On the verge of just quitting 40k

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Derek L**

2 things strike me as big no-no's to your current setup:.

1. You mention you only have 2 things that can kill land raiders. If you know your going up against that you should be able to add something else to your list to help. Power claws in a unit of good close combat dudes will rip a land raider a new one. Sometimes running up and bashing a tank is what you need to do.

2. You mention losing in close combat to orks. Unless you have a unit that is good a close combat keep them away from the orks and stand back and shoot at them. Orks stink at shooting and close combat is pretty much what the army is about. So stay back and unload on them. Kill nobz first. They rip through units. Ork trukks can be glanced to death with most space marine weapons. Blow them up.

**brendan**

I'm sorry to read that you're feeling like leaving 40K due to game outcomes. I've been quite lucky with 7th edition, but like most, I have felt the sting of losing plenty in the past.

My observations:

I mostly play smaller games (~500-1000 or 2000 v 2000 teams) due to time constraints. Try it! It keeps the power-gaming shenanigans and its proponents subdued.

Terrain- line of sight blocking terrain- matters a lot. If it is insufficient, lobby for more. If your player partners are worth a darn they will acquiesce within reason and availability.

There is a lot of list optimization in all miniature war gaming. Some of it adds to gaming, too much detracts. GW has basically thrown the doors wide open in favor of it. You can still beat those cheesy lists.

Most importantly! After you get a couple of wins, losing no longer hurts. It stops being about you. You can allow yourself to accept that dice are random, et cetera et cetera.

Please try a few of the suggestions posted elsewhere in this thread before giving up! Warhammer 40K is too good of a fictional setting to not be gaming within.

**angelofvengeance**

I've found that in 7th, my defeats have been less painful than they were in 6th. I've managed to give as good as I got in most games.

**Makumba**

Power claws in a unit of good close combat dudes will rip a land raider a new one. Sometimes running up and bashing a tank is what you need to do.

str8 weapons arebad at blowing up AV14, he would need 20+ attacks with fists to HP kill one.

Orks stink at shooting and close combat is pretty much what the army is about.

Isn't it the other way around, aside for MANZ all the other ork units are shoty.

**angelofvengeance**

Orks: Shooty? Yes. Accurate? No. lol.

**anyeri**

Makumba wrote:
Power claws in a unit of good close combat dudes will rip a land raider a new one. Sometimes running up and bashing a tank is what you need to do.

str8 weapons arebad at blowing up AV14, he would need 20+ attacks with fists to HP kill one.

Orks stink at shooting and close combat is pretty much what the army is about.

Isn't it the other way around, aside for MANZ all the other ork units are shoty.

A thunderwolf calvary with power fist, it is not str 8, it has str10, thats mean 4, 5 on the charge, attacks of str10 to wreack a land raider

**ChazSexington**

I think there's a bit of TFG-phobia here if offering tactical advice makes you TFG. If you're not winning, swapping around a unit or two doesn't make you TFG.

**angelofvengeance**

Power fists are Strength x2. Which would make it S8 as a marine is S4. So you would still require 6's to glance a Land Raider.

**AutarchRion**

In response to the original post....

You need to understand that good units must be taken in large numbers. Typically having an incredibly balanced force is not a means to victory.

For example, you may want to take as many drop pods as you can, or spam out long-fangs. Having a little bit of everything will get squashed by even a moderately competitive list.

Find what is good and focus on building your list around those units. As much as I love Khorne...I will not have certain Khorne Units because they suck. You can't just purchase models and expect to win or be competitive. You need to purchase the CORRECT models.

I hope you figure it out and start winning some games! Remember, it is just a game and we play for fun....but at some point, to have fun, you need to win. Go kick some ass man!

**KTG17**

Ranor wrote:
I've lost entire squads of Grey Hunters to Thunderstorm cannons.
I lost an entire squad of Wolf Guard Terminators w/ Rune Priest and Arjac.
My Blood Claws in a year of play have failed to kill anything.
My Murderfang gets blown to bits long before he can enter melee.
My drop pod has scattered directly in front of my rhino in a narrow passage.
I bought a stormwolf, it killed four tactical marines then got blown to pieces by terminators.

I've been playing this game for a year now, and from my memory (Which I like to think is decent) I've won a grand total of one matches, the guy was playing orks and blew up most of his own force with experimental artillary(?) of some sort. That aside, ever game I've played has been a loss. And not of the 'well that was a good game' kind, more of the 'rapidly growing sense of dread as my opponent moves one model at a time across the board after bitch slapping my Wolf Lord in a single round of combat yet the game has to go on for four more turns' kind.

I've tried, I really have. I don't have the perfect army, nor the perfect tactics. But even when the latter pulls up just fine, and points wise we're level, I get my arse handed to me in bite-sized chunks. Recently I've just started saying 'gg' as soon as that sense of dread kicks in, a feeling in my gut (An unpleasant one) that just tells me to get it over with. Especially when centurions hurl 15 re-rollable shots at any vehicle I own and KO it in a single round.

Next week I'm purchasing the SW half of the Stormclaw box from a guy at my FLGS for £20 (A good deal as they're also decently painted), if they, plus the Stormwolf, fail to make a decent difference I may just call it quits. I'm sorry if these seems ranty, but I just gotta get this off my chest, as I can enjoy the game and the IP but when I'm not having fun I have to ask 'why am I doing this?' I can play other systems where even when losing I can still enjoy myself, where I can still turn things around, but 40k seems to drag on and on and on per match. I spend an hour before each game night setting up a list to the best of what I have, but my excitement just gets squished by a Land Raider that only two weapons I have can actually be damaged by, both of which either miss or are lost very shortly.

If for some bizarre reason anyone is interested, here's last night's list off the top of my head (1550pts);

Warlord Rune Priest w/ Armour of Russ + Lv2 psyker
Wolf Guard termies w/ Chainfist+Assault cannon+Arjac character
Wolf guard squad w/ jump packs+combi-flamer/plasma/melta+twin claws
Blood Claws w/ Wolf Guard PL w/ Twin claws (Stormwolf transport)
Grey Hunters w/ WGPL (Storm Bolter) + Plasma Gun + Power Fist + Wolf Standard (Rhino Transport)
Predator w/ Autocannon+ 2x Heavy Bolters
Murderfang w/ Drop Pod
Stormwolf

That's made out of models I've spent over £200+ on, and I'm highly reluctant to spend anymore. Especially as now, after some paper trials, TWC would be a massive help, but that'd cost between £30 up to £60 for one or two trio's (A single trio will likely not be very effective). I can't help but feel that 40k asks far too much of me both money and time-wise, and I'm reluctant to give anymore unless I'm certain I can actually enjoy the game.

When I first started gaming, it was with Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine (v1) and it was my first time with any kind of table-top wargame, and I kicked everyone's ass. I mean, I think I may have only lost one game (playing Orks at that) in the 30 or so times my friends and I played. We typically played 2 on 2, but had some one on ones too. I guess with that level, I could play out the grand strategy really well.

When 40k 2nd edition came out, I was stoked. I loved that set, and immediately introduced it to my same friends, and they welcomed it to. But then a funny thing happened... I was terrible at it. And the friends I had who could never beat me in large AT/SM1 games, were killing me in 40k. I guess I was better at strategy than I was at tactics, and with some of my friends, vice-versa. My favorite armies were the Ultramarines and the Eldar, usually two dependable armies too, but I would make a mistake or two, and that could be pretty unforgiving in 40k back then. Eventually I got the grasp of things and probably had a 50% win ratio.

I took a break from 40k until after 3rd edition was out for awhile, and adopted the Dark Eldar. I will never forget the first time I played a serious game against a guy in a brick and mortar. He was playing Tau. He kicked my ass so quickly we just ended the game in like 2-3 rounds. It went so fast we played again, and same result. Then I realized I simply wasnt getting close to him fast enough and when we played the 3rd game, I just went all out charging across the board as fast as I could. He knew what was up, backed himself into a corner, and I essentially slaughtered him. Once he realized I now knew how to beat the Tau, he didnt want to play anymore.

But I learned something about the Dark Eldar at the time too... You really had to play a certain style to win with them. Splinter rifles being Rapid Fire, Splinter Cannons being Assault 4 I think, I could unleash a lot of gunfire from 12" away, but I had to obviously cover a lot of ground to do it. I just ended up hating it. I really prefer to play any army in the manner I choose, but unfortunately with 40k armies, they are built to be played with a certain style. I know that gives them flavor, but if you don't play to those specific advantages, you will have a hard time.

I don't know a lot about the Space Wolves game-wise, but the same probably applies. You might want to consider some more support-like weapons. Even though I see the Space Wolves as viking-like warriors who spend their time in close combat, but in reality, you need weapons to keep your enemy's heads down while your army advances, or pick off units from a distance. That might help.

**Desubot**

angelofvengeance wrote:
Power fists are Strength x2. Which would make it S8 as a marine is S4. So you would still require 6's to glance a Land Raider

The Wolf adds strength to the base profile IIRC making it 5 x 2 and ether way St9 still has a better chance than just glancing it out.

Anyway il reiterate the need to just play lower point games till you start winning more. Then add more points once get the hang of it instead of jumping full tilt into high points games without all the models or experience.

**Makumba**

But lower point games are even more unbalanced. What is kind of a OP at 1500pts, becomes unkillable OP at 750.

1500 of necrons is a tough list to play against. Bad match up for some armies. But at 750 or less facing scyths and chariot lords is very one sided. Same with playing against seer stars.

**Desubot**

Its exactly the same thing at higher points too

Suddenly you have to deal with wombo combos like grey cent stars. multi knights, MASS Spam (usually serpents)

Necrons are a issue in it self. while if you see a seer star you probably just pack up and walk away since the daemon player is looking for a high lv game or just curb stomping people.

**keltikhoa**

Desubot wrote:
Its exactly the same thing at higher points too

Suddenly you have to deal with wombo combos like grey cent stars. multi knights, MASS Spam (usually serpents)

Necrons are a issue in it self. while if you see a seer star you probably just pack up and walk away since the daemon player is looking for a high lv game or just curb stomping people.

Hmm...
Eldar rule the galaxy.
Eldar give birth to Slaanesh.
Slaanesh eats eldar.
Slaanesh poops out daemons.
Eldar = Daemons
Daemons can now SeerStar

**Desubot**

Herpin my derp for some reason i read screamer star

**angelofvengeance**

Desubot wrote:
angelofvengeance wrote:
Power fists are Strength x2. Which would make it S8 as a marine is S4. So you would still require 6's to glance a Land Raider

The Wolf adds strength to the base profile IIRC making it 5 x 2 and ether way St9 still has a better chance than just glancing it out.

Anyway il reiterate the need to just play lower point games till you start winning more. Then add more points once get the hang of it instead of jumping full tilt into high points games without all the models or experience.

Thought mounts added toughness?

**Desubot**

Not all mounts are the same

**Mumblez**

angelofvengeance wrote:
Desubot wrote:
angelofvengeance wrote:
Power fists are Strength x2. Which would make it S8 as a marine is S4. So you would still require 6's to glance a Land Raider

The Wolf adds strength to the base profile IIRC making it 5 x 2 and ether way St9 still has a better chance than just glancing it out.

Anyway il reiterate the need to just play lower point games till you start winning more. Then add more points once get the hang of it instead of jumping full tilt into high points games without all the models or experience.

Thought mounts added toughness?

Thunderwolf mounts give the rider +1 S, T, W and A and Rending on all their attacks AFAIK.

**Toofast**

Drop pod melta is still the best way to destroy heavy armor. Drop down, deploy with 2 meltas and a combi melta in half range, blow up tank. With 5 or 6 squads like that you should have most of their armor down by turn 2. Then clean up in close combat and push them off objectives. Grav cents are also a great way to take down vehicles. 15 shots, should be re rolling hits with prescience from a librarian or rune priest, re rolling wounds, any 6 immobilizes and takes a HP off.

**Ranor**

Toofast wrote:
Drop pod melta is still the best way to destroy heavy armor. Drop down, deploy with 2 meltas and a combi melta in half range, blow up tank. With 5 or 6 squads like that you should have most of their armor down by turn 2. Then clean up in close combat and push them off objectives. Grav cents are also a great way to take down vehicles. 15 shots, should be re rolling hits with prescience from a librarian or rune priest, re rolling wounds, any 6 immobilizes and takes a HP off.

I field SW's, we don't get Centurions.

**Vaktathi**

Toofast wrote:
Drop pod melta is still the best way to destroy heavy armor. Drop down, deploy with 2 meltas and a combi melta in half range, blow up tank. With 5 or 6 squads like that you should have most of their armor down by turn 2. Then clean up in close combat and push them off objectives. Grav cents are also a great way to take down vehicles. 15 shots, should be re rolling hits with prescience from a librarian or rune priest, re rolling wounds, any 6 immobilizes and takes a HP off.

Keep in mind rerolling wounds does not have any effect on vehicles, as vehicles have no wounds.

**Grey Knight Janitor**

You don't really need new models, but do pick up some Cav when you get the chance. You just need some gear changes.

For example take armour of russ off the rune priest. I know a 4++ is appealing, but he's better served with the Helm of Durfast.

I'd play the Blood Claws as Grey Hunters until you can get a Wolf Priest with the Wulfen Stone. Without him they are so average which is disappointing.

Maybe use the jump pack Wolf Guard as Blood Claws, they're expensive and you already have a huge points commitment with your Arjac termies.

That Predator needs some lascannons all around. Heavy bolters are only ever good in the books.

**AlexRae**

Vaktathi wrote:
Toofast wrote:
Drop pod melta is still the best way to destroy heavy armor. Drop down, deploy with 2 meltas and a combi melta in half range, blow up tank. With 5 or 6 squads like that you should have most of their armor down by turn 2. Then clean up in close combat and push them off objectives. Grav cents are also a great way to take down vehicles. 15 shots, should be re rolling hits with prescience from a librarian or rune priest, re rolling wounds, any 6 immobilizes and takes a HP off.
Keep in mind rerolling wounds does not have any effect on vehicles, as vehicles have no wounds.

Grav Amps allow you to re roll when attempting to score a 6 against vehicles as per the Graviton rule.

**Moktor**

Furyou Miko wrote:
On the verge of quitting?

Bye then.

I can't imagine why people leave this game.

**Toofast**

Ranor wrote:
Toofast wrote:
Drop pod melta is still the best way to destroy heavy armor. Drop down, deploy with 2 meltas and a combi melta in half range, blow up tank. With 5 or 6 squads like that you should have most of their armor down by turn 2. Then clean up in close combat and push them off objectives. Grav cents are also a great way to take down vehicles. 15 shots, should be re rolling hits with prescience from a librarian or rune priest, re rolling wounds, any 6 immobilizes and takes a HP off.

I field SW's, we don't get Centurions.

Ever heard of an allies matrix? It's only been a thing for what, over 2 years now? I can count the number of competitive pure SW builds on 1 hand (hint: it's 0). SW are weak on their own. Trading combat squads and useful chapter tactics for acute senses is a joke. I got throttled against every good build with my pure SW lists. I added tig and grav cents and voila, I started beating top tier cron and eldar lists.

**Zathras**

Moktor wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
On the verge of quitting?

Bye then.

I can't imagine why people leave this game.

In my case I got tired with the way GW kept sticking it to the player base with their steady price increases to unaffordable levels ($160 for a PLASTIC model?) and poorly written rule sets. I played my last game of 40k shortly after 6th came out and haven't looked back. I now play X-Wing as my game of choice and can get 2-3 games done in the time of 1 game of 40k, having more fun and less rules arguments along the way.

**Sketchyfk**

I play Orks and I know that they're not a top tier army. They are a very easy army to play. You either shoot something that you don't want to get into combat with, or you hit stuff that you don't want to get shot by. As Orks aren't competitive, I don't expect to win, but there are MANY ways to run them, and the Dakka forums are fantastic for sorting out good lists.

Space Wolves are probably not THAT competitive an army, but they're better than orks. You mentioned that you're due to pick up the new box of Space wolves, personally I would be hesitant about that.

To me, the biggest downside of 40k IS the price, but at the end of the day you're getting some of the highest quality models out there. There are other games which you can look into, if you're wanting to do down that route, however the other thing you might want to think about is which aspect of 40k you're enjoying. Do you enjoy:
1. Painting
2. Collecting
3. Battling
3.a. Shooting
3.b. Close Combat

Pre-7th ed Space Wolves were a strong shooting army which could pack a punch IF they were attacked. Post 7th ed, they're been encouraged to go Close Combat, however they still have good shooting. From what I've experienced, they are an army which you need to be careful how you construct your list:
-- Drop pods are effective if you only really have drop pods as your transports. As you said, dropping it has blocked out other transport's paths. I would either try to take lots of drop pods or none at all.
-- Fliers are good, but I haven't tried out the new ships yet. People seem to really like the Fast Attack transport version (who's name I can't remember at present). However you need to make sure you protect it. As for any army, most competitive lists will have an answer for fliers. What are Space Wolves?
-- TWC are fantastic. They're powerful, fluffy, look awesome and are awesome. As with Orks, there are some units in the codex which are an auto-include. This is one such unit. A lord on the Thunderwolf is fantastically scary and beautiful. Long fangs are also brilliant.

Rathar than quitting. Before buying more. Let us see what we can construct for you.

The other question would be this: what type of armies do you tend to play against? And have you tried playing a different army? Be positive when you play. That's the first rule to enjoying the game. I'm guilty of going into things thinking I won't win. If you think "I can do this" then you'll get very far in every aspect of life.

**PhantomViper**

Furyou Miko wrote:
On the verge of quitting?

Bye then.

What a wonderful and helpful reply, especially considering that the game is already shedding players left and right...

**Talys**

The good news is, SM aren't broken -- they have the tools available such that, perhaps with some adjustments to your list and tactics, you have a chance to win a reasonable share of games against pretty much any army.

You should diarize how you lose your games, noting what type of combinations cause you grief, and then specifically determine what the counter to those combinations are. Sadly, if you play wargames against competitive opponents (people who have more experience than you who have invested in armies built to win), this is pretty much the norm.

Remember, if it looks like a terrible game, there's nothing wrong with simply conceding. If you KNOW you're going to lose, you don't need to play another 3 hours to watch all your units slowly get chopped away.

Also, if someone is playing a unit that you KNOW that you have no answer to, try politely telling them so. If someone says, "Hey, buddy, I know that I'm going to lose because I don't have a chance against [fill in killer combo]", you have a decent chance against them making an adjustment on their side to even things up.

Finally, you can always try to pair up with someone with an army or experience more comparable to yours, or play on a 2v2 table with someone you can learn from.

**EVIL INC**

I've been playing since the 80s and still lose games. When i go out to tournies and such, I often lose more than I win and only keep up because i only field fully painted and fulfill all the extra point slots including good sportsmanship. The more hardcore WAAC, competitive(yes, those last two are two separate items) players in my areas usually dont do so.

Sounds like it is the people you are playing and the atmosphere your playing in. You should notbe in an atmosphere where dread is fostered but instead fun. Find ways to joke and kid around. have conversations with them (even non gaming ones. It is a hobby that should be enjoyed win or lose.

Maybe take notes during games and see what works and what doesnt. Then either do it again or dont in future games. Watch others play and see what they do and ask them why again, maybe take notes.Play in demo games. Find a buddy to play mini practice games with you to experiment and try stuff out.

At te end of the day,it MIGHT be that wargamingisnt for you. Ya never know. Good luck.