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Whiskey144 wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Stubber only goes with the Neutron Laser. Which means the stock Onager has only one weapon and the Phophor Blaster upgraded version also only has one weapon (since the beamer gets replaced).

I would sure as heck hope the array counts as three weapons because it is three weapons with different profiles. But who knows.

Are you sure? That doesn't seem like it would make sense for the Stubber to only go with one weapon option. OTOH, this is GeeDubs, so...

I am as sure as can be without having the book in my hands lol. The rules have been leaked, the images are in the rumor thread. So unless someone did some fancy image manipulation that's how it is.

Whiskey144 wrote:


Oh, and who else thinks that the Daedalus ML is pretty terrible? It's a single S7/AP2 shot, and it doesn't really have any extra benefit beyond being AP2; in order to get weight of fire with S7 you'll need to hold the Icarus ACs until your own Shooting Phase since the Daedalus doesn't get Interceptor.

It's not like the Hunter, where even though it's a single shot it has the redeeming qualities in that it can actually turn a miss into a potential rear armor hit (very nice against Valkyrie style fliers that have stellar front/side armor but poor rear armor), plus the Hunter's weapon has Armorbane.

But the Daedalus ML? It's just a single S7/AP2 shot.

It's an option that only comes with the Icarus array. it cant be taken without it, and with it it's free. Hard to say something sucks when it has not price or counter option.

Remember GW designs models and then designs rules for them. We are lucky we the two types of missiles modeled didnt end up being just a regular missile launcher with Krak and Frag.

 Exergy wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:


Oh, and who else thinks that the Daedalus ML is pretty terrible? It's a single S7/AP2 shot, and it doesn't really have any extra benefit beyond being AP2; in order to get weight of fire with S7 you'll need to hold the Icarus ACs until your own Shooting Phase since the Daedalus doesn't get Interceptor.

It's not like the Hunter, where even though it's a single shot it has the redeeming qualities in that it can actually turn a miss into a potential rear armor hit (very nice against Valkyrie style fliers that have stellar front/side armor but poor rear armor), plus the Hunter's weapon has Armorbane.

But the Daedalus ML? It's just a single S7/AP2 shot.

Remember GW designs models and then designs rules for them. We are lucky we the two types of missiles modeled didnt end up being just a regular missile launcher with Flakk only.

 Verviedi wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:


Oh, and who else thinks that the Daedalus ML is pretty terrible? It's a single S7/AP2 shot, and it doesn't really have any extra benefit beyond being AP2; in order to get weight of fire with S7 you'll need to hold the Icarus ACs until your own Shooting Phase since the Daedalus doesn't get Interceptor.

It's not like the Hunter, where even though it's a single shot it has the redeeming qualities in that it can actually turn a miss into a potential rear armor hit (very nice against Valkyrie style fliers that have stellar front/side armor but poor rear armor), plus the Hunter's weapon has Armorbane.

But the Daedalus ML? It's just a single S7/AP2 shot.

Remember GW designs models and then designs rules for them. We are lucky we the two types of missiles modeled didnt end up being just a regular missile launcher with Flakk only.

Daedalus Missile Launcher: 48" Heavy 1 S7 AP2 Skyfire
Twin Icarus Autocannon: 48" Heavy 2 S7 AP4 Skyfire, Interceptor
Gatling Rocket Launcher: 48" Heavy 5 S6 AP4 Skyfire, Ignores Cover.

There is way too much thought going into 1/3rd of the s7 shots.

Bottom line is it's 8 shots at s6 and s7. It's going to be really good against fmc, jet bikes, and av10 or 11 skimmers aND flyers. It's not going to be good against AV 12 and 13 Unless a misfortune is involved.

My point was mainly that the Daedalus is a single S7/AP2 shot, since you'll probably fire the Icarus AC as Interceptor if you get the chance.

Which means you'll then have 5 S6/Ignore Cover shots and a single S7/AP2 shot on your turn. The S6/Ignore Cover is badass, and will shred a whole lot of things, particularly since Ignore Cover means that it bypasses Jink.

But that single S7/AP2 shot isn't going to have very much that it can do in terms of being useful. Maybe a potshot at an FMC, but there's a lot more armies without FMCs than those that have them.

Whiskey144 wrote:
My point was mainly that the Daedalus is a single S7/AP2 shot, since you'll probably fire the Icarus AC as Interceptor if you get the chance.

Which means you'll then have 5 S6/Ignore Cover shots and a single S7/AP2 shot on your turn. The S6/Ignore Cover is badass, and will shred a whole lot of things, particularly since Ignore Cover means that it bypasses Jink.

But that single S7/AP2 shot isn't going to have very much that it can do in terms of being useful. Maybe a potshot at an FMC, but there's a lot more armies without FMCs than those that have them.

Sure
it isnt reliable
it isnt specialized
it isnt the things powergamers really like
but it's effective. You get a lot of shots, this gives you another shot that ignores armor but doesnt ignore cover.

Ignoring cover is boss, but on an AP5 weapon how many FMC are going to jink? Most have better than 5+ armor or at least have a 5++. I think ignores cover is going to be better when going after vehicles.

Str7 AP2 doesnt synergize perfectly with Str6 AP5 ignores cover, but in the realm of skyfire, how often do you have 2 different types of skyfire targets? All dakka goes on the same thing till you bring it down.



Also it's cinematic. It wont blow up too many vehicles, but it will blow up more than none.

I wonder if is better to use the big giant crab to shoot ground targets with the s10 gun option it has.

People could take several of those chicken looking models I mean the Ironstrider and have a bunch of those twin-linked BS2 instead of BS1 autocannons when firing at flyers. And if there are no flyers they can actually shoot ground targets.

Guess it depends on the meta...

I found the perfect rules for my Red Blok Dotch yaga, it's almost like GW knows....

Super Newb wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Stubber only goes with the Neutron Laser. Which means the stock Onager has only one weapon and the Phophor Blaster upgraded version also only has one weapon (since the beamer gets replaced).

I would sure as heck hope the array counts as three weapons because it is three weapons with different profiles. But who knows.

Are you sure? That doesn't seem like it would make sense for the Stubber to only go with one weapon option. OTOH, this is GeeDubs, so...

I am as sure as can be without having the book in my hands lol. The rules have been leaked, the images are in the rumor thread. So unless someone did some fancy image manipulation that's how it is.

Disregard. I am seeing multiple people saying that the stubber can be purchased separately. It comes with the neutron laser, yes, but the stubber is also one of the things that the Onager can purchase separately from the vehicle equipment list.

Whiskey144 wrote:
My point was mainly that the Daedalus is a single S7/AP2 shot, since you'll probably fire the Icarus AC as Interceptor if you get the chance.

Which means you'll then have 5 S6/Ignore Cover shots and a single S7/AP2 shot on your turn. The S6/Ignore Cover is badass, and will shred a whole lot of things, particularly since Ignore Cover means that it bypasses Jink.

But that single S7/AP2 shot isn't going to have very much that it can do in terms of being useful. Maybe a potshot at an FMC, but there's a lot more armies without FMCs than those that have them.

You might be missing something here. If everything ignores cover, then there is no reason to jink as it does you no good. Completely irrelevant if you kill the target outright, but annoying if you don't. Not ignoring cover with the most likely shot to wound may work in your favor by forcing the jink and hedging against not outright killing the target.

Example. 5 S6 shots at BS 4 Vs. Flyrant (one of if not most common FMC's):

5 shots -> 3.3 hits -> 1.65 wounds -> .5 wounds after save.

So, you're not exactly swatting bugs out of the air with these guys. That single S7 AP2 shot OtOH does another .43 wounds if they don't jink. It nearly doubles the damage output on a non-jinking FMC. So your opponent needs to decide if he can roll the dice and assume you roll avg or below with the missles and just take the Ap2 shot, or play it safe and Jink. In short, the AP2 is a hedge against FMC's that at leasts gives you the opportunity to reduce their dmg output should you not kill them.

Also, while improbable never discount the ability to one shot a vehicle.

I had one screamer take 5 hullpoints off my knight with one attack. It is likely to happen? Nope, but it can and will happen.

Super Newb wrote:
I wonder if is better to use the big giant crab to shoot ground targets with the s10 gun option it has.

People could take several of those chicken looking models I mean the Ironstrider and have a bunch of those twin-linked BS2 instead of BS1 autocannons when firing at flyers. And if there are no flyers they can actually shoot ground targets.

Guess it depends on the meta...

And on how much things cost. We still dont know how much the crab costs with the Neutron Laser

 Exergy wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
I wonder if is better to use the big giant crab to shoot ground targets with the s10 gun option it has.

People could take several of those chicken looking models I mean the Ironstrider and have a bunch of those twin-linked BS2 instead of BS1 autocannons when firing at flyers. And if there are no flyers they can actually shoot ground targets.

Guess it depends on the meta...

And on how much things cost. We still dont know how much the crab costs with the Neutron Laser

Yes we do. The Laser (which includes a free stubber lol) is a 25 point upgrade. Onager is 90 points base.

The Phoso whatever gun is 15, the Laser is 25, the Array is 35.

One of the nice things is that skyfire can still shoot certain targets on the ground without snap firing.

The problem is that I have no idea what will happen to the meta with the (hopefully) upcoming wave serpent nerf. I mean that unit single handedly prevents entire builds from working. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Super Newb wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
I wonder if is better to use the big giant crab to shoot ground targets with the s10 gun option it has.

People could take several of those chicken looking models I mean the Ironstrider and have a bunch of those twin-linked BS2 instead of BS1 autocannons when firing at flyers. And if there are no flyers they can actually shoot ground targets.

Guess it depends on the meta...

And on how much things cost. We still dont know how much the crab costs with the Neutron Laser

Yes we do. The Laser (which includes a free stubber lol) is a 25 point upgrade. Onager is 90 points base.

The Phoso whatever gun is 15, the Laser is 25, the Array is 35.

Where, I haven't seen any scans of anything but the base cost and armor.

 Exergy wrote:

Where, I haven't seen any scans of anything but the base cost and armor.

In the rumor thread. Here and on 3 other sites I also happen to look at. They are out there for you to find...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol, I even linked to it earlier in this thread... though it wasn't explicit that all the points costs were there. (Well almost all, the vehicle equipment list I still haven't seen with my own eyes though it supposedly is out there too)

Super Newb wrote:

TheMisterBold wrote:
Does anyone have the weapons for the Onagers? I need to find out. A link is also acceptable.

It's all there on the last page or two of the ad mech rumor thread.


I found the post, here is the direct link:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3330/629061.page#7734065

Mmmm.... So Cult Mechanicus with Electro Priests (!!) are coming soon. I suppose I may have to expand the OP in May...

 Leth wrote:
Also, while improbable never discount the ability to one shot a vehicle.

I had one screamer take 5 hullpoints off my knight with one attack. It is likely to happen? Nope, but it can and will happen.

Wait I dont understand. How did that happen?
Screamers only get 1 armourbane attack each?

Penetration - 1 HP
Explodes! Result on the vehicle table - D3 HP

So... 4 hullpoints is the worst case, not 5?

Sorry my mistake it was two screamers 1 did 1 hullpoint, the other did an explode result for 4. Total of 5....from two screamers.....after they saved the HOW

Also something to consider is that the dunestalker rule says a "unit" with this special rule moves faster. That means that attached characters should still move faster unless I am missing something. So now you can attach IC's without being slowed down. Think it also will apply if they disembark from a transport as well. So move 6, disembark 9, charge 2d6 +3.....thats some scary movement.


18+2d6 threat range.....thats some good gak.

I highly doubt people would just allow you to move your IC nine inches that would normally move 6 just because you attached them to a unit of Sicarians. Great. Another RAI vs. RAW argument. GW do you not fething speak english? You would think they would have people proofread these things. They're from the country that invented the damn language for grots sake.

One of the things I have heard is that British English, grammar, and interpretation can be very different from ours. A lot of these issues dont even register from the british interpretation. By strict american interpretation there is some ambiguity.

For example in american english we assume we can do something unless we are told we cant, where as in british interpretation you cant do it unless it explicitly says you can. When coming at rules from this perspective it is quite easy to see where the rules issues could come up in interpretation.

Once again I am not saying this is fact, just one of the things I have heard over the years.

 Leth wrote:
One of the things I have heard is that British English, grammar, and interpretation can be very different from ours. A lot of these issues dont even register from the british interpretation. By strict american interpretation there is some ambiguity.

That statement seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the reality of the 'You Make Da Call" section. Lol.


Anyway, back to Tactics

Three big crabs is nice and all to get the 4++, but they all have to stay within 4 inches of each other for that! And those Onager crabs are huge! Three 100mm bases in a triangle. I feel like staying in that triangle formation would be a huge headache on the field, especially assuming if one plays with the proper amount of terrain. I'm thinking of maybe only running two Onagers to keep myself a little more sane...

Super Newb wrote:


Three big crabs is nice and all to get the 4++, but they all have to stay within 4 inches of each other for that! And those Onager crabs are huge! Three 100mm bases in a triangle. I feel like staying in that triangle formation would be a huge headache on the field, especially assuming if one plays with the proper amount of terrain. I'm thinking of maybe only running two Onagers to keep myself a little more sane...

At least with the seemingly popular options of Neutron Laser and Icarus Array you have the range to stay put mostly.

For list building, the Battlescribe Skitarii file is complete now. I've got the English Codex.

The Dunecrawler can always take an extra Cognis Heavy Stubber for 5 points, even if it already has one with the Neutron Laser. But a Dunecrawler with an Icarus Array cannot take 5pt Smoke Launchers.

axisofentropy wrote:
For list building, the Battlescribe Skitarii file is complete now. I've got the English Codex.

The Dunecrawler can always take an extra Cognis Heavy Stubber for 5 points, even if it already has one with the Neutron Laser. But a Dunecrawler with an Icarus Array cannot take 5pt Smoke Launchers.

So odd. To both statements. I doubt Gee Dubs intended the Onager to have two stubbers and a laser.

Smoke Launchers seem pointless anyway provided you at least have two Onagers in a squad.

Super Newb wrote:

 Leth wrote:
One of the things I have heard is that British English, grammar, and interpretation can be very different from ours. A lot of these issues dont even register from the british interpretation. By strict american interpretation there is some ambiguity.

That statement seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the reality of the 'You Make Da Call" section. Lol.


Anyway, back to Tactics

Three big crabs is nice and all to get the 4++, but they all have to stay within 4 inches of each other for that! And those Onager crabs are huge! Three 100mm bases in a triangle. I feel like staying in that triangle formation would be a huge headache on the field, especially assuming if one plays with the proper amount of terrain. I'm thinking of maybe only running two Onagers to keep myself a little more sane...

I was referencing the statement that they are incapable of writing good english with their rules, and it lends towards an interpretation that is closer to RAI instead of RAW. But that is neither here nor there.

I am excited by the possibilities that come from the assault units combined with allied inq or marines. Many possibilities there, especially with FW vehicles

So if I only had money for one, which would work better. 5x Ruststalkers or 5x infiltrators? Mostly going to be supported by roughly 3 vanguard, 20 rangers, and probably 3 spider tanks of indeterminate loadout yet.

 Orock wrote:
So if I only had money for one, which would work better. 5x Ruststalkers or 5x infiltrators? Mostly going to be supported by roughly 3 vanguard, 20 rangers, and probably 3 spider tanks of indeterminate loadout yet.

Im leaning towards 30 vanguard, 5 infiltrators, 10 rangers, and 3 tanks. I think the infiltrators are better than the ruststalkers. Got some proxies I will try for ruststalkers, but i think the infiltrators are better.

Now that I have had a look at the book I am definately getting some of the onagers, seriously a defensive grenade aura for 10 points!! yes please.