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 Formosa wrote:

Like the Riptide, it IS the Tau super heavy, it has the same concept (assuming it was all real of course) behind it.

The only super-heavy tau doctrine will allow is one that flys (atleast till next year when forgeworld finally un-veils what the Tau Super Heavy ground unit they're releasing is going to be).

Also the riptide was conceived as a heavier weapons platform that could stand up to the increasingly hostile warzones the Firecaste was finding. The concept wasn't to build a super-heavy ground unit, which the tau frowned upon as being in-efficient (at the time they still thought like that).

That does raise the question of can a super-heavy power-armor can be built and "worn" in the traditional sense.

The only super heavy the tau doctrine "would" have allowed "was" a flying one, and I agree, however as you stated they encountered these things elsewhere, so they built an equivalent useing there own design ethic and technology, it is not a super heavy by imperial or other races standards but is by tau standards, it is literally a super heavy battlesuit.

As fair weaponry, they gave it the best area domination weapon they could, and have since started to adapt said weaponry with the other types of tides.

Compare a Leman Russ to a baneblade, now compare a battlesuit to a riptide, same concepts, take an already existing idea (tank or battlesuit respectively) and try to scale it up.

 Formosa wrote:
The only super heavy the tau doctrine "would" have allowed "was" a flying one, and I agree, however as you stated they encountered these things elsewhere, so they built an equivalent useing there own design ethic and technology, it is not a super heavy by imperial or other races standards but is by tau standards, it is literally a super heavy battlesuit.

As fair weaponry, they gave it the best area domination weapon they could, and have since started to adapt said weaponry with the other types of tides.

Compare a Leman Russ to a baneblade, now compare a battlesuit to a riptide, same concepts, take an already existing idea (tank or battlesuit respectively) and try to scale it up.

In the case of the Russ and baneblade, I believe the baneblade pre-dated the russ.

But scaling something up does not always make it a super-heavy by design. The Ork Mega-dread was meant to be a scaled up version of the normal dread but it is far from a super-heavy. According to the tau they just wanted a "heavy" battlesuit.

Also in the naming designation system for battlesuits, the "10" designation is heavy, with the Crisis "8" being the standard, and the stealth suits "2" being light. So no designation for a super-heavy battlesuit exists as of yet.

The Baneblade was an upscaled version of the battle tanks of that period though. Same essential idea.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The only super heavy the tau doctrine "would" have allowed "was" a flying one, and I agree, however as you stated they encountered these things elsewhere, so they built an equivalent useing there own design ethic and technology, it is not a super heavy by imperial or other races standards but is by tau standards, it is literally a super heavy battlesuit.

As fair weaponry, they gave it the best area domination weapon they could, and have since started to adapt said weaponry with the other types of tides.

Compare a Leman Russ to a baneblade, now compare a battlesuit to a riptide, same concepts, take an already existing idea (tank or battlesuit respectively) and try to scale it up.

In the case of the Russ and baneblade, I believe the baneblade pre-dated the russ.

But scaling something up does not always make it a super-heavy by design. The Ork Mega-dread was meant to be a scaled up version of the normal dread but it is far from a super-heavy. According to the tau they just wanted a "heavy" battlesuit.

Also in the naming designation system for battlesuits, the "10" designation is heavy, with the Crisis "8" being the standard, and the stealth suits "2" being light. So no designation for a super-heavy battlesuit exists as of yet.

I think what is being missed here is the distinction of what a super heavy is, im not referring to the unit type "super heavy" im referring to the massive gap in size, structure and cost, a Riptide is magnitudes harder to produce than a battlesuit, carries much much heavier weaponry but has the same basic design, right down to the way its piloted and operated, so they have basically got an existing vehicle and made it much more advanced in terms of design and production.

Look at it this way, on one hand you have a Sherman tank, a medium tank, now compare it to a challenger or abrams, in the thinking of the 2nd world war both would be considered super heavies as they far outclass the heavy tanks of the time, thus you look at the riptide and see it so far outstrips the "Sherman" of its time that it is considered a super heavy vehicle but without the ruleset.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
The Riptide itself appears to just be one big battlesuit-armor.

In the damocles anthology Straken had no problem taking out a riptide by stabbing his knife through a riptides neck and killing the wearer.

In the death watch RPG they also show that as far as crisis suits go, the head portion is just a helmate.

In a few of the novels, like Engine of Mork, they show stealth suits are simply just power-armor.

That is... very odd. The pilot's head is not in the head of a battlesuit, that is just where the visual sensor arrays are. It's just that tau use a sort of neural connection, so they pilot the suits with their minds. It would be very weird to get used to having eyes in your chest, so the sensors are in a head, which also means that the sensors have a range of movement.

Stealth suits are quite a bit like power armour, just with a ridiculous cloaking/invisibility device.

Also, killing the pilot of a riptide with a knife through the neck is silly. A sword through the body or a downward stab through the neck with a sword would have a pretty good chance of killing the pilot. A knife might be able to mess with the wiring of the suit, but it would not reach the user (unless it was a very long knife ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Like the Riptide, it IS the Tau super heavy, it has the same concept (assuming it was all real of course) behind it.

The only super-heavy tau doctrine will allow is one that flys (atleast till next year when forgeworld finally un-veils what the Tau Super Heavy ground unit they're releasing is going to be).

Also the riptide was conceived as a heavier weapons platform that could stand up to the increasingly hostile warzones the Firecaste was finding. The concept wasn't to build a super-heavy ground unit, which the tau frowned upon as being in-efficient (at the time they still thought like that).

That does raise the question of can a super-heavy power-armor can be built and "worn" in the traditional sense.

Well, crisis and up are not really worn, but the way they are piloted makes it similar. the suits are plugged into the tau pilot, and the suit is controlled by the pilot's mind. It's like the suit is an extension of the pilot's body, an combined with very sensitive motors, makes it move like a living thing. A bit like a mechanical limb, but your whole body.

My idea of a MC is that it is more agile and less specialized than a walker, where as a walker is designed for an express purpose such as Anti-Armor Anti-Infantry. I think of an MC mainly as a substitution of a squad, with a little beefing up

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
The Riptide itself appears to just be one big battlesuit-armor.

In the damocles anthology Straken had no problem taking out a riptide by stabbing his knife through a riptides neck and killing the wearer.

In the death watch RPG they also show that as far as crisis suits go, the head portion is just a helmate.

In a few of the novels, like Engine of Mork, they show stealth suits are simply just power-armor.

That is... very odd. The pilot's head is not in the head of a battlesuit, that is just where the visual sensor arrays are. It's just that tau use a sort of neural connection, so they pilot the suits with their minds. It would be very weird to get used to having eyes in your chest, so the sensors are in a head, which also means that the sensors have a range of movement.

Stealth suits are quite a bit like power armour, just with a ridiculous cloaking/invisibility device.

Also, killing the pilot of a riptide with a knife through the neck is silly. A sword through the body or a downward stab through the neck with a sword would have a pretty good chance of killing the pilot. A knife might be able to mess with the wiring of the suit, but it would not reach the user (unless it was a very long knife ).

I was wrong. From what it said in the Damocles Anthology Straken

"plunged a metallic arm deep into the battlesuit's neck joint, rooting around before yanking half of a bloody tau head from the aperture he had torn in its metal hide."

That makes more sense. Although still a bit silly.

Aren't pretty much all walkers of the crisis suit, riptide, kan, deff dredd, dreadnaught, Imperial knight, titan variety controlled by a mind link system anyway? Seems like a pretty ubiquitous technology!

 PhillyT wrote:
Aren't pretty much all walkers of the crisis suit, riptide, kan, deff dredd, dreadnaught, Imperial knight, titan variety controlled by a mind link system anyway? Seems like a pretty ubiquitous technology!

Kans and Ork Dreads use a mix of technology. It can be anything from being wired into the machine to literally using levers, pedals and buttons to control the machine.

A better question is why is the Soul Grinder (a unit that is 90% daemon) a walker and not a monsterous creature?

Basically what is more of a MC, a Soul Grinder or a Riptide?
Pretty goddamn silly isnt it?

rules wise the soulgrinder is clearly a vehicle because at the time they didn't want yet another MC and it added variety, in universe, its bloody stupid

The soul-grinder in the lore is meant to be a daemon engine, all of which are walkers and a unique blend of daemon and machinery.

Its also supposed to be similar to the Defiler or it just happens to share the same lower body with it for some odd reason.

The Soul Grinder is one of those classifications that surprised me like the Lord of Skulls.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Aren't pretty much all walkers of the crisis suit, riptide, kan, deff dredd, dreadnaught, Imperial knight, titan variety controlled by a mind link system anyway? Seems like a pretty ubiquitous technology!

Kans and Ork Dreads use a mix of technology. It can be anything from being wired into the machine to literally using levers, pedals and buttons to control the machine.

Those are the exception thrown in to allow players flexibility. The vast majority use a mind linking system.

Stompa on the other hand are crewed like a vehicle.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Like the Riptide, it IS the Tau super heavy, it has the same concept (assuming it was all real of course) behind it.

The only super-heavy tau doctrine will allow is one that flys (atleast till next year when forgeworld finally un-veils what the Tau Super Heavy ground unit they're releasing is going to be).

Also the riptide was conceived as a heavier weapons platform that could stand up to the increasingly hostile warzones the Firecaste was finding. The concept wasn't to build a super-heavy ground unit, which the tau frowned upon as being in-efficient (at the time they still thought like that).

That does raise the question of can a super-heavy power-armor can be built and "worn" in the traditional sense.

pretty much all titans are controlled by a Mind link interface, so I imagine that becomes almost a requirement with super heavy walkers beyond a certin point

BrianDavion wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Like the Riptide, it IS the Tau super heavy, it has the same concept (assuming it was all real of course) behind it.

The only super-heavy tau doctrine will allow is one that flys (atleast till next year when forgeworld finally un-veils what the Tau Super Heavy ground unit they're releasing is going to be).

Also the riptide was conceived as a heavier weapons platform that could stand up to the increasingly hostile warzones the Firecaste was finding. The concept wasn't to build a super-heavy ground unit, which the tau frowned upon as being in-efficient (at the time they still thought like that).

That does raise the question of can a super-heavy power-armor can be built and "worn" in the traditional sense.

pretty much all titans are controlled by a Mind link interface, so I imagine that becomes almost a requirement with super heavy walkers beyond a certin point

Except Ork and perhaps chaos ones. Actually does daemonic possession count as mind link ? Somethings mind is technically running the machine but im not sure if its really comparable to how the imperium and eldar interface with their titans.

 Formosa wrote:
rules wise the soulgrinder is clearly a vehicle because at the time they didn't want yet another MC and it added variety, in universe, its bloody stupid

Technology.

Orks, Space Marines, Daemons, and the IG have crappy tech, so they get Walkers.

Grey Knights, Eldar, and Tau have good tech, so they get MCs.

Isn't that easy to see?

Daemon technology outstrips and outperforms a lot of the mortal races. It just seems more primitive because that's the form it takes if it can even be called technology.

As for the Tau and Greyknight technology is only good because those factions all have minuscule numbers and don't have to worry about the logistics of out-fitting sprawling, vast armies. Meanwhile the Guard and Orks are without number so not everyone is going to have the best technology. The Imperium doesn't have the resources for that and Orks go for the simplest solution first and work their way up. (fists, then choppa then something bigger).

Also, the soul grinder has too many legs to be considered a MC. Its meant to share characteristics with its Defiler and Brass Scorpion counterparts.

But just for reference, which did GW introduce first. The Defiler or Soul Grinder ?

To add to the Riptide debate, I can't quote page as I don't remember where it came from. (tau codex or FE:supplement) but all battlesuits are wired into the pilots nervous system which is also part of the the suits security measures(a guy in gants ghosts gets cooked alive trying to steal a crisis suit) so that it should be assumed any structural damage to the suit is received by the pilots brain and would likely feel it just as a normal wound would.


It would also represent how such a machine is more liable to small arms fire whilst having a high armor rating, sure it will bounce most fire off, but just like power armor weak points can still be seriously damaged. If t where a vehicle it would likely be av13 or 14 front, and we all know that would be a pain to deal with.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Daemon technology outstrips and outperforms a lot of the mortal races. It just seems more primitive because that's the form it takes if it can even be called technology.

As for the Tau and Greyknight technology is only good because those factions all have minuscule numbers and don't have to worry about the logistics of out-fitting sprawling, vast armies. Meanwhile the Guard and Orks are without number so not everyone is going to have the best technology. The Imperium doesn't have the resources for that and Orks go for the simplest solution first and work their way up. (fists, then choppa then something bigger).

Also, the soul grinder has too many legs to be considered a MC. Its meant to share characteristics with its Defiler and Brass Scorpion counterparts.

But just for reference, which did GW introduce first. The Defiler or Soul Grinder ?

The Tau have a vast army that is all-around well-armed and armored. Grey Knights, sure... but the Tau just have a better all-around tech base. Pulse rifles are just as common as lasguns.Their version of carapace armor is standard-issue.

I thought the difference between the two was to do with how 'alive' they see. Things like a Riptide or a Dreadknight are more like an extension of the pilot and behave in a similar way that a large, living thing would. While Dreadnoughts are also linked to the person inside, they slow, cumbersome, machine-like in their movement and their interactions with the world around them are more limited.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Daemon technology outstrips and outperforms a lot of the mortal races. It just seems more primitive because that's the form it takes if it can even be called technology.

As for the Tau and Greyknight technology is only good because those factions all have minuscule numbers and don't have to worry about the logistics of out-fitting sprawling, vast armies. Meanwhile the Guard and Orks are without number so not everyone is going to have the best technology. The Imperium doesn't have the resources for that and Orks go for the simplest solution first and work their way up. (fists, then choppa then something bigger).

Also, the soul grinder has too many legs to be considered a MC. Its meant to share characteristics with its Defiler and Brass Scorpion counterparts.

But just for reference, which did GW introduce first. The Defiler or Soul Grinder ?

The Tau have a vast army that is all-around well-armed and armored. Grey Knights, sure... but the Tau just have a better all-around tech base. Pulse rifles are just as common as lasguns.Their version of carapace armor is standard-issue.

None of those sstatements are true.

Tau have a vast army: by today's standards sure, by 40k standards, not even remotely.
Tau have an all round better tech base: by this you mean purely low level fire warrior, they are out teched in almost every way by gk, read my previous post on the matter.
Pulse rifle are just as common as lasguns: are you serious? There are enough lasguns to outnumber the whole tau race several times over. Billions or even trillions.
Carapace armour is standarnd equipment: it is for guard too, millions upon millions of guard wear it, more I'd wager than the entire tau military combined.

 Formosa wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Daemon technology outstrips and outperforms a lot of the mortal races. It just seems more primitive because that's the form it takes if it can even be called technology.

As for the Tau and Greyknight technology is only good because those factions all have minuscule numbers and don't have to worry about the logistics of out-fitting sprawling, vast armies. Meanwhile the Guard and Orks are without number so not everyone is going to have the best technology. The Imperium doesn't have the resources for that and Orks go for the simplest solution first and work their way up. (fists, then choppa then something bigger).

Also, the soul grinder has too many legs to be considered a MC. Its meant to share characteristics with its Defiler and Brass Scorpion counterparts.

But just for reference, which did GW introduce first. The Defiler or Soul Grinder ?

The Tau have a vast army that is all-around well-armed and armored. Grey Knights, sure... but the Tau just have a better all-around tech base. Pulse rifles are just as common as lasguns.Their version of carapace armor is standard-issue.

None of those sstatements are true.

Tau have a vast army: by today's standards sure, by 40k standards, not even remotely.
Tau have an all round better tech base: by this you mean purely low level fire warrior, they are out teched in almost every way by gk, read my previous post on the matter.
Pulse rifle are just as common as lasguns: are you serious? There are enough lasguns to outnumber the whole tau race several times over. Billions or even trillions.
Carapace armour is standarnd equipment: it is for guard too, millions upon millions of guard wear it, more I'd wager than the entire tau military combined.

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Fire Caste outnumbers the Space Marines several times over- which means yes, they have a vast army. They likely outnumber the Eldar, what with their "dying race" status.

GK are better equipped... but there are only, what, a thousand of them for the countless trillions of humanity? I'm not sure comparing the elite of the elite of the elite of humanity to your average Fire Warrior is all that fair- and either way, the Riptide is a better piece of gear than a Dreadknight. I'm not sure anyone, no matter how off their rocker, is going to come here and say the Dreadknight is a superior machine to the XV-104.

Every Fire Warrior has a pulse rifle or carbine (depending on open or close-in fighting). Humanity can't even afford to give bolters to all of its ground troops, and bolters suck in every way compared to a pulse rifle.

Carapace armor isn't standard for IG- the flak jacket is. Looking at the new Codex, it seems that there's no longer an option (I swear there was in 5th, but could be wrong) to upgrade standard Guard or Vets to Carapace armor.

The armor the AM gives to its most elite warriors is standard-issue for Tau troops. Not the elite- Joe Fire Warrior has it.

If it was somehow decided by the Imperium that every single loyal space marine had to be killed by the Imperial Guard, they could literally kill them with the bodies of guardsmen. Sending so many waves of totally unarmed (and unarmored) guardsmen at them that that marines drown in blood or are overrun my naked, unarmed dudes, and subsequently torn apart.

This wouldn't much of a dent in the Imperial Guard's numbers either. There are less marines than their are worlds in the Imperium, yet each world in the Imperium gives up millions of Guardsmen in tithe.

So, basically, the Guard could wipe out the Tau Empire by shooting themselves out of torpedo tubes and nakedly bum-rushing the firing-line if they were so inclined, but the Imperium has much more pressing matters.


EDIT: So far as Joe Firewarrior vs the elite of the Imperial Guard goes, you're right. Joe the Cannon-fodder Firewarrior does have a much better weapon and better armor standard than the average guardsmen have.

It's damned unfortunate that the number of elite IG vets equipped with Carapace Armor and wielding Plasma Guns is greater than that of standard firewarriors by more than 100 fold. Ye' basic firewarrior may be equipped upto par with IG elites.. But there are more IG elites than there are basic firewarriors by a significant margin. Quantity is a quality all its own.

There are also some regiments that have carapace armor as standard, like the Elysians. It depends on how wealthy or in favor with the mechanicus the world in question is.

As for the dreadknight I am unsure of how advance it might really be given the Greyknights are said to utillize technology the wider imperium will probably never see. The area it is for sure more advanced than the riptide in is the fact that is has a teleport beacon and carries potent force-psychic weaponry of which the tau who have no concept of psychic power, do not possess.

Also they weren't conceived for the same purpose so comparing the technology cant entirely be done. The Riptide was made to be a heavier battle-suit capable of keeping up with the demands of an escalating battlefield (after the tau started discovering what super-heavy war-engines were).The Dreadknight was conceived to fight the towering greater daemons, daemon princes and daemon-engines that emerge from a warp incursion and was made to do it in hand to hand, something the tau would shy away from.

Its hard to tell about Imperial technology. Outwardly it looks (and may be in a lot of cases) inferior to some of its xenos counter-parts but this can be deceptive.

It also brings up an interesting point about warp-stuff. Warp-stuff isn't really tech, it's space-magic, but it is often used to compare technology. But then we have the necrons, also have no warp technology, but is still the most advanced race.

With the tau vs imperium tech argument, I revert to this. If you look at average tau and imperial tech, tau tech is often (but no always) more advanced, and usually stronger, cheaper, and more efficient. However when we look at maximum technology the imperium wins. The Tau species has existed for a tiny fraction of time. the empire for even less. The human race is tens of thousands of years old, and has had much longer to progress. We also have to understand, that more technological advanced does not necessarily mean more powerful. Imperial titans are more technologically advanced than a tiger shark AX-1-0 from what I understand (I'm not quite sure of the tech level on the tau side), but the tiger shark will almost always either win, or just not lose (tau appear to have taken the imperial approach with it's weapons, as big as it possibly can be).

I'd say that even if the dreadknight is more technologically advanced than the riptide, it's is less powerful than it at anything other than it's main purpose, simply because of it's bad design, if nothing else. It leaves it driver open to attack, even when wearing GK magic armour that's a horrible idea. The riptide could probably disable it in one ion acc blast, by vaporizing the occupant.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It also brings up an interesting point about warp-stuff. Warp-stuff isn't really tech, it's space-magic, but it is often used to compare technology. But then we have the necrons, also have no warp technology, but is still the most advanced race.

With the tau vs imperium tech argument, I revert to this. If you look at average tau and imperial tech, tau tech is often (but no always) more advanced, and usually stronger, cheaper, and more efficient. However when we look at maximum technology the imperium wins. The Tau species has existed for a tiny fraction of time. the empire for even less. The human race is tens of thousands of years old, and has had much longer to progress. We also have to understand, that more technological advanced does not necessarily mean more powerful. Imperial titans are more technologically advanced than a tiger shark AX-1-0 from what I understand (I'm not quite sure of the tech level on the tau side), but the tiger shark will almost always either win, or just not lose (tau appear to have taken the imperial approach with it's weapons, as big as it possibly can be).

I'd say that even if the dreadknight is more technologically advanced than the riptide, it's is less powerful than it at anything other than it's main purpose, simply because of it's bad design, if nothing else. It leaves it driver open to attack, even when wearing GK magic armour that's a horrible idea. The riptide could probably disable it in one ion acc blast, by vaporizing the occupant.

How do we know it is cheaper there is no evidence supporting this. As for efficiency the Imperiums tools are literally THE model of efficiency, runs off anything, charges from anything, mass produces an entire army worth of supplies on a daily, maybe hourly basis.

I think the Dreadknight has a personal force-field.

Also the Riptide is an expensive investment according to the Tau Codex. The materials to manufacture them are difficult to acquire and that is one of the reasons the riptide is said to be a "rare commodity" in the codex.

basicly what the Tau have thats better then the IoM is a "high logistics network" and this is more a matter of efficancy of scale. the Tau are currently small eneugh that shipping the best tech they can make and keeping their troops awesomely outfitted is a realistic option.

the IoM is so sprawling that this becomes troublesome. and thus the technology you see on their line troops TENDS to be more about allowing efficancy of production and deployment rather then anything is. is the Lasgun the best weapon the IoM can make? no. it's simply the most effective to deploy across the entire IoM. it's not even their best "quick and dirty mass production" gun.