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 IHateNids wrote:
On the note of Devils Advocate...

what do you dakkalites think would be a very bad matchup for the Skitarii?

I'm not even sure what a good Skitarii list would be so it is hard to say! Lots and lots of their cheap troops? Their troops (and elites) are T3. High volume of fire shots will run their day. And S6 will obviously get rid of those 2W elites quite quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ronin_cse wrote:

But rangers can deal more damage further away...plus they look cooler

I plan on using the Ranger heads with the Vanguard guns. The gun is the important thing anyway. Vanguards can wear hoods. At least mine can lol.

Tau and Eldar are a problem for us, as they are for most codices.

The biggest thing to consider with Skitarii is allies. You can go pure and lose out on mobility to get your low toughness units where they need to be. You can take BA/SW for drop pods to carry vanguard. You can take Inquisition to get some LRCs to carry your scary CC units. You can take a knight (or two) or 3) to give a bigger threat for your opponent to face.

I see Skitarii coming into their own at about the 2K+ margin, where you have enough points to take kitted up units and ally in ways to get them where you need them.

Idea- Skitarii Vanguard in BA Rent-a-Rhino with the added benefit of being fast. Yes/No? I realize Drop Pods are awesome, but running a Mech list with a bunch of Skitarii vanguard in Rhinos could be awesome as well. They do get to take 2 specials per 5 men, and the Rhino has 2 fire ports after all.

I'd almost rather take them in AC razorbacks just to add to the carnage.

Problem is that it can still only move 6 and still be able to fire without snapfiring.

No, BA razors are Fast.

 TranSpyre wrote:
No, BA razors are Fast.

I was referencing the skitarii in rhinos. Razorbacks have not been worth it for awhile anyway, for the points you could get something more durable with more firepower in a different slot. Even with OS I would rather just get a rhino that runs around trying to stay alive

Ironstrider Balitastarius added to unit summary list.

One thing I don't see people talking about enough with the Rangers is precision shot. Have we already forgot how powerful it combined with focus fire was in 6th? Now we have a unit with rapid fire guns that has it always. Make em bs 6 and now on the re roll of it hits, it's precision shots

 Leth wrote:
One thing I don't see people talking about enough with the Rangers is precision shot. Have we already forgot how powerful it combined with focus fire was in 6th? Now we have a unit with rapid fire guns that has it always. Make em bs 6 and now on the re roll of it hits, it's precision shots

Precision shots are powerful but situational. Particularly with Tau, Eldar, and Necrons being top teir they dont have many special weapons.

Still 10 rangers will only give you 2 precision hits at long range, 4 at close range. Maybe half those wound and then you have armor saves.

Focus Fire was so powerful because ALL the shots went on that one guy, not just 1/4 (or 1/5 with upped BS)

So people are saying that Arc Rifles are better on Vanguard than Rangers, but from how I see it you will want to be shooting Arc Rifles at vehicles 90% of the time right? And Vanguard's weapons are only str 3, so they can literally never even scratch a vehicle.

I'm leaning towards Arc Rifles on Rangers since they have str 4 guns, so can have a chance at glancing armor 10 at least.

 Exergy wrote:

 Leth wrote:
One thing I don't see people talking about enough with the Rangers is precision shot. Have we already forgot how powerful it combined with focus fire was in 6th? Now we have a unit with rapid fire guns that has it always. Make em bs 6 and now on the re roll of it hits, it's precision shots

Precision shots are powerful but situational. Particularly with Tau, Eldar, and Necrons being top teir they dont have many special weapons.

Still 10 rangers will only give you 2 precision hits at long range, 4 at close range. Maybe half those wound and then you have armor saves.

Focus Fire was so powerful because ALL the shots went on that one guy, not just 1/4 (or 1/5 with upped BS)

Sometimes its not about the special weapons guy. Sometimes you want to kill a guy that is barely maintaining coherency. Sometimes you want to remove specific models so now they have to take a longer path around. Sometimes you want to kill the guy at the tail end of the buff aura. I mean imagine it on overwatch and now you kill the guy that makes it so they don't have to go through cover? Or get some wounds around the tank commander to the drones that are easy kills. Or around the broadsides so that they cant LOS to drones when your plasma hits.

When you get down to the nitty gritty tactics of casualty removal it becomes pretty significant.

Playing with lists, I am increasingly liking the look of my Grey Knights and Skitarii together. GK need cheap bodies and more threat vectors, and boy do Skitarii fit the bill.

I'd say Skitarii elites are a no-no in such a list since the Knights bring all the CC/anti-Elite you could want, but around 1500pts, GK/Skitarii start looking MEAN with room for two Dreadknights, a couple small squads of Deepstriking Termies, and a Libby who could potential Gate Vanguards around like a baby Cent-Star.

At 1850pts, you start being able to consider a mini Draigo-star with him synergizing incredibly well with Vanguard.

 Leth wrote:
I mean imagine it on overwatch and now you kill the guy that makes it so they don't have to go through cover?

Im confused on this. In what situation could one guy prevent a squad from having to charge through cover? Isnt the rule that the whole unit fights at I1 if at least one model charges through difficult terrain? In that scenario it would seem the best you could do is help the opponent by taking out the guy who IS charging through difficult terrain thus allowing the unit to fight at their normal initiative, though I dont see why anyone would want to do that.

 Dramagod2 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I mean imagine it on overwatch and now you kill the guy that makes it so they don't have to go through cover?

Im confused on this. In what situation could one guy prevent a squad from having to charge through cover? Isnt the rule that the whole unit fights at I1 if at least one model charges through difficult terrain? In that scenario it would seem the best you could do is help the opponent by taking out the guy who IS charging through difficult terrain thus allowing the unit to fight at their normal initiative, though I dont see why anyone would want to do that.

you have to charge closest to closest and then move models to engage. If any of those models cross through cover then you have to roll through difficult terrain and end up striking at init1. If you see a set up where killing 1-2 models means that going closest to closest no longer takes your through cover, then you gain a great tactical advantage knocking them off.

Of course you have to have models that want to get into combat in the first place.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Playing with lists, I am increasingly liking the look of my Grey Knights and Skitarii together. GK need cheap bodies and more threat vectors, and boy do Skitarii fit the bill.

I'd say Skitarii elites are a no-no in such a list since the Knights bring all the CC/anti-Elite you could want, but around 1500pts, GK/Skitarii start looking MEAN with room for two Dreadknights, a couple small squads of Deepstriking Termies, and a Libby who could potential Gate Vanguards around like a baby Cent-Star.

At 1850pts, you start being able to consider a mini Draigo-star with him synergizing incredibly well with Vanguard.

I somewhat disagree regarding Skitarii elites- the Infiltrators bring a slick debuff aura that provides -1 WS/BS/I/Ld, which might make all the difference to some GK facepunchers that are in combat. Also, the default wargear for Ruststalkers includes Haywire Grenades, which helps kill vehicles very dead.

This being said, for anti-vehicle duties as a complement to GKs, you'll more likely want Onagers with either Neutron Lasers or Icarus Arrays, or Dragoons with Taser Lances; a pair of the latter can reliably kill most vehicles in a single charge.

Something I am wondering is how the Onager with Neutron Laser will compete with the Leman Russ Vanquisher. They seem to occupy a similar role, the difference being that the Vanquisher is a single shot with 2D6 pen, the Onager being blast at S10Ap1. I am somewhat leaning toward the Onager being the better choice with the single turn BS7 and an invuln save.

Arguably the Russ is actually more durable, given that it's AV14/13/10, rather than 12/12/11.

The Onager can also be tied up in combat, where it will most likely spend the rest of the game, much like DevCents are one of the most tarpit-able units in the game (if you can get to combat, at least).

Also, the Onager's gun is 48", rather than 72" like the Vanquisher... on most boards this isn't likely to be a big deal, but it is worth noting.

What makes Onagers worth it, IMO, is that they're not that expensive to work into a squadron that can get a 4++. They arguably have a more generally accurate weapon, since it's a blast, and they ignore terrain penalties.

Decisions, decisions...

Whiskey144 wrote:
Arguably the Russ is actually more durable, given that it's AV14/13/10, rather than 12/12/11.

The Onager can also be tied up in combat, where it will most likely spend the rest of the game, much like DevCents are one of the most tarpit-able units in the game (if you can get to combat, at least).

Also, the Onager's gun is 48", rather than 72" like the Vanquisher... on most boards this isn't likely to be a big deal, but it is worth noting.

What makes Onagers worth it, IMO, is that they're not that expensive to work into a squadron that can get a 4++. They arguably have a more generally accurate weapon, since it's a blast, and they ignore terrain penalties.

While the Onager can get tied up in combat, the LR are likely to get wrecked in combat.

AV12 with a 4++(if the sheild works in combat) hitting on WS is a lot better than AV11, no save autohitting(do they still auto hit if they dont move?)

 Exergy wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:
Arguably the Russ is actually more durable, given that it's AV14/13/10, rather than 12/12/11.

The Onager can also be tied up in combat, where it will most likely spend the rest of the game, much like DevCents are one of the most tarpit-able units in the game (if you can get to combat, at least).

Also, the Onager's gun is 48", rather than 72" like the Vanquisher... on most boards this isn't likely to be a big deal, but it is worth noting.

What makes Onagers worth it, IMO, is that they're not that expensive to work into a squadron that can get a 4++. They arguably have a more generally accurate weapon, since it's a blast, and they ignore terrain penalties.

While the Onager can get tied up in combat, the LR are likely to get wrecked in combat.

AV12 with a 4++(if the sheild works in combat) hitting on WS is a lot better than AV11, no save autohitting(do they still auto hit if they dont move?)

I believe that it is still auto-hit in combat if a non-Walker vehicle sits there, but the Russes have very little incentive to sit still- even if they just move back and forth every turn, because they're a Heavy vehicle, they're always considered to be stationary for the purposes of shooting.

I don't disagree that the Russ would get destroyed if caught up in a charge, but the thing is that a Russ could potentially camp the absolute back edge of a typical 6x4' board, even deploying on the short edges, and it's not likely to actually be charged. OTOH, a single Vanquisher is also not that big a deal- it'll get three hits in the course of a game.

It's a real shame, IMO, that GW hasn't included coaxial guns for the Russes, particularly the Vanquisher- the FW-only option to give it a Coaxial Heavy Stubber is amazing because all you have to do is land one hit on something with the Stubber and the Vanquisher Cannon becomes twin-linked. The only downside is that you have to be in Heavy Stubber range- 36"- in order to benefit from the Coaxial rule.

OTOH, there is also the fancy Conqueror, which in its current iteration is actually a Fast vehicle. Yes, there is now a vehicle with AV14/13/10 armor and Fast status.

In any case, an Onager battery could potentially mix primary weapons around, as there's some new information which suggests that the Icarus Array may always fire all three weapons that compose the array, and that:

1) the Autocannon component of the Icarus Array has Interceptor (!)
2) the "separate" weapons of the Array may fire on different targets (!)

Presumably this could allow for squadrons of 2/1 or 1/2 mixings of Neutron Laser/Icarus Array. There's also tell of a new Phosphor weapon for the Onager, that's AP3. I'm thinking though, that you're generally going to want Neutron Lasers or Icarus Arrays, possibly mixing them together.

TBH Onagers might be the best Imperial AA solution- the other options generally have slight advantages*, mostly that they're cheaper than an Icarus Onager, but there's nothing that has a weapon that can fire in Interceptor "mode", and two more in reserve for the controlling player's shooting phase, one of which Ignores Cover, and therefore ignores Jink!

The more I look at Onagers the more I like them; at this point the only thing I dislike is that the HH armies can't ally with the 40K armies!

*For the record, an Icarus Onager is a 12/12/11 3HP Walker with BS4, and costs 90 pts base plus, IIRC, 45 for the Icarus; 135 points for 12/12/11 3HP BS4 with a twin-linked, Skyfire, Interceptor Autocannon, Skyfire Plasma Gun shot, and a 5-shot S6/AP4 Ignores Cover missile doohickey.
For comparison:

Hydras cost 70 points, are 12/10/10 3HP Open-Topped BS3, with two twin-linked Hydra Autocannons (AC w/ Skyfire & 72" range); alas Hydras lost their anti-jink rule
Stalkers cost 75 pts, for 12/12/10**, 3HP, BS4, with the Icarus Stormcannon Array (that'll be confusing shortly), which is basically two ACs with Skyfire and Twin-Link, plus a funky rule to split fire at BS2
Hunters are 70 pts for 12/12/10 3HP BS4 with a single S7/AP2 Armorbane shot with 60" of range and a funky-but-also-cool rule that can make misses turn into tailing missiles
Hyperios Whirlwinds are 110 pts for 11/11/10 3HP BS4 with a Interceptor/Skyfire Krak Missile (worst AA ever)
Tarantula Sentry Guns with Hyperios Launchers, which is 35 ppm, for a BS3 T6/2W/3+ artillery unit with no crew requirement (this is actually not bad, since it's so cheap)

Onagers are basically the best surface-based AA option for Imperial armies in the game. They've got a price to match, costing around twice as much, but they're also one of few options for Interceptor-capable AA, and they can ignore Jink saves with one of their weapons, and they can split fire between their weapons to fire at multiple targets!

**I'll never understand how SM ground AA vehicles have better side armor than the SM battle tank. Or why the AA got better armor than the Whirlwinds or Razorback. If I had my way, then Predators and Vindicators would be side armor 12, while Razors, Whirlwinds, and the Hunter/Stalker would be AV12 front and AV11 side- a slight "nerf" to the protection of the Stalker and Hunter, but a nice buff to the Razor and WW, and better suiting their frontline support role.

I think being able to fire all its weapons really makes a great option against FMCs. That rapid grenade launcher alone is a great choice.

Well, honestly my favorite part of the Icarus-Onager is that the Icarus Array has a weapon with Interceptor- but it can then fire the other two during its own Shooting Phase.

The only real downside is that it'll be an upward struggle against AV12 flyers, and a lot of the "better" ones tend to be AV12 on most of their facings.

Vehicles regardless of movement speed are WS1 for combat unless immobilized then ws0 and auto hit. Walkers use their own weaponskill

Does anyone have the weapons for the Onagers? I need to find out. A link is also acceptable.

TheMisterBold wrote:
Does anyone have the weapons for the Onagers? I need to find out. A link is also acceptable.

It's all there on the last page or two of the ad mech rumor thread.


I found the post, here is the direct link:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3330/629061.page#7734065

 Leth wrote:
Vehicles regardless of movement speed are WS1 for combat unless immobilized then ws0 and auto hit. Walkers use their own weaponskill

So the ironic thing about Ruststalkers is now that they need to be in a bigger squad to Haywire things to death with their grenades, while Infiltrators can just take Taser Goads and glance things down with a mass of S6 attacks. About the only thing going in the favor of Ruststalkers is that the Mindscrambler Grenades make them a lot more dangerous to Walkers in combat as well as able to wreck anything with AV12+ rear armor.

TheMisterBold wrote:
Does anyone have the weapons for the Onagers? I need to find out. A link is also acceptable.

I believe that they're more-or-less as follows:

Icarus Array
Neutron Laser
Eradication Beamer
Heavy Phosphor Blaster
This last one is the same as the other Phosphor weapons, where if you inflict unsaved wounds/glances/pens the target unit takes a -1 penalty to its cover saves. Since it's S6/AP3 it's a bit more likely to push wounds through, making it a potentially handy army support unit... though hopefully it'll be a cheap option, as the opportunity cost of taking the Heavy Phosphor compared to getting Neutron Lasers or the Icarus Array is pretty hard to swallow, IMO.

Also, Onagers can take something called a "Cognis Heavy Stubber", which is just a fancy Heavy Stubber that can Snap Shoot at BS2 instead of BS1.

On the whole, Eradication Beamers are pretty bad, while Neutron Lasers and Icarus Arrays are the best options, IMO. The Heavy Phosphor Blaster has some great potential synergy, as you can combine it with the Omnispex for a total -2 to cover saves; I can't remember offhand, but does the wording of the Luminagen rule sound like it stacks? Because if that's the case, then you have some... interesting... potential for combing Phosphor-Onagers, Dragoons with Phosphor Serpentas, and Omnispexes (as well as Phosphor pistols) to get a potential -4 to cover.

Oh, and the Cognis Stubber is an extra weapon; I'd say that it'll likely be very important for Neutron Laser/Phosphor Blaster Onagers so that they aren't rendered 99% useless from taking a Weapon Destroyed result, while Icarus Onagers will depend on whether the Icarus Array is treated as one or three weapons for the purposes of damage results.

Whiskey144 wrote:
Oh, and the Cognis Stubber is an extra weapon; I'd say that it'll likely be very important for Neutron Laser/Phosphor Blaster Onagers so that they aren't rendered 99% useless from taking a Weapon Destroyed result, while Icarus Onagers will depend on whether the Icarus Array is treated as one or three weapons for the purposes of damage results.

Stubber only goes with the Neutron Laser. Which means the stock Onager has only one weapon and the Phophor Blaster upgraded version also only has one weapon (since the beamer gets replaced).

I would sure as heck hope the array counts as three weapons because it is three weapons with different profiles. But who knows.

You can fire any or all of the weapons on the array in any turn.

Super Newb wrote:
Stubber only goes with the Neutron Laser. Which means the stock Onager has only one weapon and the Phophor Blaster upgraded version also only has one weapon (since the beamer gets replaced).

I would sure as heck hope the array counts as three weapons because it is three weapons with different profiles. But who knows.

Are you sure? That doesn't seem like it would make sense for the Stubber to only go with one weapon option. OTOH, this is GeeDubs, so...

Also, the way that the Icarus Array is worded isn't clear as to whether or not the idea is that it's a unified mount for several weapon systems- in which case one weapon being damaged/destroyed would affect all of them- or if it's an "Array" because it's simply purchased/organized as a single wargear option.

The former isn't necessarily without precedence either; for those vehicles which can take Coaxial weapons the coax gun is considered to be part of the weapon that it's attached to; IE, the coax AC of a Baneblade is considered to be part of the Baneblade Cannon for damage purposes. Another example would be the FW LR Conqueror and LR Vanquisher; the former has a coax Stormbolter that is considered to be part of the Conqueror Cannon, so if the Cannon goes so does the coax, while the LR Vanquisher in FW armies/options can take a coax Stormbolter or Heavy Stubber (obviously the Stubber is the superior option*), and using a coax on the Vanquisher Cannon means that the coax gun is considered, once again, to be part of the Vanquisher Cannon for the purposes of damage results.

*The whole point of Coax guns is to twin-link whatever they're attached to. To do this you'll need to get at least one successful To-Hit roll with the Coax gun. Since this is the case, the Heavy Stubber is superior since it offers more shots to twin-link the main gun with, as well as a longer range (36 vs 24) that the main gun can gain twin-link via Coax.

 Leth wrote:
You can fire any or all of the weapons on the array in any turn.

Not quite; only the Icarus AC has Interceptor, so it's the only thing that can fire during the enemy's turn.

Oh, and who else thinks that the Daedalus ML is pretty terrible? It's a single S7/AP2 shot, and it doesn't really have any extra benefit beyond being AP2; in order to get weight of fire with S7 you'll need to hold the Icarus ACs until your own Shooting Phase since the Daedalus doesn't get Interceptor.

It's not like the Hunter, where even though it's a single shot it has the redeeming qualities in that it can actually turn a miss into a potential rear armor hit (very nice against Valkyrie style fliers that have stellar front/side armor but poor rear armor), plus the Hunter's weapon has Armorbane.

But the Daedalus ML? It's just a single S7/AP2 shot.