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I'm curious if anyone has any experience with this, sculpting is something I've always wanted to learn but has seemed so daunting and I've had no idea where to start.

What advice does dakka have to give on the subject, specifically which CAD programs work best for miniatures?

Personally I'm constantly a bit dismayed that people leap into digital sculpting with such gusto when dental tools, putty and a bit of wire have been readily available for a few bucks/quid long before.

But anyway. Sculptris, being a kind of free-to-download little brother of the highly popular Zbrush, is likely to be one of your safest bets.

I can't speak for everyone else but with 3D printing and all that it just seems to be the industry has gone.

Having said that I feel like going back and learning traditional sculpting will make anything made in CAD look better.

 jonolikespie wrote:
What advice does dakka have to give on the subject, specifically which CAD programs work best for miniatures?

Program choice is just one of those "artist's opinion" things. Any full-feature 3d modeling software can make the necessary models, and can export into the standard file formats that will be used to make the 3d print/molds/whatever. So unless you're aiming to work at a specific company that has already chosen their software tools just pick whatever software you like best (interface, price, etc).

As for how to learn, get some basic tutorials for 3d modeling in general. Don't worry about the specifics of sculpting tabletop miniatures, focus on learning the basic techniques. Once you have a good foundation in 3d modeling you can easily apply those skills to creating a model with X/Y/Z features that are required to make a miniature. And by that point you'll have a better idea of what X/Y/Z features are. For example, making the CAD files for an injection molded plastic kit will have very different requirements compared to making the files to 3d print a master model which will be cleaned up and used as the master for resin casting.

Cool, thanks guys.

I did do some of this stuff in highschool so hopefully I can sit down with some tutorials and it'll all come back to me.

I'll have to check out Sculptris too.

It will cost you a little bit of money probably, but skilling up always does. Lucky for me i got it all through work.

Get Zbrush from Pixologic

Get a Gnomon workshop subscription, they have hundreds of video tutes, among them are Zbrush 101 workshops, then other series that go into great detail on character sculpting and 3d printing etc
http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/subscription/
or just get the one dvd
http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/product/953/Introduction-to-zbrush-4#.VG6s-MmAHz9

Or you could get Blender for free, and watch the many Blender video tutorials on youtube which are also free. Most creative software is a ripoff, go open-source whenever you can IMO.

It also depends on what you're planning on creating. If it's mostly angular or smooth curves (think circles and columns), then Google Sketchup is a good choice. Sketchup is ridiculously easy to learn and can export to industry standard formats for use in 3D printing. It's pretty useless for organic things though, so I wouldn't use it for infantry or similar.

I've used it to make Tau themed Aegis Defense Lines, Personalized Farsight Remoras and upgraded Crisis Suit bits.

For infantry/organic models the previous advice in this thread is good.

A quick example done in Sketchup.

 jonolikespie wrote:
What advice does dakka have to give on the subject, specifically which CAD programs work best for miniatures?

1) Download Blender. It's free, and has a lot of features.
2) Read/watch some tuts. You want to learn the basics: mesh building, extrusion, revolution...
3) Start with something simple, like a chess set.
4) Model, model, model. And once you think you're done, model something else.

There are lots and lots of good tutorials out there, Blender has a great community has evolved A LOT (in a good way) since the 2.4x versions.

Traditional sculpting is going the way of the dodo. It has neither the precision, detail or edit ability that 3d design has.

Traditional sculpting is flying on fums. With the availability of printing and as cheap as it is getting, you can easily and cheaply print masters for rubber molds as well as you can use them (models) for machining masters for plastic mass production.

xxvaderxx wrote:
Traditional sculpting is going the way of the dodo. It has neither the precision, detail or edit ability that 3d design has.

Traditional sculpting is flying on fums. With the availability of printing and as cheap as it is getting, you can easily and cheaply print masters for rubber molds as well as you can use them (models) for machining masters for plastic mass production.

I imagine there are still techniques though that are worth learning and can be applied to 3D sculpting, recently I've been noticing a lot of models on the market with a very '3d sculpted' feel to them that I think simply shouldn't be there and wouldn't if the sculptor had actually learened traditional sculpting as well. I'd very much be trying to avoid that.

Oh and I'm installing Blender now so I'll give that one a fiddle with soon.

 jonolikespie wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
Traditional sculpting is going the way of the dodo. It has neither the precision, detail or edit ability that 3d design has.

Traditional sculpting is flying on fums. With the availability of printing and as cheap as it is getting, you can easily and cheaply print masters for rubber molds as well as you can use them (models) for machining masters for plastic mass production.

I imagine there are still techniques though that are worth learning and can be applied to 3D sculpting, recently I've been noticing a lot of models on the market with a very '3d sculpted' feel to them that I think simply shouldn't be there and wouldn't if the sculptor had actually learened traditional sculpting as well. I'd very much be trying to avoid that.

Oh and I'm installing Blender now so I'll give that one a fiddle with soon.

Generally speaking the problem you are refering to im guessing comes not from a lack of physical sculpting Technics, but rather to the lack o proper 3d formal training, which lets be realistic there is little or none available out there yet. 3d sculpting has been a very niche thing for the longest time, only recently it is being used artistically, keep in mind that industrial design is very very basic compared to this kind of stuff. This has been mostly reserved for the games industry and movies, and lets be frank, there are only a handful of studios or companies that actually do this kind of work, or at least used to be until lets say a couple of decades ago at the earliest.

xxvaderxx wrote:
Traditional sculpting is going the way of the dodo. It has neither the precision, detail or edit ability that 3d design has.

Traditional sculpting is flying on fums. With the availability of printing and as cheap as it is getting, you can easily and cheaply print masters for rubber molds as well as you can use them (models) for machining masters for plastic mass production.

You are seriously talking straight out of your ass. Traditional sculpting still makes up the vast majority of the work done in wargaming. Other industries such as the garage kit industry are also mostly still analog. It is even still utilized a great deal in the special effects industry.

3D sculpting can put more detail into a figure, but it still doesn't change what can work for each scale/size. It is very easy to put too much detail into a 3D sculpt, especially at Wargame sizes. It's just another tool, and the results depend more on the sculptor than which tool he chooses.

Traditional sculpting isn't going anywhere. Not anytime soon, and likely not ever. Also, any 3D artist will tell you that analog sculpting helps with your digital sculpting and vice versa.

As to the original topic, I would recommend Sculptris and Sketchup to start. Blender's interface is a bit of an overwhelming mess to a lot of people, especially when they are completely new to digital modelling/sculpting. Also, get some clay and go to town on it.

~Eric

I foresee the demand for traditional sculptors to dwindle, for a number of reasons:

- it is very easy to tweak a 3D model compared to a physical one, permitting quick retouches, copying of parts, making multiple poses out of one model.

- models cast in metal are fewer each year. Meanwhile, more and more common plastic allows for extreme poses easily done on the computer, sometimes impossible by hand. Just look at Malifaux.

- lastly, 3D sculpting is much easier to learn, cannot be compromised by shoddy materials, there is no curing time, and does not require the modeller to have good eyesight, a steady hand, and a strong back.

For the record, I'm a huge fan of traditional sculpts and not too keen on 3D offerings so far, but I' seeing healthy progress. Give the sculptors a few years to get accustomed both to the tools and the nature of 3D printing, and they'll be churning out figures no worse than the traditional's. In any case, 3D sculpting is simply cheaper, faster, and more versatile.

There are a lot of online resources on the topic and I am sure you can just google and find things to help you out.

There is one book that stands out to me as one to read for the beginner looking to move into this area. It's written by a guy named Murdock and called the 3D Studio Max R3 Bibie.

It's just very well written and does a great job of clarifying complex subjects. I have had it for over 10 years and go back to it every time there is something I need to understand about 3D modelling or animation.

http://www.amazon.com/3D-Studio-MAX-R3-Bible/dp/076454621X

You will notice you can get it used from $0.01.

 Taarnak wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
Traditional sculpting is going the way of the dodo. It has neither the precision, detail or edit ability that 3d design has.

Traditional sculpting is flying on fums. With the availability of printing and as cheap as it is getting, you can easily and cheaply print masters for rubber molds as well as you can use them (models) for machining masters for plastic mass production.

You are seriously talking straight out of your ass. Traditional sculpting still makes up the vast majority of the work done in wargaming. Other industries such as the garage kit industry are also mostly still analog. It is even still utilized a great deal in the special effects industry.

3D sculpting can put more detail into a figure, but it still doesn't change what can work for each scale/size. It is very easy to put too much detail into a 3D sculpt, especially at Wargame sizes. It's just another tool, and the results depend more on the sculptor than which tool he chooses.

Traditional sculpting isn't going anywhere. Not anytime soon, and likely not ever. Also, any 3D artist will tell you that analog sculpting helps with your digital sculpting and vice versa.

As to the original topic, I would recommend Sculptris and Sketchup to start. Blender's interface is a bit of an overwhelming mess to a lot of people, especially when they are completely new to digital modelling/sculpting. Also, get some clay and go to town on it.

~Eric

Yeah, the same way photography did not replace oil portraits... Face it, it will be relegated to a niche thing for very few very specific porpoises, mainly where size does not allow for a 3d printed master.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -DE- wrote:
I foresee the demand for traditional sculptors to dwindle, for a number of reasons:

- it is very easy to tweak a 3D model compared to a physical one, permitting quick retouches, copying of parts, making multiple poses out of one model.

- models cast in metal are fewer each year. Meanwhile, more and more common plastic allows for extreme poses easily done on the computer, sometimes impossible by hand. Just look at Malifaux.

- lastly, 3D sculpting is much easier to learn, cannot be compromised by shoddy materials, there is no curing time, and does not require the modeller to have good eyesight, a steady hand, and a strong back.

For the record, I'm a huge fan of traditional sculpts and not too keen on 3D offerings so far, but I' seeing healthy progress. Give the sculptors a few years to get accustomed both to the tools and the nature of 3D printing, and they'll be churning out figures no worse than the traditional's. In any case, 3D sculpting is simply cheaper, faster, and more versatile.

Fully agree, but keep in mind on your second bullet, that the masters for those metal models are still 3d sculpted printed.

Ok, you "experts" just stick with your delusions. I don't much care.

This is all a derailment anyway. OP has had some solid answers, so hopefully he lets us know how things turn out.

~Eric

The industry is turning to 3D sculpts in a big way, both for injection molded figures, as well as resin and metal. If I come in Monday morning and I have photos of sculpts in my inbox from a traditional sculptor, and I ask for revisions, I might not see those revisions for a few days to a week, as it often means resculpting from scratch large parts of the model. When the photos are approved, there's an additional day or more waiting for the sculpt to arrive. Once we've seen it in person and approved it, it takes another day or so to get it to our manufacturer.

With a digital sculpt, I can see those revisions in an hour or two. Our 3D printing is handled by a local firm, so I can have the physical sculpt on my desk within a day. I'll still have to send the print for molding if it's going to be in resin, but if it's going to be injection molded, I can email the file to the manufacturer as soon as it's approved. And for injection molding, we may not even need to waste a day with a 3D print, and just approve the digital file and send it off without ever seeing a physical model.

So with digital, we can often go from concept to tooling in a few days, as opposed to weeks.

3D does have some drawbacks, though. Unless it is a CAD based model, getting really crisp organic details is difficult. It can be done, but it takes a lot of very small refining to get even close to what a traditional artist can do with a swipe or two of a clay shaper. The other big problem is that nearly all of the digital sculpting training is geared towards the video gaming and film industries. So sculptors often don't know how to push the details in a way to make good figures in the 28-32mm range. We often receive sculpts with lots of detail that will just never show up, because it isn't prominent enough or large enough. Those veins on that guy's forearm look great and super realistic on my screen , but will *never* show up on a finished model, unless they are pulled out and thickened to the point of ridiculousness to survive manufacturing. Faces especially need to be severely distorted to read as faces at that size. But blown up huge on a screen, they look awful and horribly unrealistic that way. The sculptors I have been using the longest have mostly gotten this down. But even so, most of my revision notes include things like "Make those ears 50% bigger, and pull that nose out more. Make the forehead more prominent, and make the eyes deeper." And these will be for a face that looks like a perfectly sculpted human head. If you've ever messed around with figure kits for 1/35 or 1/48 armor kits, you'll know what I mean. The faces are realistically proportioned, but at that size, they appear almost featureless, with really soft details that are hard to make look good with paint.

The other big problem with 3D sculpts are that it always really hard to predict what they will physically be like. I know that sounds stupid, but it's very true. I and everyone else can be happy with a digital model. Then the 3D print shows up, and it just doesn't work. It's hard to describe exactly why. Often it's just that details weren't pulled out enough to pop, but sometimes it's just seeing it in a different medium makes if register differently.

Still, the streamlining of the production pipeline more than makes up for all those issues. It used to be that going from resin/metal to injection molding was what separated the big companies from the small, but going forward, I think it will be how much of your process is digital.

Uh... to answer your question, for sculpting, I would play with Sculptris. Most "sculpting" applications work in a pretty similar way, whether it's free Sculptris or the ~$30,000 USD FreeForm Plus. (Okay, Freeform does involve a haptic sculpting interface with biofeedback, but aside from that, it's not too different.)

I would hold off on Zbrush a bit. They will be launching version 4r7 shortly. It will be a free upgrade if you own 4r6, but it will still be 32 bit. (They have spoken about a public beta for a 64bit 4r7, though, but I assume this involves owning a legit copy of 32bit 4r7.) Zbrush 5 will be 64 bit, but they are no longer doing free upgrades starting with version 5. So you might be better off waiting for version 5, as a 64bit version would be a huge leap forward for that software.

Blender can do good stuff too, but you may find it a bit overwhelming at first (it is also used for rigging, rendering, and animation, with sculpting being sort of a background feature) whereas Sculptris just gives you a ball of clay and some tools to manipulate it.

For CAD... uh, I like Solidworks. Which is expensive. There are free 3d CAD packages out there, but I have little experience with them. The ones I have tried have been far from intuitive and kind of a pain to use. But that may also be "they don't act like Solidworks, so I don't like them."

What Lord Derp said essentially, while traditional sculpting has some edge over 3D sculpting in creating fur and seeing the model take shape as a physical object, the 3D sculpting has so many advantages, least of all the fact that if something goes wrong the prototype can just be reprinted, that it will take over traditional sculpting soon.

Now I have mostly heard of Zbrush, nice to see other programs get recommencement.

A small OT question, when is V5 expected?

No idea. I don't even think there's a release date for 4r7 yet.

 Taarnak wrote:
Ok, you "experts" just stick with your delusions. I don't much care.

This is all a derailment anyway. OP has had some solid answers, so hopefully he lets us know how things turn out.

~Eric

Lol my resentment meter is off the scale!!!!!!!!

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:
Ok, you "experts" just stick with your delusions. I don't much care.

This is all a derailment anyway. OP has had some solid answers, so hopefully he lets us know how things turn out.

~Eric

Lol my resentment meter is off the scale!!!!!!!!

You wish. There is simply no point in arguing about it.

~Eric


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Derp wrote:
No idea. I don't even think there's a release date for 4r7 yet.

Release date for 4R7 was "soon" last time I checked on it. 5 is still not even close to beta, IIRC.