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 Exergy wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Not sure the Rangers are obviously better. They cost 20 points more and have a slightly longer range bolter with AP4. Precision shots are nice, but you have to have a target for them. A lot of armies dont run special weapons troopers. Other armies run MSU where essentially every trooper is a special weapon troopers.
The Vanguard's rad gun is awesomeness. Assault 3 and wound doubling. These guys will put a hurt on anything with a toughness value. They also give their enemy -1T in assault, which isnt great but helps a bit.

You make some good points. Rad gun is only S3 though, which yes is mitigated by their special rule with 6s counting as double wounds. But their range is also only 18. And it is AP5 rather than AP4.
Rangers make more sense for holding objectives or hanging back a bit as their regular gun hits things from 30 inches away. And yes precision shot isn't always useful, but in cases it can be pretty damn helpful. And AP4 of course negates armor saves that some armies have, whereas AP5 would not.
If Skitarii are in pods, I say Vanguard all the way because they are cheaper and in close range. But I definitely see a use for the Rangers elsewhere.

Vanguard 18" is the problem. Being str3 is completely mitigated by RoF and the wound doubling.

Against T3 T4 and T5 you are getting the same number of wounds as Str4
Against T6+ you are getting double the wounds of Str4

But it's assault 3! 50% more shots than a rapid fire weapon in rapid fire range, but out to 18" instead of 12.

Hmm, you actually crunched the numbers. The Rad Carbines are better than I thought!

Wait, did you crunch the numbers? The following is mostly for my own benefit lol.

12 hits, with generic S4 gun
S4 at T3: 8 wounds
S4 at T4: 6 wounds
S4 at T5: 4 wounds
S3 at T6: 2 wounds

12 hits, Rad carbine:
S3 at T3: I have no idea how to do the math on this. Let's see. On average two sixes will be rolled, so that's 4 wounds. Plus any 4 or 5s rolled, which would occur 1/3 of the time. 1/3 of 12 is another 4. 4+ 4 is 8.

S3 at T4: Again, 4 wounds from the 6s rolled. Plus any 5s rolled, which happens 1/6 of the time. So twice with 12 rolls. So that equals 6 total.
S3 at T5: 4 wounds from 6s. Since only 6 wounds it is 4 total.
S3 at T6-T9000: 4 wounds from the 6s

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
You know, this is occurring to me really late, but the base Vanguard guns causing 2-auto-wounds ignoring toughness, on sixes is going to just decimate certain troublesome units. Wraithknights, and half of the Tyranid Codex are gonna be crying.

yeah, but unless their save is 5+ or worse, they will be fearing Eldar Shurkiens more. Those also autowound on a 6 but also ignore saves. A 3+ save MC would much rather take 2 wounds they can save rather than 1 wound they cannot save.

 Exergy wrote:
Agreed they are terrible in CC. They might need some sort of CC babysitter. They kind of remind me of forgefiends, which are a little better in CC but still rather bad.

The Eradication beamer is wholly disapointing. You likely will never be at the correct range to get the shot you want. For the pieplate, it's an expensive whirlwind with no way to remove cover. For the small blast, it's like an expensive Noise Marine sonic blaster that doesnt ignore cover. For the single shot, dam you are close at 9" away. A multimelta is better at that range, except in ability to ID T5 things.

It's even worse when you consider that you can (still, AFAIK) bring a 5-man Legion of the Damned squad with a MM, Plasma Gun and combi-plas for 160 points, and they're all Relentless (SnP actually, which is pretty close). More importantly, if you want close range anti-armor, that MM+Plas+Combi-plas unit can do a Turn 1 DS, that re-rolls scatter, and at 12" can pump 4 S7/AP2 and one S8/AP1/Armorbane shot into rear armor, and all of those shots ignore cover. Suck on that, Serpent Spam!

That might actually be a good way to supplement an otherwise pure Skitarii force, to get some backfield shenanigans going.

 Exergy wrote:
The safety in numbers thing will be interesting. 3 of them getting a 4++ doesnt sound bad, but once they start to lose one it starts going downhill.

If the shield extends to other units, they will be much better than if not. Particularly with those large bases, a 4" bubble is a lot of realestate

Yeah, unfortunately there isn't much information about the shield... from the relevant rumor thread it seems like each Onager starts with a 6++ and gets a +1 invuln bonus for each other Onager within 4" of it- which also means that they'll want to be deployed in a triangular formation so as to make sure they get the +2 for a 4++- but there's nothing else about it.

I do agree, it would be positively awesome if the Onager's shield extended that 4++ to anybody within the bubble formed by the Onagers.

 Exergy wrote:
The ruststalkers are a little nastier in CC, particularly against things with 2+ saves that you might be able to last against for a second round....(broadsides?) most other things are probably gonna wipe them before they get to round 2, unless you have another unit there to tank hits.

The rustalkers have grenades though. Really tasty grenades that are both assault grenades and haywire grenades. And they can be thrown for 4+ to wound blast. It's like the best grenade ever given to a squad(psycotrope).

Ruststalkers are better in combat, certainly- the real bonus, IMO, is combining that with the debuff of the Infiltrator's Neurostatic Aura, as this means that common GEQ, for example, are reduced to WS/I 2 and Ld7 at best! Not only will you hit them on fours, but it's possible that the Ruststalkers will only be hit on 5s, which is really impressive.

That said... the Infiltrator+Ruststalker (or Infiltrator+Dragoon) shenanigans that are possible will really be heavily dependent on whether or not the Neurostatic Aura stacks- it's not entirely clear if it does or not. Also, I second that the Ruststalker's unique grenades are awesome- they'll basically end up being on the level of the old 5th-Ed DE book's Wyches with Haywire grenades.

 ultimentra wrote:
I'm really liking the sound of a squadron of 3 Onagers with Neutron. First turn, turn on that BS7 and your S10AP1 blasts will very likely hit whatever they are trying to hit. You would literally have to roll a 9+ on your 2D6 scatter to not hit what you centered the blast on, vehicles are large too so there's that.

I would say the tactic with the Rust Stalkers is pretty self-explanatory. Get them to combat, and first round doesn't matter much. Turn on that +3 or +2 WS ability on the second round so your now AP2 attacks are hitting on 3s against the targets they are made to attack- WS 4 or below infantry. These guys aren't going to kill MCs or high WS stuff like Lictors I think. The Synergy mentioned with the Infiltrators is pretty interesting, I look forward to seeing the first battle reports on youtube.

Against MCs you can combine the Infiltrator's Neurostatic Aura and a charge of Sydonian Dragoons to get WS4 S8/I6 attacks (4 apiece on the charge, IIRC), and most MCs will be reduced to WS3.

Against a WK, for example, you'll push it down to WS3/I4, and say 3 Dragoons charge it, you'll get 4x3=12 attacks, at S8, hitting on 3+, so 8 hits, 4 wounds due to S8 vs T8- unfortunately Taser Lances are AP-, so you'll have a little bit of a harder time getting through. Of course, you'll also average around, say, 2 6's doing so, so you'll actually push up to I think 4 extra hits, so a total of 6 wounds, going against 3+ armor for 2 wounds inflicted.

.....Which actually doesn't sound nearly as awesome as it started out in my head. Le sigh.

At least the Dragoons will wreck 90% of things with an AV- you'll probably crack open any AV12-front armor walker in the game, and you'd definitely kill any AV10-rear vehicle on the charge... come to think of it, Dragoons might actually be a better counter to Wave Serpents than a Haywire drop.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
You know, this is occurring to me really late, but the base Vanguard guns causing 2-auto-wounds ignoring toughness, on sixes is going to just decimate certain troublesome units. Wraithknights, and half of the Tyranid Codex are gonna be crying.

Statistically speaking, you'll put around 2 unsaved wounds onto a T6/3+ armor MC that way. Not super impressive, though it is nice. I'd say that most T6 MCs aren't going to much care about Radium Carbines- anything with Bladestorm is honestly a lot scarier to a Carnifex or something than Radium Carbines, since Bladestorm get to auto-wound with AP2.

Of course, statistically speaking, you'll also put around 2 unsaved wounds onto a T8 MC like the Wraithknight, which is much more impressive.

How about the chicken walkers? Is either viable? I don't know enough to make a call.

On the whole... I think that the Ironstrider Ballistarii- the HS variant- will be overshadowed by the Onager.

However, given that both the Ironstrider and the Dragoon are relatively cheap, the Skitarii Maniple detachment actually gets 4 HS slots, and Onagers are going to want to be squadroned up to get that 4++ for themselves, they might be a viable way to get some heavy weapons on the field.

For anti-air duty AC Ironstriders look good... but they're really a "trap" unit for that role. Onagers can get a hugely awesome and shooty weapon system that's all about Skyfire, so Ironstriders- which only really get AA duty because they fire Snap Shots at BS2, and all their guns are twin-linked- are completely overshadowed in that regard.

LC Ironstriders might be one of the only practical ways to bring economic AP2/AP1, high-strength shooting to the army. OTOH, the basic AC Ironstrider is a capable platform, and given that mass S7 is generally better for killing... anything really... I feel like the LC Ironstrider will likely be left in the dust anyways.

For the Sydonian Dragoons... hot damn these things are badass! You end up with around 4 S8 Initiative 6 attacks on the charge, and in subsequent rounds you get- I think- 3 S7 attacks. Any kind of AV12 or poorer vehicle that they end up in combat with is absolutely screwed, and with the mass of S8 strikes- plus the benefits of Taser- you'll be putting an enormous pain on any T4 multi-wound infantry, and any T6 MCs.

Oh, and Dragoons get Phosphor Serpentas to more reliably charge things and reduce cover saves! You could trade your Taser Lance for a Radium Jezzail- a double tapping Sniper version of the Radium Carbine- but I rather doubt that that's going to be a generally practical trade. The Taser Lance's mass of S8 attacks on the charge is simply too awesome.

Combine that with the 3" movement bonus to any move it makes, and you have a fast cavalry walker. Season to taste with Sicarian Infiltrators to reduce the WS/I of anything you want them to charge; season with Ruststalkers to help them get out of combat (by murdering the piss out of whatever they charged) and then go charge something else!

The nice thing about the Sydonian Dragoons is really that they're the only FA unit- while you only get two FA slots, there is literally only one unit to stick in there, so there's no slot competition.

I mean, with the Skitarii Maniple Detachment there's not really any slot competition going on- a little bit in Elites if you want to try for MSU Infiltrators or Ruststalkers, but for everything else- Onagers want to be in big squads, 8 max Troop slots means that it has to get to ridiculous levels to wonder whether or not you should bring Vanguards or Rangers, while, as mentioned, Dragoons are the only thing in FA.

Overall, I'd say that for the most part, the Onager ends up being a better weapon platform- it's AV12/12/11, 3HPs, it's not open topped, and it gets a fancy shield rule for a 4++ if all three are within 4" coherency of each other.

Dragoons though... yeah, I'd say that they have some definite uses. They might be paper thin, but they're economical (point-wise) little buggers that'll wreck face once they get into combat.

TBH, I think Dragoons might be a fantastic Serpent killer- just two Dragoons will dump 8x S8 attacks on the charge, and even with a 50% hitrate, you'll generally strip around 3 HPs just from S8 vs AV10- most of those hits will actually be pens, but when you're punching hard enough to hull out a vehicle in a single round of combat, in no longer matters if you're getting pens.

Dragoons also get a fancy 5+ cover save built-in, so they're a little bit tougher while they close the gap.

For anti-air duty AC Ironstriders look good... but they're really a "trap" unit for that role. Onagers can get a hugely awesome and shooty weapon system that's all about Skyfire, so Ironstriders- which only really get AA duty because they fire Snap Shots at BS2, and all their guns are twin-linked- are completely overshadowed in that regard.

I don't see it as a trap so much as a "secondary role" you don't take an ironstrider as your anti-air. you can however if you have one, use it in that role. basicly I'd never take an ironstrider specificly for anti-air (skitarii have a dedicated platform) but I'd certinly shoot at a flier if I had one anyway

Im jealous. Where are you all getting these rules from? Google searches only give me german translations!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The dex isn't avaliable even for pre-order on the site yet...

Are these in WDs?

I was under the impression the "Orders" or doctrines affected your entire army. So boosting WS by 2 and dropping BS by 2 for a turn would need to be planned out. It's great if you nuke your opponents anti CC unit, or even deathstar in 1 turn, but if you gimp the rest of your army idk if it will be a valuable trade-off.

This army really feels like a great allied force as opposed to a viable standalone army. They will be able to fill in holes in other codices such as AA with that Icarus Missile Launcher, or AP2 fire with the Assault 3 plasma guns. I guess we just need an allies matrix for them to see how they will interact with Dedicated Transports.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Im jealous. Where are you all getting these rules from? Google searches only give me german translations!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The dex isn't avaliable even for pre-order on the site yet...

Are these in WDs?

Check the relevant rumor thread on the appropriate board; the current Ruststalker/Infiltrator rules are on pages 92/93, along with some of the info for Onagers, but I don't really know where the rest are aside from "in that thread", unfortunately.

And yes, the rules are currently being either straight leaked or coming from WD leaks.

 Wingeds wrote:
I was under the impression the "Orders" or doctrines affected your entire army. So boosting WS by 2 and dropping BS by 2 for a turn would need to be planned out. It's great if you nuke your opponents anti CC unit, or even deathstar in 1 turn, but if you gimp the rest of your army idk if it will be a valuable trade-off.

This army really feels like a great allied force as opposed to a viable standalone army. They will be able to fill in holes in other codices such as AA with that Icarus Missile Launcher, or AP2 fire with the Assault 3 plasma guns. I guess we just need an allies matrix for them to see how they will interact with Dedicated Transports.

In regards to the "Doctrina Imperatives" rule, then yes, it's a one-use, one-turn effect across the entire army. So you would be correct- for the higher effects, it'll require a lot of planning out. However, it's not a straight "-2 WS and +2 BS" or vice versa; it's actually a graduated scale:

So comparing the two, the bonus is usually slightly better than the equivalent penalty.

Also, it's worth noting that Skitarii are almost certainly classified as "Imperium of Man", and thus will be Battle Brothers with all the Imperial armies. So yes, SW/BA Rent-A-Pods are a go.

Not nearly as stylish as used camels, though.

Thanks Whisky!

Poly Ranger wrote:
Thanks Whisky!

I second that. Thanks Whiskey!

Weird that I am saying that to a human rather than my drink lol. First time for everything.



PS - Still can't decide if it is better to field more Rangers or more Vanguard. The 30 inch range on the Rangers' gun (pun not intended) is nice but the most common pick for a special weapon will probably be the Arc Rifle. Which is 24 inches rather than 30. Yeah the plasma can be good, especially with the doctrines, and the sniper rifle can be good, but the arc rifles are so much cheaper, especially considering people will probably field 3 specials per ten man squad. So Rangers are going to want to be within 24. Vanguard wants to be within 18. Not a huge difference. And ten man Ranger squads are 20 points more per squad than Vanguard squads. Decisions, decisions...

I think that ultimately Rangers vs Vanguard will actually be a case of personal preference/playstyle, the meta of your group, or just striking a balance between them.

Rangers do have the advantage that they're probably a better pick for parking on a backfield objective, as with a 30" basic gun they're more likely to be able to contribute few potshots to the battle. The Galvanic Rifles also synergize a bit better with the Transuranic Arquebus (which has probably the coolest name of any gun in 40K).

Rangers do also get Move through Cover, so on boards with lots of area terrain they might end up being an overall better pick.

OTOH, if you face lots of 3+ armor MCs (like Wraithknights) then the 2 auto-wounds on a 6 that Radium Carbines give will probably be more valuable than 30" AP4 and Precision Shots.

A lot of people seem to be assuming that all Onager Dunestriders get the shield, but I thought it was part of one of the weapon-upgrades (the AA one, if I recall correctly).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just noticed that a Ruststalker Princeps with two transonic blades can also get an extra chordclaw. That seems rather pointless; he doesn't get another bonus attack from a third weapon, does he?

 Perfect Organism wrote:
A lot of people seem to be assuming that all Onager Dunestriders get the shield, but I thought it was part of one of the weapon-upgrades (the AA one, if I recall correctly).

After looking at the rumor thread where the bit about the Onager was posted... it's not really clear. It seems like it might be part of the AA package- which actually wouldn't be that bad, because it'd be a good anti-WS platform that way- but it might be a separate option.

Truth be told, I think it would be perfectly reasonable for it to be a separate option.

 Perfect Organism wrote:
Just noticed that a Ruststalker Princeps with two transonic blades can also get an extra chordclaw. That seems rather pointless; he doesn't get another bonus attack from a third weapon, does he?

Chordclaws let you roll a separate attack that has Fleshbane. The wording of the rules for the Chordclaw is... not quite clear, IMO. It seems at first like you take one of the normal attacks of a model, and roll that attack separately, since it has the Fleshbane rule in addition to the Transonic rule. OTOH... it says specifically to "roll this attack separately", so does that mean you'll roll for attacks as normal- except deducting an attack to allow for the Chordclaw- and then roll for the Chordclaw's Fleshbane attack, OR, do you get a separate attack not included in the model's profile that is rolled for in the same sort of order?

Depending on the interpretation, it could mean that Chordclaws actually confer an entire extra attack that's not part of the model's profile. Which would actually be pretty nice for the Ruststalker Princeps if he gets into a challenge. However, if it's that you basically just get to split up your attacks, it's not quite as nice for a Princeps to take.

And then it gets really hairy, because how do the Chordclaws interact with Transonic Blades? The Blades give +1S, while Chordclaws confer the Molecular Dissonance rule to get the previously mentioned Fleshbane attack... but neither one is a Specialist Weapon, so presumably they're just two CCWs, relatively speaking. Adding to the complication, the Prehensile Dataspike wargear explicitly provides an additional attack (and at I10 with Haywire no less!)... but the Chordclaw isn't cut-and-dried that it does (or does not) do so.

Also, totally irrelevant, but I just read the description of the Mindscrambler Grenades.

It's a grenade that is actually (at least in part) the eggsac of a squid. I find the thought that my little machine men are throwing the equivalent of sushi at tanks and blowing them up to be... amusing, to say the least.

Doing the math I would rather take a 10 man unit of rangers with 3 arc rifles infiltrate and scout for like 10 more points than the 5 man with 5 arc shoots

I'm just glad that they have a 40mm base size unit so I can use my Thallax as a proxy. Will likely sub them in for Infiltrators, even though I really like the infiltrator heads.

Whiskey144 wrote:
I think that ultimately Rangers vs Vanguard will actually be a case of personal preference/playstyle, the meta of your group, or just striking a balance between them.

Rangers do have the advantage that they're probably a better pick for parking on a backfield objective, as with a 30" basic gun they're more likely to be able to contribute few potshots to the battle. The Galvanic Rifles also synergize a bit better with the Transuranic Arquebus (which has probably the coolest name of any gun in 40K).

Rangers do also get Move through Cover, so on boards with lots of area terrain they might end up being an overall better pick.

Vanguard just to soo much more damage to things not in 4+ armor, and a lot of the game has armor other than 4+

I think you want enough Vanguard to scout up the field and press the enemy, but a few rangers to sit a little further back and try and snipe out a special weapons or two.

If I were taking 50, I would have 30 Vanguard easily, maybe 40.

And for Vanguard, there is not much reason to take anything but arc rifles. Plasma is nice, but too pricey and the Carbines should help you with anti infantry enough. TDA isnt that prevalent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:
A lot of people seem to be assuming that all Onager Dunestriders get the shield, but I thought it was part of one of the weapon-upgrades (the AA one, if I recall correctly).

After looking at the rumor thread where the bit about the Onager was posted... it's not really clear. It seems like it might be part of the AA package- which actually wouldn't be that bad, because it'd be a good anti-WS platform that way- but it might be a separate option.

Truth be told, I think it would be perfectly reasonable for it to be a separate option.

There is a whole lot we dont know about the Onager. The AA Array has a ton of weapons, but do the others have any other secondary weapons? Does it have any CC weapons(one looks like it has a taser)? How much does the Neutron Laser cost? Lots of questions. All we know is it's stat line

I just bought my first 2 squads of skiratii today, I'm thinking building em as rangers. then I'll have eneugh special weapons that my first squad of vanguard can easily have 3 arc rifles.

 Exergy wrote:
Vanguard just to soo much more damage to things not in 4+ armor, and a lot of the game has armor other than 4+

I think you want enough Vanguard to scout up the field and press the enemy, but a few rangers to sit a little further back and try and snipe out a special weapons or two.

If I were taking 50, I would have 30 Vanguard easily, maybe 40.

And for Vanguard, there is not much reason to take anything but arc rifles. Plasma is nice, but too pricey and the Carbines should help you with anti infantry enough. TDA isnt that prevalent.

TDA might not be prevalent, but 2+ armor MCs are, and Arc Rifles won't help against those. As an example, a full squad of Vanguard with Plasma Calivers will:

21 shots, 14 hits, ~2.34 auto-wound rolls for ~4.68 wounds from the special trait on the Radium Carbines
9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds from Plasma Calivers

The Carbines will put on average ~0.78 unsaved wounds on a T6/2+ MC, while the Plasma Calivers will contribute an extra 4 wounds; versus the common 5++ that the two "big players" of the T6/2+ statline have, this is then ~2.67 unsaved wounds. So on average, factoring saves, Vanguard with Plasma Calivers will put around 3.5 unsaved wounds onto a Riptide or a Dreadknight. Obviously this changes if a Riptide Nova Charges or the Dreadknight pops Sanctuary, but Plasma Calivers do have their uses.

OTOH, with 9 shots and Gets Hot! you'll average 1.5 Gets Hot! results, which will on average inflict ~0.62 unsaved wounds on your dudes. Of course, considering that you could ally in a cheap-as-chips Divination Psyker, I'm hard-pressed to find that to be overly problematic.

In fact, casting Prescience on the aforementioned squad will take the "killrate" up to:

21 shots, 14 hits native, ~4.7 extra hits from Prescience, ~3.12 total "6s", ~6.24 wounds from the Radium Carbine trait
9 shots, 6 hits, 2 extra hits from Prescience, ~5.34 wounds from Plasma Calivers

Radium Carbines then inflict ~1.04 unsaved wounds, plus the ~3.56 unsaved wounds from Plasma Calivers with Prescience, means you're inflicting somewhere between 4 and 5 unsaved wounds on a Riptide/Dreadknight. If a Riptide took FNP, then this does drop a bit- ~0.69 unsaved from the Carbines and ~2.37 unsaved from the Plasma, for a total of ~3.06 unsaved wounds off of a Riptide with T6/2+/5++/5+++.

Which, considering just how ridiculously tough Riptides generally are, that's pretty slick.

 Exergy wrote:
There is a whole lot we dont know about the Onager. The AA Array has a ton of weapons, but do the others have any other secondary weapons? Does it have any CC weapons(one looks like it has a taser)? How much does the Neutron Laser cost? Lots of questions. All we know is it's stat line

Yeah... unfortunately that's true. That said, I highly doubt that Onagers will have combat weapons- they've got average WS but more relevantly absolutely abysmal Attacks and poor Initiative. Additionally, for a CC walker it's not got very good base Strength- yes, most of the CC walkers also get powerfists or some other x2 Str CCW but they also all tend to be S6+ base.

Whiskey what is the calculation like for BS7 on that plasma squad? Because technically we don't really even need divination to avoid gets hot, the twin link is nice but you re-roll those 1s and can hit with those re-rolls on 5s. That's pretty sweet even for just one turn, and Doctrina Imperatives can't just be denied by the enemy and doesn't require a roll of 4+ on two dice.

Sample List:
First Skitarii List-
(Codex: Skitarii - Maniple Detachment)

Troops-
Skitarii Rangers x10 (210)
-Warlord
-Conversion Field
-3x Transuranic Arquebus
-Arc Pistol

Skitarii Vanguard x10 (155)
-3x Arc Rifle
-Arc Pistol

Skitarii Vanguard x5 (115)
-2x Plasma Caliver

Elites-
5x Sicaran Infiltrators (185)
-Taser Goad/Flechette Blaster

5x Sicaran Ruststalkers (160)
-2x Transonic Blades

Fast Attack-
Sydonian Dragoon x2 (90)

Heavy Support-
Onager Dunecrawler (135)
-Icarus Array

Onager Dunecrawler (120)
-Neutron Laser

Total- 1,170

Your also missing the extra 15 points per weapon for the plasma guns over the haywire.

I am not saying all one or all the other. I think a solid mix would be good(across the army, not in any given unit).

After looking at the upgrades I am becoming a fan of the 10 man unit with -1 cover save. Seriously, precision shots is gonna come up.

Seriously so many wounds and it helps against a lot of the major offenders.

Also for the elite guys a iron priest with 4 cyber wolves makes them majority T5 for awhile.....just sayin.

I really, really want to like the infiltrators and rust stalkers. But I just can't really see them as worthy units... that T3 really bugs me, the thing is they are going to take a lot of wounds because of it. More than you're going to be able to save with 4+ armor and 5+ FNP. They may be two wounds each but 4+ and FNP just seems like such easy rolls to fail...

 ultimentra wrote:
I really, really want to like the infiltrators and rust stalkers. But I just can't really see them as worthy units... that T3 really bugs me, the thing is they are going to take a lot of wounds because of it. More than you're going to be able to save with 4+ armor and 5+ FNP. They may be two wounds each but 4+ and FNP just seems like such easy rolls to fail...

my gut feeling is that it won't be quite as bad as it seems because of the Skitarri's ability to spam light armor. yeah these guys will die in droves to autocanons. but there are a LOT of targets for autocanons in an admech list

 ultimentra wrote:
Whiskey what is the calculation like for BS7 on that plasma squad? Because technically we don't really even need divination to avoid gets hot, the twin link is nice but you re-roll those 1s and can hit with those re-rolls on 5s. That's pretty sweet even for just one turn, and Doctrina Imperatives can't just be denied by the enemy and doesn't require a roll of 4+ on two dice.

Bs7 is an 8/9 chance to hit. Same as tl bs4. Chance of getting a failed gets hit roll is 1/36.

 ultimentra wrote:
Whiskey what is the calculation like for BS7 on that plasma squad? Because technically we don't really even need divination to avoid gets hot, the twin link is nice but you re-roll those 1s and can hit with those re-rolls on 5s. That's pretty sweet even for just one turn, and Doctrina Imperatives can't just be denied by the enemy and doesn't require a roll of 4+ on two dice.

Derp, totally forgot about Doctrina Imperatives.

BS7 for 3x Plasma Calivers in a full Vanguard squad:

All told, that's ~7.4 wounds before saves, and most of them are AP2; against:
Not too shabby; straight-up twin-linking is a lot better, but also requires allying in, at a minimum, a Divination-bot Inquisitor.

 Verviedi wrote:
Sample List:
First Skitarii List-
(Codex: Skitarii - Maniple Detachment)

Spoiler:

Troops-
Skitarii Rangers x10 (210)
-Warlord
-Conversion Field
-3x Transuranic Arquebus
-Arc Pistol

Skitarii Vanguard x10 (155)
-3x Arc Rifle
-Arc Pistol

Skitarii Vanguard x5 (115)
-2x Plasma Caliver

Elites-
5x Sicaran Infiltrators (185)
-Taser Goad/Flechette Blaster

5x Sicaran Ruststalkers (160)
-2x Transonic Blades

Fast Attack-
Sydonian Dragoon x2 (90)

Heavy Support-
Onager Dunecrawler (135)
-Icarus Array

Onager Dunecrawler (120)
-Neutron Laser

Total- 1,170

I'd heartily recommend taking the Prehensile Dataspike on the Ruststalker and Infiltrator Princeps- getting an Initiative 10 attack is pretty nice, especially if you decide to accept a challenge. Even nicer, it's also a Haywire attack, so they can get a little more anti-vehicle capability.

OTOH, I would also say that the Warlord's unit, being armed with a bunch of Transuranic Arquebuses, isn't likely to get any benefit out of that Arc Pistol, so he'd probably be better off just keeping his Galvanic Rifle- unlike the quartermasters for an IG force, the Skitarii can give all their officers/NCOs proper rifles.

 Leth wrote:
Your also missing the extra 15 points per weapon for the plasma guns over the haywire.

I am not saying all one or all the other. I think a solid mix would be good(across the army, not in any given unit).

After looking at the upgrades I am becoming a fan of the 10 man unit with -1 cover save. Seriously, precision shots is gonna come up.

Seriously so many wounds and it helps against a lot of the major offenders.

Also for the elite guys a iron priest with 4 cyber wolves makes them majority T5 for awhile.....just sayin.

In terms of Allies, there is the obvious Space Wolves Rent-a-Pod shenanigans; however, I think that allying in Skitarii will probably be a great option for GK players- it provides anti-vehicle with Arc Rifles (primarily*), and a counter to 2+ save anything with Plasma Calivers. Skitarii can also bring some good AA/anti-skimmer fire with Icarus Onagers, and some ranged anti-armor fire with Neutron Lasers- also on Onagers.

In terms of bringing allies for the Sktitarii... probably anything that's fast. So maybe some Biker Marines, or even Mech Marines- with Onagers you could get some passable armor saturation going. Inquisition, can, IIRC, bring FA Valkyries (I think it was a FW update that allowed that though...), while Tempestus on their own can bring either FA (IE, free rides for Skitarii) Taurox Primes or Valkyries.

The Tempestus can also bring better up-field presence, thanks to being able to DS in, while Inquisition... I think bringing an Inquisitor or two might actually be one of the best ways to get some cheap unit buffers in. Consider:

A Xenos Inquisitor can bring Rad and Psychotroke grenades, IE two out of three of the most awesome grenades in the game (the third, IMO, is Mindscramblers). This could allow Sicarians of either flavor to "up-engage" significantly, or even do bad things if you combo'd it with the rad effects of Vanguard and the Neurostatic Aura of the Infiltrators.

A Hereticus Inquisitor can bring a Psyocculum, which makes you BS10 (!), but only if shooting at whatever flavor of psyker you prefer. Upside is that there only has to be one psyker in the unit, it also works on vehicles with the "Psychic Pilot rule, and BS10 means that you you're basically twin-linked BS5. Which is actually really amazing for killing, say, a Dreadknight (which is considered a Psyker). Hereticus Inquisitors can also bring Null Rods, to make a unit of Skitarii infantry of your choice immune to all psychic powers... though this does unfortunately extend to any powers that you might want to put on them- like Prescience, for example.

Xenos Inquisitors can also bring Conversion Beamers, which are funky guns that can get an S10/AP1 shot from 42-72", which is pretty nice if you want him to sit in the backfield with, say, a unit of Rangers with Transuranic Arquebuses. Unfortunately Xenos Inquisitors can't get Relentless...

OTOH, you could also bring a Malleus Inquisitor to get a Relentless Psycannon, which combines well with the S7 of Plasma Calivers, and probably works pretty good with Arc Rifles if you're after light/medium armor. Malleus Inquisitors can also bring Incinerators for some template action- templates being rather absent from the Skitarii list.

You can also bring Servo-Skulls to get more accurate DS for yourself, more accurate scatter (if the shot is within 12" of the Servo Skull) and mess with enemy Infiltrators and Scout moves- very useful.

As an example, for a backfield objective holder squad of Rangers with Transuranic Arquebuses, you could take a Xenos Inquisitor with a Conversion Beamer, Power Armor, Servo Skulls, and ML1 is 107 points. ML1 is for Divination- or more specifically, Prescience. However, you could also skip ML1, at which point he's only a 77 point investment for what is really just a guy with a bigass gun. You could pay 15-35 points to take either the Tome of Vethric, Liber Heresius, or both so you can get Split Fire; Tome of Vethric only gives Split Fire against the Eldar, while the Liber Heresius can give you one of several USRs but you can't take the same one twice in a row... so for a Conversion Beamer Xenos Inquisitor, probably not a good idea.

OTOH, a Malleus Inquisitor that picks up TDA, a Psycannon, Empyrean Brain Mines and 3x Servo Skulls costs 99 points- here the Liber Heresius would probably be good pick, since you can also get Counter-Attack in addition to Split Fire. Also, for this one? Spend the 5 points to give him the "Grimoire of True Names", as this will, in a challenge only, put a -5 penalty on the WS/I/Ld characteristics of anything with the Daemon USR. Given that a Malleus Inquisitor with TDA also comes with a Daemonhammer, this is quite awesome- Psyker ML1 is optional, but also awesome since then you can gib stuff pretty easily... though be careful of sticking him with Vanguards, as he'll take that -1T penalty too.

A Hereticus Inquisitor with the Psyocculum, Combi-Weapon, PA, and 3x Servo Skulls is all of 77 points, and gives you BS10 when firing on anything that's even slightly Psyker-y, along with a handy-dandy combi weapon of your choice. You can also take a Null Rod for psychic immunity or take ML1 for Divination access.

However, if what you want is transports, then I'd say that Tempestus might be the best choice- they can bring either Taurox Primes or Valkyries in FA, as well as give you some early up-field presence with DS. The Tempestus Formations- or more accurately, the Taurox Prime oriented formation- might also be a good choice to bring in.

I think for bringing allies to the Skitarii... there's some limits, because the one thing that Skitarii kind of need is some sort of transport option- or at least something for them to grab objectives in Maelstrom missions. Something like Inquisition with some Acolytes in a Valkyrie (Henchmen Warbands are cheap, after all) or maybe some Scions in TXPs would be a good way to fill the gap of "fast transit".

*Also note that Neutron Laser Onagers can bring long-range AV for a number of Imperial armies, in particular Sisters and GKs. Incidentally, this makes Skitarii a somewhat better ally force than IG for that purpose, as Skitarii infantry are better equipped and probably a lower "tax", on top of the benefits of the Skitarii Maniple detachment. Oh, and Infiltrators, which both Sisters and GKs lack.

A few quick things to note:

Neurostatic aura: All enemy models within 6" of one or more models with this special rule subtract 1 from their WS, BS, I and Ld.

--This means that A) it does not stack and B) it affects models. If you get into assault and not all of the models are within 6 inches (rare, I know) it means that they may still be able to use higher leadership of models farther than 6" away when rolling for leadership checks after assault. It also means that if other units are close, you're going to want to keep track of who gets hit by the -1 BS when your opponent's shooting phase comes around. Logically, your opponent would move unenganged units away from the Infiltrators, which could open up some opportunities for map-control when your opponent wants to get their full BS back.

Another thing to note is that Ruststalkers do NOT have grenades with the dual Transonic blades. Only by getting the Chordclaw and razors do they get grenades. This is nice, since it gives them a haywire weapon in close combat, and a grenade to chuck in the shooting phase, but they lose the +1 strength. Not having grenades means any initiative bonus is totally lost on that first turn of combat if they charge something in terrain. Infiltrators cannot get grenades at all. :I

Inquisition land raiders with assault grenade launchers! Ya, I saw that grenade thing too but was not a big deal since I have been dealing with this problem for years as inquisiton. I am defiantly going for some sort of inquisition skitarii build.

Ultimately I want to drown my opponents in MSU and block lanes with the corpses of my wrecked vehicles. The mass of spider tanks rolling on reminds me of my kan wall list alot actually now that I think about it. The big difference is that instead of boys in trucks I'll have more AV12 than most people know what to do with and quite alot more shooty to boot.

Biggest threats I face locally is the penta flyrants/adamantium lance/wraith decurion reclamation/ and the usual WS/ riptide/ bikestar /centstar/ screamerstars Weirdly enough I haven't seen a dreadknight in a while. All the GK seem to have stopped playing locally cept for me.

I'm curious if you guys have anything particular in mind for the above generic threats above with mechanicus?

A flyrant will make Skitari cry, if the Icarus doesn't turn out really really good. Not much to be done 'bout that.

Icarus Array (Dunecrawler only): Deadalus missile launcher: heavy 1, 7/2 48″ skyfire + gatling rocket launcher: heavy 5, 6/4 48″ skyfire, ignores cover + twin icarus autocannon: heavy 2, 7/4 48″ skyfire, interceptor, twin-linked.

Apparently THAT is the Icarua Array...

RIP Flyrants.