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So, thinking about buying into a dwarf army, the new models and the fluff got me interested, watching the lotr and hobbit movies again may have done it to me too lol. I've been reading the army book and looking at every forum i can find. The only thing that I'm a little hesitant of is most the army builds I see atleast from a competitive point is castle/gunline armies, to me that sounds a bit boring to play, Ive also read a little about the strollaz lists which also doesn't really appeal to me, my question is can dwarfs still be competitive with a hybrid list of blocks and warmachine or is it only good to go full in on a gun line, thanks!

My friend does quite well with multiple smaller blocks (15-20 models) and a few war machines. The BSB takes the Master Rune of Grungi for a 5+ ward vs shooting, and the Hammerers take the Master Rune of Groth One-Eye, so all Dwarf blocks are Stubborn.
Which means, if you can't kill 15 Dwarfs in one round (which you probably can't), you're stuck in combat just long enough to get counter-charged.

Quarrelers with great weapons, Longbeards with shields, Hammerers, Miners, Irondrakes, a Cannon, a Flame Cannon. and some Gyrocopters, as well as some cheap but durable characters.

I love dwarf fluff also, but if you don't like strollaz, Dwarfs are gonna be pretty static. Cheap gyros allow you to play in the movement phase a bit. Lack of spellcasting means you don't play in the magic phase either.

If you've come across 'Furgil' style lists (hordes of gt wpn dwarves and war machines) they aren't totally gunline, but still fairly castle-y, until an enemy gets in charge range.

Dwarves also don't have good mechanisms to bypass ward saves, which are fairly prevalent in End Times armies.

If you want mobile Dwarfs, get lots of 'Copters, Miners, and Rangers. The first is an essential choice for any list, the second is a good choice, and the third is a specialist, and thus can be either pretty good or pretty lackluster.

Sorry if this is a derailment but I haven't seen any posts here in a while, and this is similar enough to the OP's questions that I figured there's no point starting a whole new thread.

I'm looking to buy a Dwarf army all in one go. I'm thinking of the following units for about 3K points and need advice on unit size, equipment etc.

My overall theme is combat with some shooting (not looking to win every game, just maim my opponents even if I lose).

I was thinking of that MUS army with the Stubborn standard rune anchoring it.

Core:
Warriors, does anyone use them and if so what size should I get? Most people seem to fill their core using Quarrelers and Thunderers, but with their army special rules they seem like a solid anchor choice with HW+Shield

Longbeards S4 looks sweet (Great weapons?)

Quarrelers/Thunderers, I like both, I know it's basically debatable which is better, I might take both, do I pay the extra for great weapons? How are they best deployed, long lines 2 ranks deep?

Special
Gyros, should I get 2?

Cannons, 2 seem cheesy, but definitely 1

Hammerers, oh yeah! These guys look brutal, I'm thinking of 30 with a defense-blink lord (Shield bearers, armor runs, GW) and using them as a counter charge unit.

Ironbreakers, killer models and from the rules they look like they can take a lot of punishment (and dish a bit out too).

Slayers, love them, I Know they're not the best, but what about running min units of them as speed bumps?

Grudge Thrower, not my fav from a fluff perspective, maybe if I remodeled into more of a mortar/bombard, but I know they are considered very good.

Rare

Rangers, I like the Avatars of War models, can they be useful?

Organ gun, 1 or 2 for sure

Flame cannon, looks solid too, kinda fills some holes.

Irondrakes, look good on paper, not a fan of new stuff (very Dwarf at heart )

Thanks in advance for any advice/recommendations.

 More Dakka wrote:
Warriors, does anyone use them and if so what size should I get? Most people seem to fill their core using Quarrelers and Thunderers, but with their army special rules they seem like a solid anchor choice with HW+Shield

Warriors are typically seen 30-strong (15-20 works with the Stubborn Bubble). And they use great weapons. Period. S3 just doesn't do enough for 9pts.

 More Dakka wrote:
Longbeards S4 looks sweet (Great weapons?)

This is a comparison I've brought up quite a bit: Longbeards are basically like Ironbreakers and Hammerers, depending on how you equip them. So, if you're going to run Longbeards plus one of the other Special units, you need to look at what the Specials offer that the Longbeards don't.
Hammerers have +1A, Kingsguard, Stubborn, and an extra 25pts of Runic Standards.
Ironbreakers have +1 armour, +1 Parry (except in the 1st round the Longbeards are charged), and +1Ld, for +1pt.

It seems pretty clear to me that you're getting more bang for your buck out of Hammerers versus Longbeards with great weapons, versus what you're missing out on if you go with Longbeards and shields over Ironbreakers.
That's assuming you don't get all three, of course.

 More Dakka wrote:
Quarrelers/Thunderers, I like both, I know it's basically debatable which is better, I might take both, do I pay the extra for great weapons? How are they best deployed, long lines 2 ranks deep?

No way is it debatable anymore. That extra range on M3 models is a huge boon, but then you add in that Quarrelers can get great weapons, and there's no contest. 30" S4 shots and WS4 S5 in combat? Awesome.
I've seen units of 15-30 do very well. If you go with 10, don't bother with great weapons (and, at that point, feel free to consider Thunderers).

 More Dakka wrote:
Gyros, should I get 2?

At least!

 More Dakka wrote:
Hammerers, oh yeah! These guys look brutal, I'm thinking of 30 with a defense-blink lord (Shield bearers, armor runs, GW) and using them as a counter charge unit.

If you want to keep your BSB alive and well, you definitely need a group of Hammerers, just to carry the Master Rune of Groth One-Eye (the Master Rune of Grungi goes on your Thane).
The trick is, to take advantage of the Rune, you want to run MMU. But if you don't run enough Hammerers, you run the risk of losing the Rune.
Also consider: you don't need a Champion to protect your General with this unit...but if you get one, and give him a Flaming (now non-great) weapon, it can work out to be a nice little one-two punch.

 More Dakka wrote:
Ironbreakers, killer models and from the rules they look like they can take a lot of punishment (and dish a bit out too).

Definitely. They don't need a character to support them, either. Ld10 is pretty wicked. I find they compete with too many other options, though. They're not that much better than Longbeards, and Longbeards can help fill Core.

 More Dakka wrote:
Slayers, love them, I Know they're not the best, but what about running min units of them as speed bumps?

Units of 5 are a legit choice.

 More Dakka wrote:
Rangers...can they be useful?

I don't think huge units will do much, but 10-15 of them are pretty solid.

 More Dakka wrote:
Irondrakes, look good on paper, not a fan of new stuff (very Dwarf at heart.

They're just Ironbreakers with mini Flame Cannons. 15-20 of these bad boys, with two Runes of Slowness and that Trollhammer Torpedo...just awesome!

Quick 2nd to most of Warpolution's points.

Cannons: At 3K I'd have at least 2 cannons, possibly more. Armies that field monsters are fielding several at this point level. So if you know you are not going to be facing things like (2 bloodthirsters, 2 skullcannons) or (Nurgle Prince + 3 chimeras) then 1 cannon is fine. But if your meta is monster-heavy, dwarfs don't have a better answer than cannons.

I wouldn't bother with warriors at all unless you know you are playing a 'fluffy' game. Points spent on warriors are points not spent on xbows/thunderers/longbeards.

GW warriors are a viable choice 400 points for 37 inc full command do a lot of damage. Also very good in small games as its almost impossible for the enemy to destroy big blocks like that

ALL ZE CANNONS, GET ALL ZE ORGAN GUNS!!!!!

I'm sorry I'll shut up now...

Warriors are a legit choice. Sure, they don't shoot (like Quarrelers), and they're not WS5 S4 with ITP (like Longbeards), but they're cheaper. And they're still WS4 S5 T4.
18 Dwarf Warriors with great weapons, a musician, and a standard cost 200pts. That would get you:

- 15 Thunderers with a musician and a standard.
- 14 Quarrelers or Longbeards with great weapons (no command) and 4pts to spare.
- 15 Longbeards with shields (no command) and 5pts to spare

So, if you're looking for, first and foremost, bodies, then the Warriors are a good choice. And since they perform the same or better in combat, model-for-model, as at least half of the models listed above, it's far from purely "fluffy".

Quarrelers with great weapons are pretty much the #1 choice, though. Versatility is just so good.

I've been struggling with dwarf core too...it seems you can either go a nice solid unit of longbeards and a small support unit of quarrellers, or go two decent sized quarrellers and either a small longbeard unit, or opt for warriors to get the numbers back up.

Are warriors just too gimped with a shield and have to be run with great weapons? If I ended up going with warriors, that then runs into the issue of taking hammerers vs ironbreakers.

If I take great weapon warriors, then ironbreakers would be the anvil in special choice. The reverse would be to take shieldbeards as an anvil and hammerers as the...hammer.
I would be running a mid sized unit of irondrakes in the middle of both units for context.

My instincts tell me to take the shieldbeards and the hammerers, leaving a small unit of quarrellers to play guard duty on the war machines. I would have to invest abit more in rangers/gyrocopters to ensure my flanks aren't compromised...

any thoughts on the best use of core for dwarves?

See my compare/contrast of Longbeards + great weapons vs. Hammerers/Longbeards + shields vs. Ironbreakers.

It seems pretty clear to me that Hammerers are waaay better than Longbeards with great weapons, whereas Ironbreakers are only regular ol' better than Longbeards with shields.

Warriors being S3 are hitting as hard as Goblins and Clanrats. They take less damage against S5 or less, but that's about it.

The Hammer & Anvil tactic is decent. But. You can also just try for the Hammer & Hammer. You loose more models, but you kill more, too. Generally speaking, going more offensive is better than going more defensive.
Furthermore, I don't think Dwarf armies can afford to be double-teaming enemy units too often. You just don't have the numbers.

I think a block of Longbeards with shields is a good choice, though. WS5 T4 with a 4+/6(5)+ is pretty tough. If you need to absorb a charge, these guys should be able to do it.

Still. Hands-down, the best choice is Quarrelers with great weapons. Shoot them with S4 from 30" away. Then hit them with S5 axes when their (depleted) numbers close.
Dwarfs are a low-model, low-mobility army. A unit that can threaten the enemy in two ways is not only easy on your points, but it also means that you don't have to worry about where to place them as much, since they can just do it all.

'Copters are the best unit in the book, though. Hands-down. Really want to run a Ranger-style list. Quarrelers, Longbeards, Miners, and Rangers. Maybe 'Bombers. But definitely max 'Copters.

Warpsolution wrote:


'Copters are the best unit in the book, though. Hands-down. Really want to run a Ranger-style list. Quarrelers, Longbeards, Miners, and Rangers. Maybe 'Bombers. But definitely max 'Copters.

This is the kind of list I think seems fun and I'm working on acquiring. Copters flying around everywhere, Miners popping out of the ground all the while getting pin-cushioned by bolts.

 iLLiTHiD wrote:

My instincts tell me to take the shieldbeards and the hammerers, leaving a small unit of quarrellers to play guard duty on the war machines. I would have to invest abit more in rangers/gyrocopters to ensure my flanks aren't compromised...

And your hammerers and sheildbeards wouldn't be guarding the war machines because?

I'm a big fan of furgil style lists: two hordes of 40ish dwarfs with a big clump of war machines in between. One is always hammerers, cuz they are great.

Facing that, your enemy decides which block to hit. The hammerers, or the possibly not-stubborn less-elite block. They'll probably got for the not-hammerers. Therefore that 2nd block needs to be pretty beefy also. I like longbeards (ws5) with a stubborn banner. I alternate between shields and gt weapons, with pretty good success either way.

Groth-One-Eye makes a big horde of warriors or x-bows a reasonable choice as the 2nd block. But then you aren't sporting Valaya.

The Stubborn Bubble is useless unless you're going to field at least 3 units nearby; Stoicism is 35pts. Two of them is 70pts. The Master-Rune of Groth-One Eye is 75pts.
I guess you could always run the Master Rune on the Hammerers and then get some other neat stuff on the 1-2 other units, but that adds up to a lot of points, very quickly.

Warpsolution wrote:
The Stubborn Bubble is useless unless you're going to field at least 3 units nearby; Stoicism is 35pts. Two of them is 70pts. The Master-Rune of Groth-One Eye is 75pts.
I guess you could always run the Master Rune on the Hammerers and then get some other neat stuff on the 1-2 other units, but that adds up to a lot of points, very quickly.

Depends on the units? IIRC, Quarrellers/Thunderers/Warriors can't take a magic banner.

But its a good point with respect to Furgil-lists, the BSB could take Grugni and stubborn banner and sit in a horde of xbows or warriors. If you have two or more of those units to make stubborn, I think Groth is your only option.

kooshlord wrote:

 iLLiTHiD wrote:

My instincts tell me to take the shieldbeards and the hammerers, leaving a small unit of quarrellers to play guard duty on the war machines. I would have to invest abit more in rangers/gyrocopters to ensure my flanks aren't compromised...

And your hammerers and sheildbeards wouldn't be guarding the war machines because?

Heh - you have a point. Dwarves aren't going anywhere fast. I suppose I meant that they would be free for chaff clearing, as opposed to actually taking on the meatier parts of the enemy force.

kooshlord wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
The Stubborn Bubble is useless unless you're going to field at least 3 units nearby; Stoicism is 35pts. Two of them is 70pts. The Master-Rune of Groth-One Eye is 75pts.
I guess you could always run the Master Rune on the Hammerers and then get some other neat stuff on the 1-2 other units, but that adds up to a lot of points, very quickly.

Depends on the units? IIRC, Quarrellers/Thunderers/Warriors can't take a magic banner.

But its a good point with respect to Furgil-lists, the BSB could take Grugni and stubborn banner and sit in a horde of xbows or warriors. If you have two or more of those units to make stubborn, I think Groth is your only option.

I was planning to take hammerers, shieldbeards and in between these two take a medium sized irondrake unit (something like a size of 18). The role of the drakes was area denial and to throw their lot in on a flank once either one of the larger blocks have been engaged. I would also make liberal use of copters and rangers to keep enemies off the back of whichever unit did *not* have the support of the drakes.

Given this, would the drakes suffer if there were not getting stubborn granted via one-eye?

kooshlord wrote:
Depends on the units? IIRC, Quarrellers/Thunderers/Warriors can't take a magic banner.

True enough. I suppose that I'd say if you're going to take Stoicism more than once, you should strongly consider Groth.

kooshlord wrote:
the BSB could take Grugni and stubborn banner and sit in a horde of xbows or warriors.

Like, Grungi + Stoicism on the Thane in one block, and Hammerers for the other?

 iLLiTHiD wrote:
Given this, would the drakes suffer if there were not getting stubborn granted via one-eye?

I don't think so. If you give your opponent a charge lane to the Drakes, you might be able to tempt them into a charge against that Rune of Slowness X2.
And if they're just joining combat of one of the other blocks, I don't see how it'd be a huge problem.

iLLiTHiD:

When I take drakes, I've had a lot of success with castling the hordes and war machines in a corner, and guarding the center with slowness drakes. As Warpsolution mentioned, lots of players can't resist attempting to charge the apparently isolated unit, even if they've been repeatedly told about slowness. This frees up another round of shooting or enables a countercharge. So I don't feel they'd suffer from a lack of stubborn.

Warpsolution:

Yeah, grugni+stoic thane w xbows, then hammerers. Makes the thane an even more inviting target, but its an interesting possibility. I'm toying around with lists based employing it now.

Thanks for the help guys!

Generally speaking what are good unit sizes and formations to take on the following:

Quarrelers (40 in a horde with GW?)

Hammerers (assuming I don't take the 12" stubborn run on them, but do put my meat-shield lord in there)

Ironbreakers

Irondrakes

Quarrelers in a huge horde means either a huge frontage or a lot of models not shooting.
I think 15 is as small as you can go; you need a few extra bodies so you can swing back in combat. No deeper than 3 ranks, as a general rule. I wouldn't go bigger than 20ish, though.

Most people run Hammerers 10-wide, for tons of S6 goodness. They aren't any more resilient to shooting than regular Warriors, so you usually need quite a few. Even in a MMU style list, I'd be nervous to take less than 20.
I think you could easily run them in a smaller frontage, too. You'll still be hitting plenty hard, and, more importantly, you'll lose less models.

Ironbreakers could form a huge rock-solid anvil or a small independent unit. At least 15, though. Those guys can take a charge on the chin like no other (especially with the Rune of Stoicism). And if you can get them into an enemy flank, That enemy isn't going anywhere for a good while.

Irondrakes are weird. Similar to Quarrelers, though. You're spending 15pts on a model with a sweet shooting attack. No sense in paying for ranks that wont' be able to shoot. 10 of them are way more durable than most chaff can handle, but still fairly cheap and versatile. 15-20 make a good candidate for the full kit (full command, Torpedo, Rune of Slowness X2).

OK I think I'm getting it.

What frontage should I run for Irondrakes and Quarralers if they were 20 man units, 10 wide to get everyone shooting every turn?

Also, what main banner runes should I take, in terms of the big expensive ones that only hammerers and the BSB can take?

I am thinking Valaya on the Hammerers and Grungi+maybe a slow rune or something similar on the BSB.

Groth's seems good, but really when i look at it I won't have that many blocks running around even in higher point games, and there's always Stoicism for one or 2 units that might benefit from it.

Groth One-Eye is best used in a MSU/MMU scenario.

For missile troops, units of 20 would do well 10-wide or possibly 7-wide (the last 6 don't get to shoot, but it's better in certain scenarios when close combat looms).

Grungi is THE rune to take on your BSB. Consider: everyone wants their BSB to have a 4+ Ward save, right? Well this gives you that, and then gives a bubble 5+ versus shooting and magic for 15pts more! Always take it. Always.

Valaya is almost an auto-take, like Grungi. Groth beats it out in certain army lists, but beyond that, a 4+ to dispel is essential. Dwarf "anti-magic" really isn't all it's cracked up to be.
I've seen Sanctuary put to good use (especially combined with Grungi), as well as...I believe it's called the Ancestor Rune? The One Use Only one.

OK I like it.

Here's what I am thinking based on models that I like from both an aesthetic and fluffy/rules principal:

Lords/Heroes

Lord on shield bearer with great weapon, runes of 1+ armor/T6/W6/4+ ward

Thane with BSB, Grungi and shield.

Runesmith with rune of dispel

Runesmith with rune of dispel

Core

20 Quarrellers w/great weapons

20 Quarrellers w/great weapons

20 Quarrellers w/great weapons

Special

Cannon

Cannon

Gyro

Gyro

27 Hammerers
Full Command
Rune of Valaya

28 Ironbreakers
Full Command

Organ Gun
RoAccuracy
RoBurning

2929/3000
so I have 70 points left to spend.

Should I get a master engineer, and/or spread some more runes around?

I think this list wants Groth One Eye instead of Valaya, and some engineering runes. I like:

Cannon: forging
Cannon: forging and burning
Organ Gun: forging and accuracy

- You certainly have enough units to make good use of ol' One-Eye, that's for sure.

- Dwarf Cannons get so ridiculously good with the Rune of Forging. It's hardly even fair, honestly.

- that Dwarf Lord is quite the tank, but with M3, anything that he'd be especially useful against, he won't be able to come to grips with. If you can make him cheaper, I would. Many people just go wit a Thane as their General, for this very reason.

- I'd go minimum Core whenever possible to bulk out those awesome Special and Rare choices.
Two Gyrocopters is the absolute bare minimum, I'd say. And those Ironbreakers sure could use some Runes themselves.

I think I'll stick with Grungi and Valaya banner runes for now and try to mitigate my LD with strategy etc, seeing as Dwarfs have solid leadership to start, stubborn Hammerers and access to stubborn with RoStoic.

RE Hammerers, is it worth giving them the upgrade to shields? Seems like it opens up some other strategies with them, letting them take a charge from a hard hitting opponent like knights with lances more easily, then switching back to hammers on the next combat phase to turn the tide.

If the hammer is a 2 handed weapon you only get the shield bonus vs shooting, not in combat.

But it says they carry a hand weapon and a GW, so can't they choose which one to use at the start of each combat?

1. See p.89 of the BRB under "Close Combat Weapon".
A model cannot choose to to use a hand weapon if they have a special close combat weapon.

2. When a model is able to choose between weapons, they choose so at the start of each combat, not the start of each combat phase.
So, if you had, say, great weapons and halberds, you get to pick one at the beginning of the first combat phase, and then you have to use that until that combat is over.