Armor to Power Armor: +5 pts
Add Precision Shots: +10
Add Night Vision: +5
Subtotal: +50
Subtract
-1 to S & T: -20
- Move Thru Cover: -10
Subtotal: -30
Net: +20, divide by 3 for high-quality troops, = +6.7, round up to 7.
13 ppm + 7 = 20 ppm
As for Novices, how routinely they see action is unclear to me, so I figured they should be included. Compared to Inquisitorial Acolytes, yours may be overcosted....
As for Bikes: Bikes are cool. Also their toughness (which I long resisted) and speed mean they fill a very different tactical role from Dominions or Seraphim. Marines have bikes, scouts, and jump troops, so why shouldn't Sisters too?
In general, we have very different visions of the Sisters. Folks should check out J3f's fandex here.
Prospective Sisters of Battle are raised in Schola Progeniums. As shown in Daemonifuge graduates are assigned to an order in a ceremony held on Holy Terra. The only examples of Noviciate Sisters seeing battle comes from Dark Heresy where an Inquisitor can apply for a mentorship to a prospective Sister of Battle making her one of their acolytes. Unless a Schola Progenium was attacked directly there is very little chance of seeing Novice Sisters on the battlefield outside of the Inquisition. Sisters of Battle don't function like Space Marines, they have very little connection to the Militant Order they're destined to end up in until they officially become Battle Sisters.
My own Novices get Boltguns and Bolt Pistols along with BS 4 so the 8 points is justified compared to a regular acolyte. They're the top of their class, hand picked by the Inquisitor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/03 08:39:24
I tried that, but it got complicated -- in the end I decided to give them all Precision Shots as a reflection of their training, and then let them take Dominion levels of special weapons.
Complicated? Surely it's not that difficult to work out how much those weapons should cost. I'd do it, but my PC (with all my absolutely legitimate .pdf files) is out of commission right now.
I don't like the mechanics of "sacrificial lambs", too much bookkeeping involved (this unit has PE on that unit, and that unit has on this and this units, and these two on that one....quickly getting out of hand.)
And for vigils, the 20 PPM is far more logical than the 25. and even that is on the high side.
And I second the replacement act of faith to be PE:characters, works far better for "assassin types" than the current "pick-a-trick" style.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2014/10/03 13:17:26
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
Good point about "Sacrificial Lambs": Maybe it should be the FIRST enemy to kill a Novice becomes Preferred Enemy for ALL Sisters?
I'll definitely round down the point cost on Vigils. I do like the multiple-choice nature of their Act of Faith (especially given their high cost...): It basically lets them be "high priority target" killers rather than straight assassins, able to kill tanks, monsters, OR characters, but only one. The flexibility's a bit like Sternguard Special Ammo, actually.
Where Novices are from age 12-18 is actually unclear in fluff. There's one line in the current Codex that has a Novice in a cathedral under assault by Orks, though it's unclear if she's there as the Canoness's page, as part of a squad, or even being educated there. Fluff seems to suggest that the Adepta Sororitas as a whole (non-militant orders including) selects Novices from the Schola Progenium at age 12 and then puts them in a separate, special training program, culminating in the ceremony on Terra and selection by a specific Order at age 18.
I didn't know about the Dark Heresy bit, that's interesting -- but what it suggests to me is that if the Sororitas are willing to let a lone Novice go off with an Inquisitor as part of her training, then they'd certainly be willing to put them into combat as squads under close supervision by their own Sisters Superior.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I like the Bikes conceptually, but I'm skeptical about the 45pt price tag for characters. If I may digress for a moment to estimate the cost of the special rules a Ravenwing Bike is +6ppm over a Space Marine Bike and gains Hit and Run, Scouts, Stubborn, and a Teleport Homer in trade for Chapter Tactics; on top of that we have to consider that the T3-T4 bump is significantly less valuable than the T4-T5 bump and that a Canoness doesn't have access to the statline and the wargear any Space Marine character does a 30pt bike seems more reasonable than a 45pt one to me. The pricing on the unit seems a little more reasonable but you're still putting out a Bike unit more expensive than Space Marine Bikes with -1S, T, WS, and I.
Costing is definitely tricky, and I was startled how high my brute-force application of Ovion's methods drove the cost of the character upgrade in particular. I wasn't aware of the Ravenwing bike -- don't have that 'dex, but I'll see if I can get access to it.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I wonder if one way to make the Sororitas Bike costing saner -- and make clear the Sisters aren't better riders than Marines, they just have more agile bikes -- would be to replace Sklled Rider with a +1 to jink without any special ability to cross Dangerous Terrain.
It also strikes me as odd that, technically, an independent character on a bike with Scout can join a unit of foot troops and give them Scout as well. Ruling out that abuse -- e.g. specifying "a unit entirely mounted on Sororitas Bikes has the Scout special rule" -- would also be worth a modest discount to the cost for characters. (Not for the squad).
Thoughts?
(P.S. Found a Dork Angles codex and looked at Ravenwing, but Dark Knights have so much other stuff going on, e.g. death plasma talons of death, that it's hard to use them as a basis of comparison for costing).
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Now, I didn't read entire thread (sorry), but I wanted to point out a few things I've noticed while reading OP (all three may just be me not knowing basic rules or Sisters rules, so feel free to point out where I'm wrong):
1) Not really a problem, but you may wish to tweak some fluffy bits on that matter:
Bike allows for Hit & run by the virtue of being fast and nimble, yet AFAIK H&R is conferred to a unit. You may wish to come up with some reasoning why it happens (unless I'm missing something).
2) Camo cloaks provide Stealth USR while IIRC similar gear of SM and IG/AM provide +1 cover bonus that stacks with Stealth. Is this intended?
3) What exactly does poisoned rule do on Vigil's Act? Per wording it seems to me that the rule comes to play when the wound is inflicted, but at this point poisoned is irrelevant if I understand it correctly.
2014/10/13 21:16:49
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
1)....Bike allows for Hit & run by the virtue of being fast and nimble, yet AFAIK H&R is conferred to a unit. You may wish to come up with some reasoning why it happens (unless I'm missing something).
Or make H&R apply on to "a unit entirely composed of Sororitas Bikes," as with Scout, to prevent abuse.
2) Camo cloaks provide Stealth USR while IIRC similar gear of SM and IG/AM provide +1 cover bonus that stacks with Stealth. Is this intended?
Rather than trying to add a new item of wargear to the Sisters, I was thinking I'd just give them the stealth SR and leave the camo cloak as fluff.
3) What exactly does poisoned rule do on Vigil's Act? Per wording it seems to me that the rule comes to play when the wound is inflicted, but at this point poisoned is irrelevant if I understand it correctly.
Whoops! Should be "hits," not "wounds" -- thanks for the catch, I just fixed the original post.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
After much pondering, I've revised the Sororitas Bike to (1) eliminate shennigan possibilities, (2) take away Skilled Rider, which seemed something that should be reserved for White Scars & Dark Angels, and (3) reduce point costs.
Sororitas Bike With lighter weapons and much lighter riders than their Marine counterparts, Sororitas bikes can maneuver nimbly through rough terrain, scouting far ahead of the main force to stage lightning strikes against vulnerable targets. - A unit all of whose models are mounted on Sororitas Bikes gains Hit & Run, Scout, and +1 to Jink saves.
- A Sororitas bike is armed with a storm bolter (not twin-linked boltguns as on an Astartes bike).
- A Sororitas Bike lacks the Relentless special rule, but otherwise follows all the normal rules for Bikes.
A Canoness or Palatine may take a Sororitas Bike for 30 points.
If a Canoness takes a Sororitas Bike, her Sororitas Command Squad may all take Sororitas Bikes as well for 55 points.
A Throne Squad (see first post) of three Sisters mounted on Sororitas Bikes costs 70 points; each additional Throne costs 23 points.
Design notes:
Spoiler:
Upgrading a Marine leader to ride a bike costs 20 points. Upgrading a Marine Command Squad costs 35 pts.
Then the Sororitas Bike gets, essentially, limited versions of
- Scout -- which normally conveys from one model to an entire unit;
- Hit & Run -- ditto;
- and of Skilled Rider -- which is both a +1 to Jink and difficult terrain bonuses.
So, for independent characters, who lose the ability to convey Hit & Run and Scout to a unit they join, all three SRs are at half the normal value (10 pts, per Ovion): that's 3*(10/2) = 15 points.
For squads, downgrading Skilled Rider to just a Jink bonus reduces that SR's cost to five points -- but the value of H&R and Scout are unchanged, 10 points each: that's 5+2*10 = 25 pts.
A Storm Bolter has identical performance to a boltgun with Relentless. So the difference is losing twin-linked, which I guesstimated at -5. (Ovion's guidelines for TL pricing are tricky).
Losing Relentless is pure loophole-closing, just in case someone somehow figures out how to get a Heavy weapon on it. Since Heavies aren not normally available to either independent characters or the rank-and-file Throne bikers, I'm not discounting points for this.
Net:
IC: 20 points for Bike + 15 points for adding SRs - 5 points for losing TL = 30 points.
SCS: 35 points for Bikes + 25 points for adding SRs - 5 pts for losing TL = 55 points
Why these SRs? I wanted Biker Sisters to be distinctive, sleeker and more elegant -- but less sturdy -- than their male counterparts. But on reflection giving them all Skilled Rider seemed overkill and trespassing on Dark Angels and White Scars territory: Why should all Sisters bikers be that good, even with a more agile bike?
*
Slightly different calculation for the Throne Squad, which is a from-scratch new unit rather than an upgrade:
Start with Dominions, who have Scout already -- plus 4 special weapons per squad & Fast Attack status -- for 13 ppm.
Change unit type to Bike: +20 points
Hit & Run: 10 pts
+1 Jink (basically, half of Skilled Rider): 5 pts
Subtract Twin-Linked: -5 points
Subtotal: +30 points
Divide by 3 for high-quality troops = 10 points
13+10 = 23.
That's still 2 points more than Marine Bikers who have +1 to S, T, & WS, as well as twin-linked weapons, but not so many special rules.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Novice should be ws2 bs2. How come your teenage girls fight like a trained imperial guardsman. Ld6 would be reasonable too. One thing is when you get brainwashed at Scola Progenium and think you're ld10 and ATSKNF. And on a real battlefield when the bullets are flying and you're covered with brains blood and guts of your merry friends, it's another experience.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/23 05:11:37
2014/10/23 05:58:25
Subject: Re:Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
koooaei wrote: Novice should be ws2 bs2. How come your teenage girls fight like a trained imperial guardsman. Ld6 would be reasonable too. One thing is when you get brainwashed at Scola Progenium and think you're ld10 and ATSKNF. And on a real battlefield when the bullets are flying and you're covered with brains blood and guts of your merry friends, it's another experience.
Why aren't SM Scouts WS/BS2? Are Progenium-trained soldiers any less capable than feudal-world grunts who got their first firearm six months ago?
AnomanderRake wrote: Are Progenium-trained soldiers any less capable than feudal-world grunts who got their first firearm six months ago?
I'm comparing with someone like Cadians or Catachans. Besides, feudal-world grunts usually have plenty of real fighting experience. The squads are not composed explictly of newcomers - some are grisly veterans, some are regular soldiers, and some are rookies. Thus, WS3 BS3 LD7 in general. While the proposed squad consists mostly of inexperienced soldiers led by a mentor.
SM scouts are not WS/BS 2 cause the squad includes individuals who had been scouts for decades and have implants. And once again, it's a simplification to represent the somewhat equally spread variety from bs2 to bs4.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2014/10/23 07:00:57
2014/10/23 09:42:54
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
Uh, Scouts are Scouts for a few months at the most - they're only deployed as Scouts while the Black Carapace matures, when they're not going under the knife every few months.
A Scout represents a proto-Marine at the very end of his training.
That said, a Guardsman may only have had a month of Basic and Preparatory. WS/BS2 is reserved for civilians who have had a gun shoved in their hands and Cadian eight-year-olds.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2014/10/23 09:50:55
Subject: Re:Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
koooaei wrote: Do i miss something about schola progenium? What military training does it provide?
Arccording to Lexicanum and WH40k Wikia, they train Commissars, Tempestus Scions, officers for Imperial Navy and Adeptus Arbites, as well as the future generations of SoB
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 10:00:20
Oh, hi guys. Check out my Homebrew army lists here
Absolutely -- but these aren't 12-year-olds. Novice training runs from 12 to 18, and I'm thinking of the Novice Squad as formed from girls in the later stages of that training. Obviously I should make that clearer in their fluff, so thanks for making me realize that!
Now, even at age 17, the majority of Schola Progenium kids should indeed be WS:2 BS:2 -- but then the majority of Progies (I just made that up, you can thank me later) aren't going to be Sisters, Stormtroopers, or Commissars: They're going to desk jobs in the Administratum or maybe junior NCO positions in the Imperial Guard and Navy. From what little we know about Sisters' training, they're cherry-picked from the best of the Schola at age 12 and given even more intensive combat training henceforth.
So, yeah, these Novices are teenage girls.... but so are Buffy the Vampire Slayer and River fething Tam.
P.S.: I kinda wrote a few stories about Novice training, starting here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 10:54:49
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
SisterSydney wrote: Absolutely -- but these aren't 12-year-olds. Novice training runs from 12 to 18, and I'm thinking of the Novice Squad as formed from girls in the later stages of that training. Obviously I should make that clearer in their fluff, so thanks for making me realize that!
Now, even at age 17, the majority of Schola Progenium kids should indeed be WS:2 BS:2 -- but then the majority of Progies (I just made that up, you can thank me later) aren't going to be Sisters, Stormtroopers, or Commissars: They're going to desk jobs in the Administratum or maybe junior NCO positions in the Imperial Guard and Navy. From what little we know about Sisters' training, they're cherry-picked from the best of the Schola at age 12 and given even more intensive combat training henceforth.
So, yeah, these Novices are teenage girls.... but so are Buffy the Vampire Slayer and River fething Tam.
P.S.: I kinda wrote a few stories about Novice training, starting here.
As an alternative, what about keeping the Novices at Ld 8 and instead reduce their Strength to 2 (though keeping Toughness 3)? This might help address people's internal logic that's telling them that a group of adolescents should not be as physically strong as a trained adult soldier no matter how well trained they are.
Incidentally, I think that the current "Sacrificial lamb" special rule might get a tad hard to keep track off; especially when the body count starts rising and different Sisters get "Preferred enemy" at different combinations of enemy units. Alternatively, what about simplifying it as such:
Whenever a Novice is killed, the closest adult Adepta Sororitas unit in range of an enemy unit will fire snap shots at them in retaliation.
2014/10/23 17:37:26
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
SisterSydney wrote: Absolutely -- but these aren't 12-year-olds. Novice training runs from 12 to 18, and I'm thinking of the Novice Squad as formed from girls in the later stages of that training. Obviously I should make that clearer in their fluff, so thanks for making me realize that!
Now, even at age 17, the majority of Schola Progenium kids should indeed be WS:2 BS:2 -- but then the majority of Progies (I just made that up, you can thank me later) aren't going to be Sisters, Stormtroopers, or Commissars: They're going to desk jobs in the Administratum or maybe junior NCO positions in the Imperial Guard and Navy. From what little we know about Sisters' training, they're cherry-picked from the best of the Schola at age 12 and given even more intensive combat training henceforth.
So, yeah, these Novices are teenage girls.... but so are Buffy the Vampire Slayer and River fething Tam.
P.S.: I kinda wrote a few stories about Novice training, starting here.
As an alternative, what about keeping the Novices at Ld 8 and instead reduce their Strength to 2 (though keeping Toughness 3)? This might help address people's internal logic that's telling them that a group of adolescents should not be as physically strong as a trained adult soldier no matter how well trained they are.
Incidentally, I think that the current "Sacrificial lamb" special rule might get a tad hard to keep track off; especially when the body count starts rising and different Sisters get "Preferred enemy" at different combinations of enemy units. Alternatively, what about simplifying it as such:
Whenever a Novice is killed, the closest adult Adepta Sororitas unit in range of an enemy unit will fire snap shots at them in retaliation.
Skeptical about S2, Guard Conscripts (which include Cadian Whiteshields, who are probably younger than any Sororitas novice you'd find on a battlefield) are still S/T3. I would put them at Ld7 with a Ld8 Superior, though.
Do, of course, remember that stats are a generalised representation of all the fluff. Just because Cadian Whiteshields may comprise of children doesn't mean Conscripts - as a whole - are generally comprised as such as well. The unit description in the codex simply describes them as a mass of poorly trained, expendable bodies raised in times of desperation. They make no comment whatsoever that they're children or that they're physically any different from your rank-and-file Guardsman.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 18:02:27
2014/10/23 18:55:38
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
Yes, Strength 2 is too low. (See: -4 Str meme). With S, T, WS, and BS all at three, the Novices are equal to rank-and-file Guardsmen -- which is appropriate given they're almost of military age (16-17), have many more years of training in a much better-resourced program, and come from a highly selected population to begin with. Ld:7 seems inadequate to reflect the fact that they're essentially fanatical child soldiers who've separated from their parents (if their parents aren't already dead) and isolated in an environment where the constant indoctrination makes the Hitler Jugend look half-hearted.
Simplifying "Sacrificial Lambs" is a good idea -- just how to implement that one is tricky. Not sure about the snap shots idea, but it's interesting. Giving the entire Sisters army "preferred enemy" on someone who kills Novices is easier to keep track of but seems overpowered, while giving everyone Hatred is underpowered given that (1) Sisters hate melee and (2) Priests/Choristers give you easy Hatred anyway. I welcome ideas!
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Gretchin are seriously weaker than a 17-year-old high school athlete, let alone one whose team sport is killing heretics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/26 03:18:59
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
koooaei wrote: Novice should be ws2 bs2. How come your teenage girls fight like a trained imperial guardsman. Ld6 would be reasonable too. One thing is when you get brainwashed at Scola Progenium and think you're ld10 and ATSKNF. And on a real battlefield when the bullets are flying and you're covered with brains blood and guts of your merry friends, it's another experience.
Because the Schola also trains Commissars and the Storm Trooper Regiment. This is a private military-religious academy that produces some of the hardest, all-human fighters the Imperium fields. A Schola Graduate *is* a better soldier than a rank-and-file Guardsman.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
