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ultimentra wrote: I don't really understand the weapon mixing, seems like if you take Neutrons its going to be all or nothing if you want that 4+, because 10AP1 blast is an AT or Anti MC weapon. The Phos weapon and Icarus array don't really synergize well with the Neutron laser unless taken in separate squadrons IMO.
Squadron members do not have to all fire at the same target. So if you want to use the neutrons for AT you can use the Phos weapon for buff your AI elsewhere. If you want to neuter multiwounded heavy infantry, you can use the phos before the Neutrons.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
ultimentra wrote: I don't really understand the weapon mixing, seems like if you take Neutrons its going to be all or nothing if you want that 4+, because 10AP1 blast is an AT or Anti MC weapon. The Phos weapon and Icarus array don't really synergize well with the Neutron laser unless taken in separate squadrons IMO.
Squadron members do not have to all fire at the same target. So if you want to use the neutrons for AT you can use the Phos weapon for buff your AI elsewhere. If you want to neuter multiwounded heavy infantry, you can use the phos before the Neutrons.
considering the rules specifically say that they do I think you might be wrong on that one.
Personally I was looking at it because I would like the ability to re-roll charges and that is a reliable way to get it.
Also because it will fire first, if I can put a hit on it then fire the other weapons they will be at -1 cover save. If something has a 2+ or 3+ cover save you just upped the odds of your other two shots putting the hurt on by a significant margin.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
ultimentra wrote: I don't really understand the weapon mixing, seems like if you take Neutrons its going to be all or nothing if you want that 4+, because 10AP1 blast is an AT or Anti MC weapon. The Phos weapon and Icarus array don't really synergize well with the Neutron laser unless taken in separate squadrons IMO.
Squadron members do not have to all fire at the same target. So if you want to use the neutrons for AT you can use the Phos weapon for buff your AI elsewhere. If you want to neuter multiwounded heavy infantry, you can use the phos before the Neutrons.
considering the rules specifically say that they do I think you might be wrong on that one.
Personally I was looking at it because I would like the ability to re-roll charges and that is a reliable way to get it.
Also because it will fire first, if I can put a hit on it then fire the other weapons they will be at -1 cover save. If something has a 2+ or 3+ cover save you just upped the odds of your other two shots putting the hurt on by a significant margin.
did that change? I remember back in the day they didnt.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
the_scotsman wrote: Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
Lulz.
The OP asked for competitive uses not stuff that makes sense fluff wise.
But who knows, maybe Logan is making a lot of money renting out his pods.
You could only use one pod. You can't say its a competitive list when you depend on unbound listing. Most tournaments don't allow unbound.
If you're going to be playing a friendly game why would you want to play a competitive list? Unless you're that guy.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yea the fact the squad has to fire at the same target makes me kinda meh now about that.
Not quite; you can actually use the rules for the Icarus Array to fire it at a separate target; RAW you could conceivably say that the Icarus can pick entirely separate targets from the rest of the squadron. Remember, you can actually split fire with the Icarus against up to 3 different targets- an Interceptor shot with the Icarus AC, plus two others with the Daedalus and the GRL.
Poly Ranger wrote: 9 vanguard with 2 plasma cavaliers
Inquisitor with tome of vetheric and combi plasma
Pod
Bs7 on drop
= 9.7 wounds average against tyranid t6 3+ mcs. Nice against a fex brood.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That is after saves against the rad.
What's with 9 Vanguard+2 Calivers and the Inquisitor? It's probably more efficient to roll 10 Vanguard with triple Calivers, as the Inquisitor can't benefit from Doctrina Imperatives.
Leth wrote: Looking at unit builds I was thinking of the following. Vanguard are probably not worth the extra two points. It was a crap shoot at around the same but at a 2 point difference, not worth it IMO(unless running all skitarii)
Rangers cost 2 points more than Vanguard. Thus if you think they are equal you would be taking Vanguard, not rangers.
Onagers I was thinking 3 mans, 2 with neutron laser and 1 with lumen gun and cognis and defensive aura. He is there to fire first, hopefully reduce cover before the big guys open up. He also will help the assaulty elements i got get where they need to be.
Interesting idea. I was really trying to figure out why anyone would take anything but 2 Neutron and 1 Icarus, but the lumen gun might be helpful for the Neutrons.
Yea, I meant Rangers are probably not worth taking. One of the issues i run into is that they seem designed to work well with the sniper rifle option, however the sniper rifle is just too many points...
Also the lumen gun can be the front of the triangle so it dies first, throw a cognis on it to avoid Weapon destroyed taking out the main gun and you are good to go.
Rangers are great against infantry that shoot from cover/hold position out of range of most units because of their 30'' weapon reach. Things like Firewarriors, Guardsmen, mini-Immortals, Devastator archetypes, even Broadsides at a stretch with some blind luck and 2 units will take some fire they'd unappreciative of from them. When you need them to take objectives, they can get there quicker than Vanguards because of their MTC rule
Except that it requires that those types be out of cover to get the most benefits, which is not likely to happen. However if you are planning on walking across the table I think they are much better.
Like I said, in Skitarii only they have a place, nor do I think they are strictly worse. But I think the issue is that the vanguard are cheaper, are a better special weapon delivery platform, and when you want to go MSU builds that is what you want. In addition they have rules that help as you get closer.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yea the fact the squad has to fire at the same target makes me kinda meh now about that.
Not quite; you can actually use the rules for the Icarus Array to fire it at a separate target; RAW you could conceivably say that the Icarus can pick entirely separate targets from the rest of the squadron. Remember, you can actually split fire with the Icarus against up to 3 different targets- an Interceptor shot with the Icarus AC, plus two others with the Daedalus and the GRL.
Yea was wondering that, it said even if you use the autocannon to intercept at target, you can fire the 2 other weapons at different targets. So it has a built in splitfire?
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yea the fact the squad has to fire at the same target makes me kinda meh now about that.
Not quite; you can actually use the rules for the Icarus Array to fire it at a separate target; RAW you could conceivably say that the Icarus can pick entirely separate targets from the rest of the squadron. Remember, you can actually split fire with the Icarus against up to 3 different targets- an Interceptor shot with the Icarus AC, plus two others with the Daedalus and the GRL.
Yea was wondering that, it said even if you use the autocannon to intercept at target, you can fire the 2 other weapons at different targets. So it has a built in splitfire?
No. You can fire it at one target using interceptor during the movement phase the deep striking unit comes in, and then during your shooting phase you don't have to continue firing at whatever you intercepted, that's all it's saying. No split fire anywhere in there.
the_scotsman wrote: Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
Lulz.
The OP asked for competitive uses not stuff that makes sense fluff wise.
But who knows, maybe Logan is making a lot of money renting out his pods.
You could only use one pod. You can't say its a competitive list when you depend on unbound listing. Most tournaments don't allow unbound.
If you're going to be playing a friendly game why would you want to play a competitive list? Unless you're that guy.
What in the heck are you talking about? Lol. Space Wolves have Drop Pods in the Fast Attack section. Space Wolves can take 3 Fast Attack choices in their normal detachment. Therefore, 3 pods can be taken that aren't dedicated transports. That can be filled with units from whatever non-SW force you are also taking. Like Skitarii for example.... It's bound. I'm new to 7th edition and even I know this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/13 21:29:02
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yea the fact the squad has to fire at the same target makes me kinda meh now about that.
Not quite; you can actually use the rules for the Icarus Array to fire it at a separate target; RAW you could conceivably say that the Icarus can pick entirely separate targets from the rest of the squadron. Remember, you can actually split fire with the Icarus against up to 3 different targets- an Interceptor shot with the Icarus AC, plus two others with the Daedalus and the GRL.
Poly Ranger wrote: 9 vanguard with 2 plasma cavaliers
Inquisitor with tome of vetheric and combi plasma
Pod
Bs7 on drop
= 9.7 wounds average against tyranid t6 3+ mcs. Nice against a fex brood.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That is after saves against the rad.
What's with 9 Vanguard+2 Calivers and the Inquisitor? It's probably more efficient to roll 10 Vanguard with triple Calivers, as the Inquisitor can't benefit from Doctrina Imperatives.
The tome of vetheric gives them monster hunter against nids though. That's why it is more effective.
Another good transport option for vanguard would be the adeptus astartes storm wing dataslate: a stormraven with strafing run accompanied by 2 stormtalons, no strings attached.
or the chimaera from your inquisitorial retinue (coteaz with plasma servitors in a bastion)
the_scotsman wrote: Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
Lulz.
The OP asked for competitive uses not stuff that makes sense fluff wise.
But who knows, maybe Logan is making a lot of money renting out his pods.
You could only use one pod. You can't say its a competitive list when you depend on unbound listing. Most tournaments don't allow unbound.
If you're going to be playing a friendly game why would you want to play a competitive list? Unless you're that guy.
What in the heck are you talking about? Lol. Space Wolves have Drop Pods in the Fast Attack section. Space Wolves can take 3 Fast Attack choices in their normal detachment. Therefore, 3 pods can be taken that aren't dedicated transports. That can be filled with units from whatever non-SW force you are also taking. Like Skitarii for example.... It's bound. I'm new to 7th edition and even I know this.
Blood Angels do it better...
Flesh Tearers detachment from exterminates gives up to 6 FA pods, with small price of (most likely) a scout squad and a Librarian
Experience is something you get just after you need it The Narkos Dynasty - 15k Iron Hands - 12k The Shadewatch - 3k Cadmus Outriders - 4k Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k
the_scotsman wrote: Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
Lulz.
The OP asked for competitive uses not stuff that makes sense fluff wise.
But who knows, maybe Logan is making a lot of money renting out his pods.
You could only use one pod. You can't say its a competitive list when you depend on unbound listing. Most tournaments don't allow unbound.
If you're going to be playing a friendly game why would you want to play a competitive list? Unless you're that guy.
What in the heck are you talking about? Lol. Space Wolves have Drop Pods in the Fast Attack section. Space Wolves can take 3 Fast Attack choices in their normal detachment. Therefore, 3 pods can be taken that aren't dedicated transports. That can be filled with units from whatever non-SW force you are also taking. Like Skitarii for example.... It's bound. I'm new to 7th edition and even I know this.
Blood Angels do it better...
Flesh Tearers detachment from exterminates gives up to 6 FA pods, with small price of (most likely) a scout squad and a Librarian
True enough, dont really need FNP for the skitarii units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/13 22:47:03
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
the_scotsman wrote: Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
Lulz.
The OP asked for competitive uses not stuff that makes sense fluff wise.
But who knows, maybe Logan is making a lot of money renting out his pods.
You could only use one pod. You can't say its a competitive list when you depend on unbound listing. Most tournaments don't allow unbound.
If you're going to be playing a friendly game why would you want to play a competitive list? Unless you're that guy.
What in the heck are you talking about? Lol. Space Wolves have Drop Pods in the Fast Attack section. Space Wolves can take 3 Fast Attack choices in their normal detachment. Therefore, 3 pods can be taken that aren't dedicated transports. That can be filled with units from whatever non-SW force you are also taking. Like Skitarii for example.... It's bound. I'm new to 7th edition and even I know this.
Blood Angels do it better...
Flesh Tearers detachment from exterminates gives up to 6 FA pods, with small price of (most likely) a scout squad and a Librarian
Yup. I wasn't familiar with the new Blood Angels codex at all until a day ago. So yeah, they give out even more pods. Not sure why Johnny thought only one pod was allowed.
you could also do that by going infiltrator scouts a Dread Libby in a pod
Experience is something you get just after you need it The Narkos Dynasty - 15k Iron Hands - 12k The Shadewatch - 3k Cadmus Outriders - 4k Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k
Is anyone thinking that a full ten man squad with 3 plasma calivers is not the most points efficient option? Mostly because the calivers are so darn expensive. That's 190 points spent on 10 T3 models with a 4+ save.
At that point cost for a squad we are in marine territory. 10 marines and two plasma guns is cheaper. 10 SW with 2 plasmas and one combi plasma is also 190. Sure the "alpha strike" is reduced some, but the marines won't die from a stiff breeze the turn after they come down which mean they are much more likely to be of use in later turns.
If people are going with pods to deliver their skitarii it seems like a 5 man vanguard squad with 2 plasma calivers makes more sense. That's only 115 points for 6 plasma shots. No marines can do something like that at that price point...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/14 17:21:32
Super Newb wrote: Is anyone thinking that a full ten man squad with 3 plasma calivers is not the most points efficient option? Mostly because the calivers are so darn expensive. That's 190 points spent on 10 T3 models with a 4+ save.
At that point cost for a squad we are in marine territory. 10 marines and two plasma guns is cheaper. 10 SW with 2 plasmas and one combi plasma is also 190. Sure the "alpha strike" is reduced some, but the marines won't die from a stiff breeze the turn after they come down which mean they are much more likely to be of use in later turns.
If people are going with pods to deliver their skitarii it seems like a 5 man vanguard squad with 2 plasma calivers makes more sense. That's only 115 points for 6 plasma shots. No marines can do something like that at that price point...
The firepower is totally different. 2 plasma calivers is = 3 plasmaguns, but with greater range. 3 calivers is more than 4 plasmaguns again with more range. Of course 2 calivers cost the same as 4 plasmaguns and 3 is 6 plasmaguns.
Think about CSM havocs or chosen. Units that can field 4-5 plasmaguns. Huge strike potential but also going to get gunned down immidiately. Comapritavely Vanguard are better off, with more abblative wounds and a few extra wounds from the rad guns.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
That may be true super newb, but Space marines and Space wolves can't be BS7, 6, or 5 for a turn, and that combi-plasma is a one use weapon. Sure the Armor save is better, but we get more shots and they are more accurate for at least 3 turns. That's the tradeoff. Skitarii are a glass cannon army.
Super Newb wrote: Is anyone thinking that a full ten man squad with 3 plasma calivers is not the most points efficient option? Mostly because the calivers are so darn expensive. That's 190 points spent on 10 T3 models with a 4+ save.
At that point cost for a squad we are in marine territory. 10 marines and two plasma guns is cheaper. 10 SW with 2 plasmas and one combi plasma is also 190. Sure the "alpha strike" is reduced some, but the marines won't die from a stiff breeze the turn after they come down which mean they are much more likely to be of use in later turns.
If people are going with pods to deliver their skitarii it seems like a 5 man vanguard squad with 2 plasma calivers makes more sense. That's only 115 points for 6 plasma shots. No marines can do something like that at that price point...
The firepower is totally different. 2 plasma calivers is = 3 plasmaguns, but with greater range. 3 calivers is more than 4 plasmaguns again with more range. Of course 2 calivers cost the same as 4 plasmaguns and 3 is 6 plasmaguns.
Lol no, not totally different. They are S7 AP2 Gets Hot. The only real difference is the range. 18 inches. And yes they are 3 shot. But they also cost twice as much as a plasma gun.* My point is plasma calivers are very expensive. 10 Vanguard are 100 points. 3 Plasma Calivers are 90 points. Squad cost is almost doubled with them.
Obviously my marine example has less of an alpha strike, which I noted. But I also noted they'd hang around longer (or take more firepower to kill) - so that's the trade off. Just something to think about if people take these guys in a rent-a-pod list...
*Remember, they cost twice as much but they don't shoot twice as much as plasma guns at 0-12 inches and at 18.001-24 inches.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/14 18:17:34
Super Newb wrote: Is anyone thinking that a full ten man squad with 3 plasma calivers is not the most points efficient option? Mostly because the calivers are so darn expensive. That's 190 points spent on 10 T3 models with a 4+ save.
At that point cost for a squad we are in marine territory. 10 marines and two plasma guns is cheaper. 10 SW with 2 plasmas and one combi plasma is also 190. Sure the "alpha strike" is reduced some, but the marines won't die from a stiff breeze the turn after they come down which mean they are much more likely to be of use in later turns.
If people are going with pods to deliver their skitarii it seems like a 5 man vanguard squad with 2 plasma calivers makes more sense. That's only 115 points for 6 plasma shots. No marines can do something like that at that price point...
The firepower is totally different. 2 plasma calivers is = 3 plasmaguns, but with greater range. 3 calivers is more than 4 plasmaguns again with more range. Of course 2 calivers cost the same as 4 plasmaguns and 3 is 6 plasmaguns.
Lol no, not totally different. They are S7 AP2 Gets Hot. The only real difference is the range. 18 inches. And yes they are 3 shot. But they also cost twice as much as a plasma gun. My point is plasma calivers are very expensive. 10 Vanguard are 100 points. 3 Plasma Calivers are 90 points. Squad cost is almost doubled with them.
Obviously my marine example has less of an alpha strike, which I noted. But I also noted they'd hang around longer (or take more firepower to kill) - so that's the trade off. Just something to think about if people take these guys in a rent-a-pod list...
yes but 5 havocs with 4 plasma is 135. 6 chosen with 5 plasma is 165. Much more similar to the Vanguard in terms of price to firepower. Of course those CSM have to drive up in a rhino to unload.
10 marines with 2 plasma offers MUCH less firepower but also much more surviablity. You are landing a tactical squad that might kill 2-3 models when it lands. This vs a 3 Caliver unit where your goal is to delete a unit.
Perhaps better to compare IG vets with plasmaguns. More similar than SM 10 man squads.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
Super Newb wrote: Is anyone thinking that a full ten man squad with 3 plasma calivers is not the most points efficient option? Mostly because the calivers are so darn expensive. That's 190 points spent on 10 T3 models with a 4+ save.
At that point cost for a squad we are in marine territory. 10 marines and two plasma guns is cheaper. 10 SW with 2 plasmas and one combi plasma is also 190. Sure the "alpha strike" is reduced some, but the marines won't die from a stiff breeze the turn after they come down which mean they are much more likely to be of use in later turns.
If people are going with pods to deliver their skitarii it seems like a 5 man vanguard squad with 2 plasma calivers makes more sense. That's only 115 points for 6 plasma shots. No marines can do something like that at that price point...
The firepower is totally different. 2 plasma calivers is = 3 plasmaguns, but with greater range. 3 calivers is more than 4 plasmaguns again with more range. Of course 2 calivers cost the same as 4 plasmaguns and 3 is 6 plasmaguns.
Lol no, not totally different. They are S7 AP2 Gets Hot. The only real difference is the range. 18 inches. And yes they are 3 shot. But they also cost twice as much as a plasma gun.* My point is plasma calivers are very expensive. 10 Vanguard are 100 points. 3 Plasma Calivers are 90 points. Squad cost is almost doubled with them.
Obviously my marine example has less of an alpha strike, which I noted. But I also noted they'd hang around longer (or take more firepower to kill) - so that's the trade off. Just something to think about if people take these guys in a rent-a-pod list...
*Remember, they cost twice as much but they don't shoot twice as much as plasma guns at 0-12 inches and at 18.001-24 inches.
Calivers are going to be expensive no matter what, so distributing them around in a more piecemeal fashion isn't going to change much. Moreover, the sheer firepower of a Triple Caliver Vanguard squad is insane. Between Radium Carbines and the Calivers, you can drop most of a Carnifex Brood in a single turn. Or kill a Dreadknight in one go.
You can almost kill a Riptide in one round if it has FNP, but you're pretty much fethed if the Riptide manages to Nova its shield... but Riptides are damn near unkillable for everyone, so what else is new.
Also note that Vanguard can up-engage quite significantly- due to the special trait of the Radium Carbines, they can potentially put wounds onto a Wraithknight- something a GH squad would struggle with.
Exergy wrote: Perhaps better to compare IG vets with plasmaguns. More similar than SM 10 man squads.
You know what, you are right. I just don't know what anything costs in the IG codex lol.
Factoring the Doctrines in the "alpha strike-yness" of a full Plasma Caliver Vanguard Squad probably does make up for the points cost and lack of durability of the unit. Provided you can find something worth 225 points to shoot at! (squad, calivers and pod cost). Or drop down in a way so your plasma dudes don't get wiped off the board on turn 2...
Exergy wrote: Perhaps better to compare IG vets with plasmaguns. More similar than SM 10 man squads.
You know what, you are right. I just don't know what anything costs in the IG codex lol.
Factoring the Doctrines in the "alpha strike-yness" of a full Plasma Caliver Vanguard Squad probably does make up for the points cost and lack of durability of the unit. Provided you can find something worth 225 points to shoot at! (squad, calivers and pod cost). Or drop down in a way so your plasma dudes don't get wiped off the board on turn 2...
IG vets are 70 points, so 10 with 3 plasma guns is 115. About the same as your 2 caliver unit.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
The Stormlord is open-topped for the purposes of transport I believe... so, 30 of these guys in a superheavy straight into the opponents deployment?
Experience is something you get just after you need it The Narkos Dynasty - 15k Iron Hands - 12k The Shadewatch - 3k Cadmus Outriders - 4k Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k
3000
Iron Hands - 12k 
The Shadewatch - 3k 
Cadmus Outriders - 4k 