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I've allied my Ad mech with my Armored Battle Company. It was a pretty nice blend of units. Vangaurd in a Vendetta very effective at dealing with infantry.

Fluffy Fluffy List. What is the most competitive you can get?

Troops-
Rangers x10 (Warlord)
-3x Arquebus
-Conversion Field

Vanguard x10
-3x Plasma Caliver

Vanguard x10
-3x Arc Rifle
-Arc Pistol

Ruststalker x5

Infiltrator x5
-FB + TG

Sydonian Dragoon x2

Onager Dunecrawler
-Icarus Array

Onager Dunecrawler
-Icarus Array

Knight Paladin

Knight Errant

Exactly 1,650

Verv I would make at the very least your Ranger squad into 2 5man squads to allow for more versatility in objective grabbing. I also am of the opinion that 2 Arc rifles + Arc Pistol is more than enough haywire to get the job done. So you could save some points there.

3 Crawler squad with 2 neutrons and 1 icarus seems the best fire support grouping and makes sure they all get that 4++.

A unit of infiltrators with a Xenos Inquisitor, where the inquisitor has rad grenades and the princeps has the Pater Radium.

They'd do a fair amount of damage solo, but then at Initiative step 1 they cause a toughness test at -2 toughness. Inflicting D6 wounds if the test is failed.

Am I missing something? The Onager equipped with Icarus Array seems awesome as an allied force for so many Imperium armies, no?

To take a Maniple, the tax is tiny. Plus the Rangers/Vanguard are useful anyhow. You get 4 heavy support slot, each of which can take 3 Onagers -- so any number up to 12.

The Onager with an Icarus Array is 125 points, and gives you:
- Tanky: AV12 3HP Invulnerable save that you can arrange your dunecrawlers easily to give 2+ (4 units in a diamond within 4" of each other).
- 3 great weapons that give you a total of 8 rolls at 48" with amazing specials like Skyfire on all of them, and Ignores Cover on five S6AP4 rolls. It's just so flexible.
- The Doctrina Imperatives, giving you good Ballistics Skill for 3 rounds.
- You have great flexibility in whether you want your Onagers in a small number of units (to benefit from buffs, for example), or individual units (to spread out targeting).

It just seems perfect to ally if you need some skyfire, or ranged support. And invisibility to it, and that looks like a pretty dangerous threat. Point for point, it looks great against Flyrant spam, plus, it gives you enough rolls and durability to more than pull its weight in points.

This is something I was brainstorming today when I was reading the Codex and assembling some newly bought Skitarii.

The idea here is a strategy that got loosely inspired by a mixture of the Roman Triplex Acies (I know, I know, Sun Tzu fallacy/ancient warfare anachronism fallacy, but hear me out), trying to think of ways to counter Necron Wraith abuse, and the Astra Militarum list with a tank wall and mech infantry I've run in the past.

The Skitarii Vanguard are 10 man units and have triple Arc Rifles to lay down haywire fire onto vehicles as they advance and absorb charges or advance and enact charges against enemy infantry. The Sydonian Dragoons then flank around and charge the melee infantry reactively and try to blitz them with a combination of S8 attacks and the -1T nerf that Skitarii Vanguard give to units locked in melee with them.

Doing the math (by which I mean lazily plugging things into Battlescribe's dice tools) 24 attacks with one of the melee Doctrina Imperative protocols in effect (hence giving 3's to hit) will kill exactly 4.4 Wraiths alone in the first round from the Dragoons alone. Complications and losses are obviously possible to reduce your attack volume but you're still looking at a pretty strong defence against Wraiths once you factor in the Vanguard's attacks as well, providing you've taken something like a maul in there. I guess you could also take Sicaran Rust Stalkers in place of the Sydonian Dragoons, but at the moment I think the Dragoons are more cost effective.

The Onagers with Neutron Lasers can multi-role anti-tank/anti-MC fire/anti-infantry fire, most interesting the latter since with two BS4 Cognis Heavy Stubbers and a S10 AP1 small blast per Onager you should be able to pile on some hurt. For extra firepower, two full Skitarii Ranger squads provide support from the rear with 2 plasma calivers per unit and a transuranic arquebus.

The Onager AA obviously doesn't really have to be anywhere near the formation, but they can do a fairly capable job of shooting at flyers and skimmers. After, I have 2 squads of 5 Rangers with a transuranic arquebus in each for home objective holding and guarding the Warlord.

I can't say for certain whether or not this is a sound idea but this is something I think I'm definitely going to try once I build up a reasonably sized force. What are your thoughts, people?

 Talys wrote:

- Tanky: AV12 3HP Invulnerable save that you can arrange your dunecrawlers easily to give 2+ (4 units in a diamond within 4" of each other)

You can't get a 2++ as the field bonus only affects vehicles in the same squadron - max is 4++ due to the max of 3 per squad

 Massaen wrote:

 Talys wrote:

- Tanky: AV12 3HP Invulnerable save that you can arrange your dunecrawlers easily to give 2+ (4 units in a diamond within 4" of each other)

You can't get a 2++ as the field bonus only affects vehicles in the same squadron - max is 4++ due to the max of 3 per squad

yeah 4++ is the best you're gonna get. although you can also for an additional 25 points per model get IWND so yeah pretty damned durable if you're willing to sink the points into it

 TranSpyre wrote:
A unit of infiltrators with a Xenos Inquisitor, where the inquisitor has rad grenades and the princeps has the Pater Radium.

They'd do a fair amount of damage solo, but then at Initiative step 1 they cause a toughness test at -2 toughness. Inflicting D6 wounds if the test is failed.

I don't think that an Inquisitor can join the Sicarian Infiltrators, given that they have the Infiltrate rule and the Inquisitor doesn't. Also, where are you getting the -2 Toughness? Rad Grenades are -1T; does the relic you mentioned also inflict a -1T penalty?

 Talys wrote:
Am I missing something? The Onager equipped with Icarus Array seems awesome as an allied force for so many Imperium armies, no?

To take a Maniple, the tax is tiny. Plus the Rangers/Vanguard are useful anyhow. You get 4 heavy support slot, each of which can take 3 Onagers -- so any number up to 12.

The Onager with an Icarus Array is 125 points, and gives you:
- Tanky: AV12 3HP Invulnerable save that you can arrange your dunecrawlers easily to give 2+ (4 units in a diamond within 4" of each other).
- 3 great weapons that give you a total of 8 rolls at 48" with amazing specials like Skyfire on all of them, and Ignores Cover on five S6AP4 rolls. It's just so flexible.
- The Doctrina Imperatives, giving you good Ballistics Skill for 3 rounds.
- You have great flexibility in whether you want your Onagers in a small number of units (to benefit from buffs, for example), or individual units (to spread out targeting).

It just seems perfect to ally if you need some skyfire, or ranged support. And invisibility to it, and that looks like a pretty dangerous threat. Point for point, it looks great against Flyrant spam, plus, it gives you enough rolls and durability to more than pull its weight in points.

As has been pointed out, you can only get up to a 4++ due to the rule only affecting vehicles that are squadroned together. Also, even if you could extend it to non-squadron members, it would cap at 3++ with 4 members; remember, they start at 6++, and gain +1 per member, for a total of 4++ in a squadron.

This being said, you are correct. Skitarii seem like a fantastic way to fill the gaps that exist in many Imperial books. Perhaps the greatest benefactors, IMO, will be GKs and Sisters. GKs will be getting better on-field presence if you go DS heavy with the Knights, as well as much need long range firepower. Sisters gain much the same thing, but most critically they gain an anti-air/-skimmer asset, in addition to long-range anti-armor and some nasty fast assault units.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Spoiler:

This is something I was brainstorming today when I was reading the Codex and assembling some newly bought Skitarii.

The idea here is a strategy that got loosely inspired by a mixture of the Roman Triplex Acies (I know, I know, Sun Tzu fallacy/ancient warfare anachronism fallacy, but hear me out), trying to think of ways to counter Necron Wraith abuse, and the Astra Militarum list with a tank wall and mech infantry I've run in the past.

The Skitarii Vanguard are 10 man units and have triple Arc Rifles to lay down haywire fire onto vehicles as they advance and absorb charges or advance and enact charges against enemy infantry. The Sydonian Dragoons then flank around and charge the melee infantry reactively and try to blitz them with a combination of S8 attacks and the -1T nerf that Skitarii Vanguard give to units locked in melee with them.

Doing the math (by which I mean lazily plugging things into Battlescribe's dice tools) 24 attacks with one of the melee Doctrina Imperative protocols in effect (hence giving 3's to hit) will kill exactly 4.4 Wraiths alone in the first round from the Dragoons alone. Complications and losses are obviously possible to reduce your attack volume but you're still looking at a pretty strong defence against Wraiths once you factor in the Vanguard's attacks as well, providing you've taken something like a maul in there. I guess you could also take Sicaran Rust Stalkers in place of the Sydonian Dragoons, but at the moment I think the Dragoons are more cost effective.

The Onagers with Neutron Lasers can multi-role anti-tank/anti-MC fire/anti-infantry fire, most interesting the latter since with two BS4 Cognis Heavy Stubbers and a S10 AP1 small blast per Onager you should be able to pile on some hurt. For extra firepower, two full Skitarii Ranger squads provide support from the rear with 2 plasma calivers per unit and a transuranic arquebus.

The Onager AA obviously doesn't really have to be anywhere near the formation, but they can do a fairly capable job of shooting at flyers and skimmers. After, I have 2 squads of 5 Rangers with a transuranic arquebus in each for home objective holding and guarding the Warlord.

I can't say for certain whether or not this is a sound idea but this is something I think I'm definitely going to try once I build up a reasonably sized force. What are your thoughts, people?

I think that your approximation of dead Wraiths may be pessimistic. If you can charge the Wraiths with the Vanguard first, then the Wraiths will have to endure -1T... and then you charge in with the Dragoons, who are S8/I6 on the charge... and any Wraiths that fail their saves will be gibbed, on account of multi-wound T4 vs S8. If course, I haven't run any numbers in any way, so I may actually be overly optimistic in my prediction.

Also, if expecting to deal with Wraiths, I'd give the Vanguards Taser Goads rather than Arc Mauls- the AP4+Haywire of the Arc Maul isn't going to be helpful against the Wraiths, while the extra potential hits from the Goad probably will.

Anyone else here loving the sound of taking a minimum Vanguard squad armed with 2 Plasma Calivers, then giving the Alpha the Phosphoenix relic pistol? It actually costs less than another Caliver, and will auto-wound anything on 3+ (poison), Str 5 AP2. So yea it may not do as well against light/medium vehicles, but I feel like Plasma Caliver squad targets should be MEQ, TEQ, and MCs anyway. So its kind of like having another Caliver, just cheaper, slightly less range.

The Phosphoenix unfortunately suffers from being a gun with 6'' range that costs a lot.

there's only really one time that you're going to be in that sort of range, and that's if you're about to charge the unit, which you're particularly going to do anyway since you've got relentless on every skitarii. And if its worth being in charge range to shoot, its either guaranteed to die anyway most likely or so weak that the Phosphoenix is massive overkill.

Perhaps not if your shooting at a MC. The range 6 does suck though, I thought it was 12 at first.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Massaen wrote:

 Talys wrote:

- Tanky: AV12 3HP Invulnerable save that you can arrange your dunecrawlers easily to give 2+ (4 units in a diamond within 4" of each other)

You can't get a 2++ as the field bonus only affects vehicles in the same squadron - max is 4++ due to the max of 3 per squad

yeah 4++ is the best you're gonna get. although you can also for an additional 25 points per model get IWND so yeah pretty damned durable if you're willing to sink the points into it

Yeah, you guys are right. When I was reading it, "squadron" turned into "detachment" instead of "unit" mentally. Brain fart

Still, as you and others have said, 4++ is pretty good.

The KillCalade formation can charge 15'' + 3w6''. Oo

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:
The KillCalade formation can charge 15'' + 3w6''. Oo

Where did you get that number from? Shouldn't it be (6+3) + (1d6+3) + (2d6+3)? Which = 15 + 3d6 so never mind :p

Still trying to find a use for some of the relics, is Omniscient Mask or Phase Taser worth taking on a Ruststalker or Infiltrator Princep? I really want to like the Phase Taser, it just seems really powerful for 15 points.

I think relics make sense in 10 man units that are otherwise maxed or also contain your warlord. I think the phase taser may help protect a warlord, and the mask may be worth giving a 10 Sicarian assault squad with a buffed Princeps.

Other than not having objective secured and the obvious gap from missing an HQ, what do you guys see as a glaring weakness in a Skitarii only build?

Lack of ability to survive artillery or an Alpha strike. Skitarii as a standalone army is squishy. Their best armor save is 4+, and their highest AV is 12. Most wounds on a model is 2. Skitarii are very obviously not meant to fight alone, they are a glass cannon, they need some kind of toughness to take the damage. Imperial Knights, Leman Russ tanks from a Steel Host, Chapter Master Smashfether and grav bikers, Centurions with an invuln, units like these are needed to survive fire from the enemy.

 ultimentra wrote:
Lack of ability to survive artillery or an Alpha strike. Skitarii as a standalone army is squishy. Their best armor save is 4+, and their highest AV is 12. Most wounds on a model is 2. Skitarii are very obviously not meant to fight alone, they are a glass cannon, they need some kind of toughness to take the damage. Imperial Knights, Leman Russ tanks from a Steel Host, Chapter Master Smashfether and grav bikers, Centurions with an invuln, units like these are needed to survive fire from the enemy.

Very good points, I suppose they are quite squishy overall. What about running them with Knights and Inquisition?

Knights are gonna soak up a good amount of aggro, while moving up the board and will provide the survivability the Skitarii lack.

At the same time Inquisitors can provide buffs, shoot long range (Ordo Xenos) and give access to Valkyries to transport Skitarii up the board.

I'm thinking something like:

HQ:

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with conversion beamer. (Put him in a squad of Rangers in the backfield) Add a band of henchmen to protect warlord and unlock Valkyries.

Troops:

Vanguard (Arch Rifles)

Rangers camping objectives

Elites:

Ruststalkers in Valkyries getting dropped off on top of the enemy.

FA:


Valkyries for transport and air support
Dragoons formation with taser lances coming in to flank enemy vehicles.

HS:

formation of Onagers with neutron laser/Icarus array mix

Allies:

Knights

Viable??

Ruststalkers I think don't really need a Valkyrie, they are pretty fast as they are.

Also its not an assault vehicle and wont come on till the earliest of turn two. Not getting into assault until turn three or four

dont really need valkyries.

You can also toss the inquisitor with them in a landraider with the princep carrying the toughness test artifact.

Going to give people a rough day.

So the Pater Radium is probably better against larger squads, but I would say that the Phase Taser is the better relic for use against MC's and other big nasty fellows. It's really one of the only "remove from plays" left in the game now. Sure it's AP - but still, that chance of a remove from play could really be worth it. Alot of the big nasties have low initiative as well, so really its-

Pater Radium- Toughness test (better on things that T3)
Phase Taser- Initiative test (better on things that are slow)

Looking at unit builds I was thinking of the following. Vanguard are probably not worth the extra two points. It was a crap shoot at around the same but at a 2 point difference, not worth it IMO(unless running all skitarii)

So I am thinking, 5 mans with arc kit out and -1 cover.

Onagers I was thinking 3 mans, 2 with neutron laser and 1 with lumen gun and cognis and defensive aura. He is there to fire first, hopefully reduce cover before the big guys open up. He also will help the assaulty elements i got get where they need to be.

 Leth wrote:
Looking at unit builds I was thinking of the following. Vanguard are probably not worth the extra two points. It was a crap shoot at around the same but at a 2 point difference, not worth it IMO(unless running all skitarii)

Rangers cost 2 points more than Vanguard. Thus if you think they are equal you would be taking Vanguard, not rangers.

 Leth wrote:

Onagers I was thinking 3 mans, 2 with neutron laser and 1 with lumen gun and cognis and defensive aura. He is there to fire first, hopefully reduce cover before the big guys open up. He also will help the assaulty elements i got get where they need to be.

Interesting idea. I was really trying to figure out why anyone would take anything but 2 Neutron and 1 Icarus, but the lumen gun might be helpful for the Neutrons.

 Exergy wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Looking at unit builds I was thinking of the following. Vanguard are probably not worth the extra two points. It was a crap shoot at around the same but at a 2 point difference, not worth it IMO(unless running all skitarii)

Rangers cost 2 points more than Vanguard. Thus if you think they are equal you would be taking Vanguard, not rangers.

 Leth wrote:

Onagers I was thinking 3 mans, 2 with neutron laser and 1 with lumen gun and cognis and defensive aura. He is there to fire first, hopefully reduce cover before the big guys open up. He also will help the assaulty elements i got get where they need to be.

Interesting idea. I was really trying to figure out why anyone would take anything but 2 Neutron and 1 Icarus, but the lumen gun might be helpful for the Neutrons.

Yea, I meant Rangers are probably not worth taking. One of the issues i run into is that they seem designed to work well with the sniper rifle option, however the sniper rifle is just too many points...

Also the lumen gun can be the front of the triangle so it dies first, throw a cognis on it to avoid Weapon destroyed taking out the main gun and you are good to go.

I don't really understand the weapon mixing, seems like if you take Neutrons its going to be all or nothing if you want that 4+, because 10AP1 blast is an AT or Anti MC weapon. The Phos weapon and Icarus array don't really synergize well with the Neutron laser unless taken in separate squadrons IMO.

 ultimentra wrote:
I don't really understand the weapon mixing, seems like if you take Neutrons its going to be all or nothing if you want that 4+, because 10AP1 blast is an AT or Anti MC weapon. The Phos weapon and Icarus array don't really synergize well with the Neutron laser unless taken in separate squadrons IMO.

My thinking as well. I'd rather take a two-man squadron of Icarus Onagers, or 2x one-man (variable upon # of flyers I expect to face). Losing out on the weaponry of the other two seems mighty wasteful, even if they grant the third a 4++. Almost makes me want to take Ballistarius (Ballastiarii?) for AA duty as they're better shooting at the ground. Almost. Icarus Onagers are simply WAY more effective shooting up.