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Curze is actually quite similar to Che, come to think of it.

Except being based on a character from a book written almost 30 years before Che Guevara was born.

 Psienesis wrote:

I just want to collect the good traits about the Night Lords, whatever they may be.

They don't have any.

Wow, you replied to my post, yet ignored the rest of the stuff in it.

I've already said, if you (or anyone else) don't believe they have any good traits, there's no need to mention it. Let those who believe they have say their piece. No point asserting that they don't have any since the purpose of this thread is not to debate that.


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 Psienesis wrote:

Curze is actually quite similar to Che, come to think of it.

Except being based on a character from a book written almost 30 years before Che Guevara was born.

Doesn't mean Che can't be similar to a character written 30 years before his birth.

nothing relatable

If their wasn't something relatable the books wouldn't sell.

then your psychotic

Adhom attacks don't stick.

Both are murders but the Night Lords make their victims gak their collective pants before they gouge their eyes out and rape/mutilate them, While the Imperium surgically erases a planet.

What about the whole achrophlagalent thing. Torturing captives to save their souls or enslaving and sterilizing the entire population of Armageddon. These actions are as cruel as they are unnecessary.

Why would a Night Lord care about the welfare of a Black Legion serf?

Khai-zan Uprisings (968.M41) - Led by Night Lords Chaos Space Marines, Traitor Planetary Defence Forces and numerous uprisings by Chaos Cultists, an attack is launched during a public holiday on the Imperial Agri-world of Khai-Zan, unleashing the Khai-Zan Uprisings. With over half of the Planetary Defence Force on leave, the beleagured planet soon finds itself beset on all sides by the Forces of Chaos. The cultists utilize summoned daemons but, due to the distance of Khai-Zan from the Eye of Terror and a lack of devotion from the Night Lords, the actual number of summoned daemons is very small. The Night Lords' Chaos Champion Gorsameth leads his troops in a clash against the men of the 122nd Cadian Shock Troopers, under Captain Fane. The Night Lords Chaos Sorcerer Asuramandos uses Warp magicks to redirect and mis-deploy the defenders, causing them to be overrun in the ensuing battle. Captain Fane as well as his entire company die in defence of an Adeptus Arbites Precinct House. The stranglehold of Chaos over Khai-zan is finally broken by the arrival of the Astartes of the Imperial Fists. Every Traitor is slain to a man.

Why would Night Lords need redeeming qualities? They're not pretending to be something they aren't.

 koooaei wrote:
Why would Night Lords need redeeming qualities? They're not pretending to be something they aren't.

They've been written as the most evil legion, so I find it interesting to make them appear more redeemable.

What about the whole achrophlagalent thing. Torturing captives to save their souls or enslaving and sterilizing the entire population of Armageddon. These actions are as cruel as they are unnecessary.

Pain is Faith entering the body.

The population of Armageddon had been witnesses to a Daemonic Incursion that featured a Daemon Primarch. Of course they had to be exterminated! That kind of knowledge *cannot* be allowed to spread. Sure, it's gakky, but it is the absolute best thing that can be done, given the circumstances.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Why would Night Lords need redeeming qualities? They're not pretending to be something they aren't.

They've been written as the most evil legion, so I find it interesting to make them appear more redeemable.

They what?
Where, When?

They DID accomplish compliance during the Great Crusade.

One of my favorite bits is how Planetary Governors would execute their own populations criminals and heretics at mere word that the VIII were in their sector.

It may not have been pretty, but it worked.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
They DID accomplish compliance during the Great Crusade.

One of my favorite bits is how Planetary Governors would execute their own populations criminals and heretics at mere word that the VIII were in their sector.

It may not have been pretty, but it worked.

Everyone achieved compliance during the Great Crusade, Even the Word Bearers.

Well, except maybe the 2 Missing Legions, but that is speculation, at best.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Night lords fight against the imperium because it's corrupt and brutal and awful in every way, and once they wake up all the sheeple they can restore order and liberty. What redeems them is that they epitomise the civil liberty aspect of chaos. They're still chaos, though, because they're donkey-caves about it. They're the occupy movement with guns, and, like other terrorist organizations like, formerly, ETA or the IRA, their fundamental disrespect for people they consider stupider or worse than them permits them to commit violence that is arguably against the entire point of what they're trying to achieve in the first place. Well-meaning, but flawed. That's really chaos in a nutshell.

The NL represent, more than civil liberties, unfettered personal freedom... and why that's such a terrible thing. They are, by their very nature, terrorists to such extremes that we would probably need to invent a new word, like "ultra-megaterrorism" or "hyper-pantsgakking-terrorism" to describe their combat doctrine.

There's nothing redeeming about this Legion. They aren't meant to be redeemable. They're monsters in super-human guises.

They're kind of like ISIS.

No, that's the Word Bearers.

ISIS is a brutal combination of the Word Bearers and Night Lords. They're even beheading infants now.

That's even more grimdark than what 40k has to offer.

Khonsu wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
They DID accomplish compliance during the Great Crusade.

One of my favorite bits is how Planetary Governors would execute their own populations criminals and heretics at mere word that the VIII were in their sector.

It may not have been pretty, but it worked.

Everyone achieved compliance during the Great Crusade, Even the Word Bearers.

"Even" the Word Bearers? Uhh.. I thought the WB made the most loyal worlds?

I'm not sure about the "most" loyal, but the Word Bearers were certainly extremely effective in ensuring that the worlds they conquered were loyal to the Imperium.

Perhaps not the most efficient use of their time (which was, in the end, the Emperor's actual problem), but there it is.

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm not sure about the "most" loyal, but the Word Bearers were certainly extremely effective in ensuring that the worlds they conquered were loyal to the Imperium.

Perhaps not the most efficient use of their time (which was, in the end, the Emperor's actual problem), but there it is.

ISIS is a brutal combination of the Word Bearers and Night Lords. They're even beheading infants now.

The word bearers built things. They built cities, hospitals, roads, monuments and temples. They built them all in such a way to promote religious devotion, but they did none the less build things. The taught the population and created a rigid order in the social fabric of the words the conqured. Again it was a social order that deified the emperor, but they none the less educated people and created a stable society.

The Word Bearers are NOT ISIS/ISIL/IS who much around and destroy things.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
They DID accomplish compliance during the Great Crusade.

One of my favorite bits is how Planetary Governors would execute their own populations criminals and heretics at mere word that the VIII were in their sector.

It may not have been pretty, but it worked.

Everyone achieved compliance during the Great Crusade, Even the Word Bearers.

"Even" the Word Bearers? Uhh.. I thought the WB made the most loyal worlds?

But until Monarchia they've made the smallest number of worlds compliant, You'd agree.

 Exergy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm not sure about the "most" loyal, but the Word Bearers were certainly extremely effective in ensuring that the worlds they conquered were loyal to the Imperium.

Perhaps not the most efficient use of their time (which was, in the end, the Emperor's actual problem), but there it is.

ISIS is a brutal combination of the Word Bearers and Night Lords. They're even beheading infants now.

The word bearers built things. They built cities, hospitals, roads, monuments and temples. They built them all in such a way to promote religious devotion, but they did none the less build things. The taught the population and created a rigid order in the social fabric of the words the conqured. Again it was a social order that deified the emperor, but they none the less educated people and created a stable society.

The Word Bearers are NOT ISIS/ISIL/IS who much around and destroy things.

Better read up on your Word bearers Exergy, They had specialized units that destroyed a planets culture and pantheon of Gods, And murdered every member of that world's clergy.

Better read up on your Word bearers Exergy, They had specialized units that destroyed a planets culture and pantheon of Gods, And murdered every member of that world's clergy.

That the WB selectively killed the priest caste and destroyed the centers of worship is irrelevant, because what they did then was rebuild those places with temples dedicated to the Emperor of Mankind, filled with the zealously faithful, often members of the Legion itself, to convert the populace.

This worked, and worked extremely well, it was just very time-consuming. The Emperor would rather they kill every man, woman and child that resisted.

 Psienesis wrote:
he Emperor would rather they kill every man, woman and child that resisted.

Did the Emperor ever give such orders? When did he do that, and under what circumstances?

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
he Emperor would rather they kill every man, woman and child that resisted.

Did the Emperor ever give such orders? When did he do that, and under what circumstances?

This was the whole deal with the destruction of Monarchia. The Emperor did not really give much of a feth that they were worshipping him, what he gave a feth about was the time they were taking in building all the temples and monuments and the time spent in converting the populaces of these worlds. The Emperor's main beef was that he had sent the Word Bearers out to be conquerers and soldiers, not missionaries; the real problem was that they were wasting time at being the latter, rather than the former.

If the Emperor actually cared about the religious aspect of it (rather than that simply being symptomatic) then it is more than likely he would have taken pains to stamp out the veneration of him that was happening on Terra, all around him, while he was there. He didn't. The Word Bearers could have been wasting time with secular public works projects, it didn't matter to the Emperor. All that mattered was that the Word Bearers were not advancing as swiftly as he would like.

 Psienesis wrote:
This was the whole deal with the destruction of Monarchia. The Emperor did not really give much of a feth that they were worshipping him, what he gave a feth about was the time they were taking in building all the temples and monuments and the time spent in converting the populaces of these worlds. The Emperor's main beef was that he had sent the Word Bearers out to be conquerers and soldiers, not missionaries; the real problem was that they were wasting time at being the latter, rather than the former.

If the Emperor actually cared about the religious aspect of it (rather than that simply being symptomatic) then it is more than likely he would have taken pains to stamp out the veneration of him that was happening on Terra, all around him, while he was there. He didn't. The Word Bearers could have been wasting time with secular public works projects, it didn't matter to the Emperor. All that mattered was that the Word Bearers were not advancing as swiftly as he would like.

I’m afraid you have me misunderstood. I’m asking if there was at any point under the Great Crusade, where the Emperor said “these feewls are refusing to surrender themselves to the Imperium.
Therefor every single man, woman and child needs to be killed.”

Monarchia is different because its destruction served as punishment for Lorgar, due to his slow pace doing the crusade.
The people of Monarchia were already compliant with the Imperium.

I’m afraid you have me misunderstood. I’m asking if there was at any point under the Great Crusade, where the Emperor said “these feewls are refusing to surrender themselves to the Imperium.
Therefor every single man, woman and child needs to be killed.”

Any time He directed the World Eaters to take a planet.

 Psienesis wrote:

I’m afraid you have me misunderstood. I’m asking if there was at any point under the Great Crusade, where the Emperor said “these feewls are refusing to surrender themselves to the Imperium.
Therefor every single man, woman and child needs to be killed.”

Any time He directed the World Eaters to take a planet.

So you do not have a quote, page, or spoiler for me? Okay then.

Pain is Faith entering the body.

No its not, its no different from Cyrion of the Night Lords laughing from hearing the fears of his victims, its sadism.

The population of Armageddon had been witnesses to a Daemonic Incursion that featured a Daemon Primarch. Of course they had to be exterminated! That kind of knowledge *cannot* be allowed to spread. Sure, it's gakky, but it is the absolute best thing that can be done, given the circumstances.

So why not just kill them. Somehow I have the feeling that they don't even have them doing anything remotely useful, just breaking rocks or some other menial task, again sadism, the Imperium started out being sadistic for expediency then became the sadistic for the fun of it. Kinda like the Night Lords that's what Curze meant when he said "the lesson of the Legion" over and over again, proving that the Imperium was just as vile he was, only he would take responsibility for his sins while the Imperium and the Emperor wouldn't. Then again this sounds more like the redeeming qualities of Curze as opposed to the Legion he hated. I suppose the redeeming quality is their still are some Night Lords that are ruthless to win as opposed to just getting some weird sexual thrill from murdering people.


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*cannot*

Why because people might realize that their living a lie. The Imperium damns itself with ignorance, that's the flaw since the great crusade.
The Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, anything originating from the progenium schools such as Commissars take second place to the dark elder on the evil scale.

No its not, its no different from Cyrion of the Night Lords laughing from hearing the fears of his victims, its sadism.

Sadism is a sexual fetish whereby sexual gratification is obtained through the infliction of pain on another. While there may be some sadists within the religious organizations of the Imperium, that is not the point or purpose of the Penitent Engine.

So why not just kill them. Somehow I have the feeling that they don't even have them doing anything remotely useful, just breaking rocks or some other menial task, again sadism, the Imperium started out being sadistic for expediency then became the sadistic for the fun of it.

Those broken rocks would later be turned into concrete for the re-construction of Armageddon.

Why because people might realize that their living a lie. The Imperium damns itself with ignorance, that's the flaw since the great crusade.
The Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, anything originating from the progenium schools such as Commissars take second place to the dark elder on the evil scale.

Human beings generally prefer living lives of ignorance. In the setting of 40K, that's actually not a bad choice, because the knowledge of things in the larger galaxy

So you do not have a quote, page, or spoiler for me? Okay then.

Do the World Eaters recognize combatants vs non-combatants on the planets they deploy to, pre-Heresy? Yes or No?

The Emperor sent the World Eaters to pacify planets during the Great Crusade, Yes or No?

Spoiler: The answer to Question 1 is "no", the answer to Question 2 is "Yes". The Emperor knew what Angron was up to... that was entirely why He put him in charge of the Legion.

Simple inference would tell you that the Emperor knew what He was consigning a planet to that He sent the World Eaters to capture. This is why so many of them simply surrendered once they learned the World Eaters were coming.

 Psienesis wrote:
Do the World Eaters recognize combatants vs non-combatants on the planets they deploy to, pre-Heresy? Yes or No?

The Emperor sent the World Eaters to pacify planets during the Great Crusade, Yes or No?

Spoiler: The answer to Question 1 is "no", the answer to Question 2 is "Yes". The Emperor knew what Angron was up to... that was entirely why He put him in charge of the Legion.

Simple inference would tell you that the Emperor knew what He was consigning a planet to that He sent the World Eaters to capture. This is why so many of them simply surrendered once they learned the World Eaters were coming.

I haven’t read any source material depicting the World Eaters committing genocide against civilians prior to Horus corruption, and even if they did, nowhere is the Emperor shown to have sanctioned such acts of brutality. Now, should written material that proves your point true exist, and you could point me to it, then that would be grand indeed. As of now this is merely your own interpretation of the fluff.

not the point or purpose of the Penitent Engine.

What idiotic superstition everyone's soul gets absorbed into the warp.

Those broken rocks would later be turned into concrete for the re-construction of Armageddon.

Those broken rocks would later be turned into concrete for the re-construction of Armageddon.

No its pretty well implied that a lot of what the Imperium does is wasteful and just done as part of mindless bureaucracy.

I have to say this may be the only time I find someone's take of fiction downright disturbing. Your just to in to this stuff, maybe its just as act, larping or trolling but you come off like someone who could have run a concentration camp.


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Human beings generally prefer living lives of ignorance.

What are you basing this on, humans naturally seek knowledge.

What are you basing this on, humans naturally seek knowledge.

Watched the news lately? Humans don't seek knowledge, they seek confirmation of the beliefs they already hold.

I have to say this may be the only time I find someone's take of fiction downright disturbing. Your just to in to this stuff, maybe its just as act, larping or trolling but you come off like someone who could have run a concentration camp.

I don't judge the Imperium by my 21st century liberal standards, I judge them by the reality of the setting in which it is found, and in that reality, life is cheap, and people die for horrid reasons, because the galaxy is vast, and utterly uncaring.

The Imperium is a brutal, bloody, dogmatic dictatorship.

Warhammer 40,000 Opening Scrawl wrote:
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable.

That is the Imperium. You are, no matter *who* you are, simply one of a billion billion cogs in an unimaginably vast machine that simply plods along under its own inertia. Nothing you accomplish will matter, because the galaxy is too big to care about the efforts of just one person.

Warhammer 40,000 Opening Scrawl wrote:Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

This is Warhammer 40k. Hope is the first step on the road to Disappointment. There is no happy ending, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. These are the tales of the End of Times. Humanity will not survive this, the last chapter of its existence, as it now is. It will either experience its foretold apotheosis and awaken as a psychic race, or it will be consumed by the legion of threats that surround it.

Those who fight to protect humanity do so because it is all they can do. There is no hope for an ultimate victory, simply delaying the inevitable for one more day.

To quote another fan:

Baron von EvilSatan, 1d4Chan wrote:The Imperium isn’t grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn’t survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single gak decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man woman and child suffering a gak life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die.

Watched the news lately? Humans don't seek knowledge, they seek confirmation of the beliefs they already hold.

How do you explain all the inventions made. Maybe I can't speak for humanity but I can speak for myself in saying that I don't like most things I know but I accept them.

I don't judge the Imperium by my 21st century liberal standards

Niether do I. I am not complaining that they don't have trial by jury I'm complaining that they murder and torture their own citizens for petty reasons and are destroying mankind just as well as the Necrons or Orks. Even Imperial fluff admits to the self destructiveness of the Imperium and its pointless corruption and brutality. I'm not complaining about ruthlessness i'm just saying that the ruthlessness should make more sense.

Humanity will not survive this

Then all the efforts of the Imperium are meaningless. Humanity will survive, but not with the High Lords in charge, either the Emperor will come back and rule over a much diminished Empire or Abaddon will. The reason the humanity is in such a dire straight is because of stagnation which was beginning before the Horus Heresy.

It will either experience its foretold apotheosis and awaken as a psychic race, or it will be consumed by the legion of threats that surround it.

I agree.

How do you explain all the inventions made

Because individuals can rise above the masses around them.

I'm complaining that they murder and torture their own citizens for petty reasons and are destroying mankind just as well as the Necrons or Orks. Even Imperial fluff admits to the self destructiveness of the Imperium and its pointless corruption and brutality. I'm not complaining about ruthlessness i'm just saying that the ruthlessness should make more sense.

In the case of Armageddon, it does make sense. "Knowledge is power, guard it well" and "Be strong in your ignorance" being axioms of virtue in the Imperium, these people had knowledge they shouldn't have, and were no longer ignorant of things they should be.

In other words, "Men must die so that Man may endure". Those people were potential threats, because the mere knowledge of Chaos is a potential gateway to Corruption (which is why the Inquisition watches the Inquisition, and often employs specialists to do the actual reading of grimoires and such, like the Sisters Dialoguous) and there were millions of people with the knowledge of Chaos, and an untested fortitude of will to resist its temptations.

Better for everyone to exterminate them.

Then all the efforts of the Imperium are meaningless.

Yes. Welcome to the GrimDark.

Because individuals can rise above the masses around them.

You know my point is right your just being stubborn, if humanity wanted ignorance then their would be no reason to guard imformation in either a real of fictional universe.

these people had knowledge they shouldn't have, and were no longer ignorant of things they should be.

If the Imperium was smarter they would have used them to form a special regiment meant to follow the retreating forces of Choas in places they won't send most troops, after all why wear an unbrella if your alread wet. This was a great victory for Chaos, the Imperiums reaction has paved a way for a new heresy, the Space Wolf and friends Heresy, the Wolves have their share of friends, and when they finally turn it won't be pretty.

Yes. Welcome to the GrimDark.

Then why even purge them, why not just get blitz everyday so your too drunk to realize your being eaten by an alien.

I prefer to think that humanities future will be greater than anything anyone could imagine, as Lorgar said immortality with an eternity to unsterdand the true nature of the universe.


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The Emperor is dead, hail to the Warmaster.

You know my point is right your just being stubborn, if humanity wanted ignorance then their would be no reason to guard imformation in either a real of fictional universe.

Not at all. People invent answers for the questions they would rather not ponder and, over time, those answers are simply taken as fact, despite lacking any sort of proof to their veracity.

[quote[if humanity wanted ignorance then their would be no reason to guard imformation in either a real of fictional universe.